If You Don't Want Low Testosterone DO NOT FAST

[paymanz]

I like to know more about what benefits ray thinks fasting may have.

But to me I think eating when hungry is much better than fasting. Avoid overeating, listen to body...

I wish ray had more emphasis on this,

Some people feel they have to eat for theoretical nutrition, rather than for hunger. And if you force yourself to eat when you're not hungry, that can lead to stress and sluggishness of your intestine.

 

[Regina]

There is a particular user on this forum who had been proposing fasting as a way of "resetting the receptors".

The idea of course being that if you have low levels of a hormone you will experience an increased number of the proteins that the hormone interacts with. I am highly skeptical of this idea, and think it's dangerous advice. One area that this almost certainly isn't true in is the androgenic hormones.

As somebody who has spent a few years posting on bodybuilding/fitness forums I can tell you that when this comes to androgen this is absolutely not the case. When the good fellas over at the misc, getbig, anabolicminds, and steroidology forums look in to this topic they usually find the same, consistent results: the more androgens you have the more ARs you have.

This article perfectly sums up what you need to know.

In summary: Very high (bodybuilder doses) amounts of androgens increase the density of androgen receptors, without question. There have been some studies where going from zero to normal levels of testosterone have shown a decrease in androgen receptors, this could very well be because of estrogen (estrogen downregulates AR receptors itself).

The most important information is below:

-very high levels of testosterone/androgen increases AR density, this is almost 100% certain

-this has been confirmed in many actual humans (because there are many men who use steroids) and consistent increases in AR density is observed

-we have had very few chances to observe the effects of going from low to normal testosterone on male AR density, since lowering T so much would be bad for the subject's health

-given high level androgen use's effect on ARs it would seem likely that the decease in estrogen could explain the increase of ARs in extremely low testosterone environment

The idea that the decrease in testosterone seen in people who fast for long periods will be made up for by increased AR density rests on very little evidence, in fact the evidence points to receptors liking high testosterone, and proliferating in a high-androgen environment.

If you care about having optimal hormones DO NOT FAST.

Thanks! Virtually every person I have ever trained aikido/zen with who followed the fasting regimens has lost their supple energy. I'm dropping by my old dojo tonight as I did on Friday. One super fibrotic irritable person after another. All of them wear knees wraps, elbow wraps, often have plantar fascitis. They go down to the mat for pins in an odd, but now predictable, awkward disjunct pieces. And then there is that weird energy that allows them to take 3 classes in a row.
Also, when I did intermittent fasting as per Jaminet and trained only 4 clasees/wk, I sure did a great impersonation of a fast oxidizer. Yet, now I am slow oxidizer?

 

[Regina]

It’s ok they have all the hormones just insensitive to the "good" hormones but sensitive to the bad,stuck in this mode.
Black and white,black and white solution.

Yes.

 

[paymanz]

One proposed explanation is that the steroids that the body likes have a positive feedback/sensitization mechanism. So, androgens are in that group and I think so it thyroid. Estrogen and cortisol are NOT.

Thanks haidut,

It is interesting if it be like that.

 

[Diokine]

I think that in a large part of our population, you have such terrific gut irritation that essentially any input will result in a stress response - or more specifically movement towards a chronically adapted stress state. This must be addressed. Serious restriction of food is one way to deal with this, and I've found it fantastically effective. I think you can rationalize and reason away the benefits using whatever logic you'd like, but I think that submitting yourself to a system that is founded in incomplete knowledge and lack of experiment is extraordinarily dangerous.

Regarding androgen receptors - I think it's very important to distinguish between membrane (GPCR type) and nuclear receptors in this class, which is the estrogen receptor family. Membrane type receptors can increase in density in a hyper-androgenic environment. Not so much for nuclear receptors. It's important to note that the opposite situation can also be true depending on the reductive environment of the cell.

The environments controlling the density of these receptors is extremely convoluted and anyone claiming to have bottom line knowledge is probably misinformed. Besides, the receptors are not the bottom line anyway - the effect in the cell (and the entire organism) is what you're looking for, and it requires a lot more input than just receptor density.

We should also distinguish the types of fasting we're talking about here. I think it makes sense to figure out what works for you. I go long periods without eating much solid food and I've had no trouble whatsoever gaining significant muscle and strength - moreso than in any period in my life.



"If what you are doing isn't working, maybe you should evaluate the way you think about everything"

 

[dookie]

@AretnaP - Then there's also the argument that can be made: why do you want high testosterone? I always felt best with a lower testosterone on my blood tests. Less testosterone -- less substrate for estrogen aromatization. In fact, if you could argue that if estrogen goes down with fasting (I haven't seen good evidence of this), then maybe fasting could be beneficial.

@haidut - Didn't Peat say that estrogen also has a positive feedback loop? I think the stress hormones can be self-sustaining, especially estrogen creates several "cycles" which are hard to break.

Also the safety of "fasting" should be put in context. Maybe fasting a few days on water is safer than starting to play around with hormone supplements, risking long term side-effects? Thyroid and progesterone may work well for some people, but in others, side-effects can last for weeks or more

 

[Drareg]

I think that in a large part of our population, you have such terrific gut irritation that essentially any input will result in a stress response - or more specifically movement towards a chronically adapted stress state. This must be addressed. Serious restriction of food is one way to deal with this, and I've found it fantastically effective. I think you can rationalize and reason away the benefits using whatever logic you'd like, but I think that submitting yourself to a system that is founded in incomplete knowledge and lack of experiment is extraordinarily dangerous.

Regarding androgen receptors - I think it's very important to distinguish between membrane (GPCR type) and nuclear receptors in this class, which is the estrogen receptor family. Membrane type receptors can increase in density in a hyper-androgenic environment. Not so much for nuclear receptors. It's important to note that the opposite situation can also be true depending on the reductive environment of the cell.

The environments controlling the density of these receptors is extremely convoluted and anyone claiming to have bottom line knowledge is probably misinformed. Besides, the receptors are not the bottom line anyway - the effect in the cell (and the entire organism) is what you're looking for, and it requires a lot more input than just receptor density.

We should also distinguish the types of fasting we're talking about here. I think it makes sense to figure out what works for you. I go long periods without eating much solid food and I've had no trouble whatsoever gaining significant muscle and strength - moreso than in any period in my life.



"If what you are doing isn't working, maybe you should evaluate the way you think about everything"

Sometimes it’s wise to accept something’s might not work in the current limited time span we have,the issue of time in all this ignored also.

Peats quote on receptor proteins pulling into the cell but always depending on the context of the outside and inside environment is good to note ,a complete empty head posted that in a thread without recognizing what it actually means.
Not one word of epigentic expression in all of this or the obvious host of other factors that are acting intertwined to ignore androgens supposedly within range in their bodies,finasteride and ssri’s Have potentially tightened up histones.

Ignoring then the immune system plugged into the environment and ignoring the effect your own mindset has on physiology is not helpful for "receptors" also.

 

[cyclops]

Then there's also the argument that can be made: why do you want high testosterone? I always felt best with a lower testosterone on my blood tests. Less testosterone -- less substrate for estrogen aromatization. In fact, if you could argue that if estrogen goes down with fasting (I haven't seen good evidence of this), then maybe fasting could be beneficial.

I think most men feel better with higher testosterone.

 

[Drareg]

@AretnaP - Then there's also the argument that can be made: why do you want high testosterone? I always felt best with a lower testosterone on my blood tests. Less testosterone -- less substrate for estrogen aromatization. In fact, if you could argue that if estrogen goes down with fasting (I haven't seen good evidence of this), then maybe fasting could be beneficial.

@haidut - Didn't Peat say that estrogen also has a positive feedback loop? I think the stress hormones can be self-sustaining, especially estrogen creates several "cycles" which are hard to break.

Also the safety of "fasting" should be put in context. Maybe fasting a few days on water is safer than starting to play around with hormone supplements, risking long term side-effects? Thyroid and progesterone may work well for some people, but in others, side-effects can last for weeks or more

I think the points being made are relative to the extreme context spoken about. People shouldn’t "play around" with progesterone or thyroid to be fair,if they have issues after playing with them it’s not a surprise.

It sounds like the scenario you mention is for those have a preferred way of living/experiencing ,lower testosterone and fasting sounds like a slower lifestyle,experiencing new meanings is also important before critiquing other ways.
Current contemporary western countries can afford the luxury for males with lower testosterone higher estrogen and fasting,veganism ,juice diets etc If hypohead Kim jung Un goes nuclear said way of living could get found out very quickly.

 

[Luann]

Once you start to associate those feelings as positive because they are meant to balance out a highly stressful situation, they become the norm by design as people will intentionally create stressful situations in order to induce the hormones. But the body is not meant to have those highly stressful situations all the time, which is why things like war are so incredibly destructive, particularly to the everyday people who have to endure all of the loss and trauma.

This is exactly what I think causes a lot of bad decision making. People need the increase in blood flow from adrenaline and they subconsiously live life on the edge so they get that rush. But I don't agree that people always "intentionally" make this kind of situation happen. It's like they have been conditioned to do it by their own bodies.

 

[DuggaDugga]

@AretnaP - Then there's also the argument that can be made: why do you want high testosterone? I always felt best with a lower testosterone on my blood tests. Less testosterone -- less substrate for estrogen aromatization. In fact, if you could argue that if estrogen goes down with fasting (I haven't seen good evidence of this), then maybe fasting could be beneficial.

@haidut - Didn't Peat say that estrogen also has a positive feedback loop? I think the stress hormones can be self-sustaining, especially estrogen creates several "cycles" which are hard to break.

Also the safety of "fasting" should be put in context. Maybe fasting a few days on water is safer than starting to play around with hormone supplements, risking long term side-effects? Thyroid and progesterone may work well for some people, but in others, side-effects can last for weeks or more

Saying you should lower your Testosterone so it doesn't get aromatized to estrogen is like saying you should lower cholesterol to prevent its oxidation and contribution to atherosclerosis. Why lower a natural and otherwise health-promoting substance to prevent its conversion to a harmful substance when you could just remove or downregulate the modulating factor, the aromatase enzyme in the first example, oxidative stesss in the latter.

 

[Such_Saturation]

It was on one of the KMUD interviews. Some guy asked him about intermittent fasting. He said only intermittent and only in young/healthy people can there be a benefit.

Did he propose a mechanism?

 

[Dobbler]

what about 1-5 day fasts done therapeutically , meaning good nutrition before and after

 

[Dhair]

@AretnaP - Then there's also the argument that can be made: why do you want high testosterone? I always felt best with a lower testosterone on my blood tests. Less testosterone -- less substrate for estrogen aromatization. In fact, if you could argue that if estrogen goes down with fasting (I haven't seen good evidence of this), then maybe fasting could be beneficial.

@haidut - Didn't Peat say that estrogen also has a positive feedback loop? I think the stress hormones can be self-sustaining, especially estrogen creates several "cycles" which are hard to break.

Also the safety of "fasting" should be put in context. Maybe fasting a few days on water is safer than starting to play around with hormone supplements, risking long term side-effects? Thyroid and progesterone may work well for some people, but in others, side-effects can last for weeks or more

I personally think that the issue of testosterone aromatizing into estrogen is overblown on this forum, with not enough emphasis placed on the importance of T in general.
It seems that there is a kind of positive feedback loop between T and dopamine synthesis in the brain. Many people, including myself, experience severe mental health issues as a direct result of low T, and this phenomenon seems to be ignored by the medical community at large, which is deeply disturbing. My endocrinologist seems to be clueless about this mechanism, despite the fact that there is legitimate medical literature on the subject.
There are many young men who have become depesonalized and suicidal, only to discover that they were suffering from low T, and their symptoms disappear after weeks to months of TRT. Search for "bignoknow" on YouTube. His story is harrowing and not at all unique.
@haidut has suggested that T is nothing more than a prohomone for DHT, and most people on TRT who benefit are just feeling the effects of a DHT increase. Well, that may be, but it seems to marginalize the importance of T, especially since I have not seen any evidence of DHT being particularly dopaminergic. Also, I believe haidut mentioned a study wherein men with total T levels under 400ng/dl had trouble conceiving children, and this is within the "normal" range.
There is a stigma regarding testosterone in the medical community, and I'm not sure where it stems from.

 

[alywest]

This is exactly what I think causes a lot of bad decision making. People need the increase in blood flow from adrenaline and they subconsiously live life on the edge so they get that rush. But I don't agree that people always "intentionally" make this kind of situation happen. It's like they have been conditioned to do it by their own bodies.

Point taken with the word intentionally, I would restate and say subconsciously, too. It's subconscious but not totally unintentional either, if that makes sense. Like they are going after a "feeling," not nessarily aware that it's adrenaline that they're addicted to so to speak. But it's not a focused feeling, either, it's usually overlooked because the person is so concentrated on some goal, like getting skinny, having huge muscles, etc. And some people are addicted to negativity because they don't know the feeling of calm, and they will go around believing that they are doing well because it's all they know.

 

[alywest]

testosterone =

estrogen =

From an actual medical textbook

 

[DuggaDugga]

Did he propose a mechanism?

This is what I'd like to know as well.
I know @James IV is in favor of cortisol, so he may be able to provide his position on the matter.

 

[tca300]

@AretnaP Awesome post!

Ray talks about men coming from concentration camps, and when they started eating again developed breasts.
I fasted regularly for years ( between ages 16 -21 ) and all it did for me was make my regular temps around 95-96°F, caused erectile dysfunction at first, then led to a complete lack of interest in women all together. I lucked out and didn't grow boobs though.

He also mentions fasting shuts down the livers ability to detoxify. I noticed after fasting that as I resumed eating I smelled awful for a few days.

 

[HDD]

Herb Doctor: Right, that's the NH4+. Alright, how realistic do you think it is to consume. Do you think that consuming things that have an excess of potassium, magnesium and calcium can actively work to raise the pH of someone's environment?

RP: I think the main function is sparing protein that you would use for the kidneys to help to regulate the minerals. And for example, when a person's fasting for several days, they will generally loose more protein than fat because the stress hormones rise and they live on a pure meat diet when they're fasting as their tissues break down. And if during that fast if you just drink minerals - salt water, baking soda, potassium, magnesium and calcium - any of the alkaline minerals will radically spare the amount of protein that you would be consuming and wasting. So a fast is much less stressful and harmful if you're getting the alkaline minerals.
Alkalinity vs Acidity 2012, KMUD : The Herb Doctors

 

[haidut]

Didn't Peat say that estrogen also has a positive feedback loop?

Not at the "receptor" level but by positive cross-feedback. Estrogen stimulates cortisol and cortisol activates aromatase, which makes more estrogen. I think only androgens and thyroid upregulate their own receptors when higher doses are given. Androgens and thyroid also cross upregulate each other - i.e. it is well known that strong androgens like DHT, androsterone, T, etc stimulate conversion of T4 into T3 and higher thyroid function stimulated more androgen synthesis.