Has Anyone Tried Sodium Acetate ? (for SIBO?)

[Amazoniac]

The medical and metabolic consequences of administration of sodium acetate - ScienceDirect

"Acetate and D-lactate are normally present in human blood at levels below 0.1 mM. To understand how 35 to 45 mM concentrations of acetate and D,L-lactate came into widespread clinical use, it is helpful to understand the history of the development of parenteral fluids. It seems extremely unlikely if all parenteral fluids were to be designed de novo today, that they would have their present compositions. Rather the compositions of the parenteral fluids in use today reflect: the availability of components at the time they were first formulated, the costs and legal difficulties of meeting regulations now required for making even the most logical changes in existing compositions, and most importantly an inattention by physicians to the large deviations from physiological limits in the composition of the routine parenteral fluids they are prescribing and the biochemical and pathological consequences of their use."

"One hundred and fifty years ago in 1832, Thomas Latta gave the first recorded parenteral infusion of saline to a patient dying of cholera with dramatic life saving consequences (3). From that beginning, parenteral fluids became such an integral part of medical, surgical and pediatric practice they are simply accepted as a given by most physicians and scientists. It is startling to recognize that the compositions of the basic fluids in use in clinical medicine today were developed between 50 and 150 years ago, and remain unaltered and ignored today."

"In order to prevent hyperchloremic acidosis accompanying large volume infusions of normal saline, Ringers' lactate was formulated with D,L-lactate because that was the only form of lactate available at the time and use of bicarbonate alone was incompatible with addition of calcium. Sodium acetate was used later in parenteral fluids on the theory that it was the metabolic equivalent of sodium bicarbonate. These D,L-lactate or acetate containing fluids were more convenient than the more physiological Krebs-Henseleit because, if exposed to the atmosphere, they did not result in the precipitation of CaCO3. While all of this makes sense in an historical context, the continued use now of acetate and D,L-lactate makes absolutely no sense in the light of the availability of more physiologically compatible anions and the ease with which CO2 can be contained in fluids. It is now clear that the metabolic processes which convert acetate into bicarbonate result in profound alterations in cellular homeostasis. It is these alterations which may account for much of the reported toxicity of the current parenteral fluids."

"At low levels, acetate is a normal metabolite in man. It is ingested as food, and produced in the gut as the result of bacterial metabolism. Acetate is metabolized in liver, heart and other tissues by acetyl CoA synthase" "The acetyl CoA formed is subsequently metabolized in the reactions of the Krebs tricarboxylic acid cycle to be ultimately converted to CO2 and water."

There are many details further on, so read the entire document, you won't regret.
@Diokine @Such_Saturation

 

[Amazoniac]

Sodium Acetate as a Replacement for Sodium Bicarbonate in Medical Toxicology: a Review

"A shortage of sodium bicarbonate reported by the FDA in March 2012 arose from a "demand increase" in the drug [1]. The shortage recovered for the majority of sodium bicarbonate products during the first and second quarter of 2013, but drug shortages have increasingly plagued the medical community over the last several years, and future product availability remains unpredictable for sodium bicarbonate. Shortages of drugs such as diazepam, metoclopramide, ondansetron, phenytoin, and etomidate that have a great impact on emergency patient care are increasingly prevalent [1]. Effective alternatives exist when most common medications are in short supply. Sodium bicarbonate is unique as a therapeutic agent; even though it is a vital intervention in the treatment of several poisonings, it has no clearly accepted alternative in clinical use. Primary outcomes in sodium bicarbonate therapy include serum alkalinization, urine alkalinization, and sodium ion loading."

"In medical toxicology practice, sodium bicarbonate is most commonly used in the treatment of tricyclic antidepressant (TCA) and salicylate poisoning; it is also effective as an adjuvant therapy for cocaine-induced ventricular dysrhythmias [2] and poisonings with quinine, chloroquine, and other type 1A and 1C antidysrhythmics [3]; methanol and ethylene glycol [4]; 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid and other chlorphenoxy herbicides [5, 6]; and chlorine gas [7]."

"In brief, a solution that increases the body’s strong ion difference (the concentration of strong cations minus strong anions) will increase serum pH [15]. After injection and cellular uptake, the two-carbon acetate anion forms acetyl CoA and enters the citric acid cycle; the final by-products, carbon dioxide and water, are in a rapid equilibrium with bicarbonate through the catalyst activity of carbonic anhydrase [16, 17]. Thus, the infusion of sodium acetate increases the strong ion difference by causing a net increase in cations, as the acetate anion is metabolized out of the system. Based on Stewart’s theory, the increased strong ion difference leads to alkalemia. This is the basis for many balanced crystalloid solutions that use acetate (Plasma-Lyte®) or lactate (lactated Ringer’s solution) to partially replace chloride anions. Sodium bicarbonate infusion can be thought of in a similar manner, whereby the end result is added sodium cations, an increased strong ion difference, and, in turn, increased pH. Sodium bicarbonate metabolism, however, is dependent on the near instant catalyst action of the ubiquitous enzyme, carbonic anhydrase. In contrast, acetate has numerous and complex metabolic pathways; this may reflect adverse events associated with sodium acetate overload."

"Sodium acetate metabolism was thought to occur primarily in the liver, but that has been disproved by several studies [18, 19]." "Acetate metabolism occurring in skeletal muscle accounts for the observation that liver disease does not adversely affect the handling of infused sodium acetate [19, 20]."

"We do not recommend the routine use of sodium acetate when sodium bicarbonate is available; during shortages, however, sodium acetate provides an inexpensive and apparently safe alternative. At our institution, one ampule of 50 mEq sodium bicarbonate costs $0.76, compared to one ampule of 100 mEq sodium acetate, which costs $1.25. Sodium acetate is stable in solution compared to sodium bicarbonate; a solution of sodium bicarbonate stored in a polyolefin bag begins to lose buffering capability after only 2 days due to diffusion of carbon dioxide through the bag’s surface, while a solution of Plasma-Lyte® containing 27 mM/L of sodium acetate, stored in a polyolefin bag, remains stable for 3 years [32, 33]."

 

[Makrosky]

Thanks Amazoniac! One thing I don't understand : they seem to imply that people use sodium acetate because they cannot use sodium bicarbonate BUT sodfum acetate is made from vinegar and sodium bicarbonate so it's obvious they had access to sodium bicarbonate on it's own otherwise they couldn't make sodium acetate. Or am I missing something?

 

[Amazoniac]

Thanks Amazoniac! One thing I don't understand : they seem to imply that people use sodium acetate because they cannot use sodium bicarbonate BUT sodfum acetate is made from vinegar and sodium bicarbonate so it's obvious they had access to sodium bicarbonate on it's own otherwise they couldn't make sodium acetate. Or am I missing something?

Sodium acetate - Wikipedia
It is sometimes produced in a laboratory experiment by the reaction of acetic acid, commonly in the 5–8% solution known as vinegar, with sodium carbonate ("washing soda"), sodium bicarbonate ("baking soda"), or sodium hydroxide ("lye", or "caustic soda"). Any of these reactions produce sodium acetate and water.

 

[EIRE24]

No idea, but probably yes in small numbers, or greater if they're allowed to thrive. You can implement points 2, 3 and 4, but if point 1 isn't taken care of, problems will eventually appear.

William F. Koch Research Site

"The toxin causative to cancer, originates primarily in the colon and is the product of anaerobic germ activity. The observations of Colonel H. Hallilay, the British surgeon, who spent some twenty years as Army Surgeon among the native Indians, prove that where frequent loose bowel movements are the daily habit, neither cancer, gastric ulcer, appendicitis or gall bladder trouble is to be found. The dietary prevention of colonic stasis, as accomplished by Hay and Bulkley, also demonstrate that cancer and some other diseases have their primary origin in colon toxemia. Thus it is settled that the anaerobic germ chemistry of the colon, through stasis, can produce a general systemic poisoning productive of cancer. Occluded tonsilar crypts are a certain but less frequent source of the poison."

"Constipation is a great American evil. When we, eat more food than can be properly digested and absorbed by the small intestine, the excess passes into the large intestine where it can support the growth of disease or putrefactive germs. This situation is aggravated by the American habit of fast eating and the swallowing of chunks of food that do not permit of a thorough penetration by and mixture with the digestive juices, but reach the large intestine undigested and unpurified by the action of these juices; to ferment or putrefy and thus supply material for germ growth. Ochsner, Sambon and others have contended that the cancer germ is carried into the system with our food, hence the importance of determining how the germ, gets into our food.

Putrid and fermented material retained in the colon is a constant source of poisons that; on being absorbed into the system, act fundamentally in the causation of many of our present day chromic ailments, including cancer, gastric ulcer, high blood pressure, neuritis, appendicitis and gall bladder troubles. Peoples, like the Hindu, who living on their native diet and have three or four loose bowel movements a day know not of the above mentioned troubles. But as soon as the Hindu adopts the English diet and habits of eating, they areas subject to these ailments as are the English and Americans. Very often putrid material remains plastered against the walls of the colon for years, and the individual is not aware of his constipation, Sticky stools spell incomplete digestion and indicate the likelihood of disease."

@Prophet - you mentioned in one of your interviews the fastest the food goes through the intestines, except for diarrhea, the safer you're in terms of toxins.

Wouldnt agree with this at all. His diet recommendations are basically vegetarian.

 

[Pointless]

So I've been doing this for the suggested 3 weeks. I use less than recommended, though. I put 1 tsp of baking soda with 1 T of apple cider vinegar and mix that in with my juice/gelatin concoction. Then I take about 4 days to drink this.

I've had some surprising benefits:
It increases the frequency of arousal. Dopaminergics like Lisuride cause a rebound impotence within 2-3 days, and this hasn't happened in 3 weeks, so I'm glad I've found a dopaminergic strategy that doesn't have this rebound effect.
increase in time to ejaculation. I didn't get this so much with salt, so I suspect it has more to do with dopamine than sodium.
decrease in adrenaline for sure. No more anger when I get hungry. I feel very relaxed.
possible decrease in bloating, but not sure. Many factors at work here.

Things I thought it might affect, but it doesn't:
still no decrease in coated tongue
no significant improvement in hemorrhoids, sore throat/voice cracking, tender abdomen, digestive tract inflammation
no significant improvement in skin health, frequent urination, hair loss, sore joints

other effects:
It increases my appetite and makes me crave pizza and ice cream
If I use too much, I get loose stools, body aches, and shivering

I think I'll continue with this at the current dose and increase my dose of Kuinone. I dropped it down to my normal dose of 2 drops/day to experiment with the sodium acetate, but when I did that, the improvement in the things mentioned above stalled, so I think that the Kuinone will get me more improvement in those areas than the sodium acetate.

 

[Makrosky]

So I've been doing this for the suggested 3 weeks. I use less than recommended, though. I put 1 tsp of baking soda with 1 T of apple cider vinegar and mix that in with my juice/gelatin concoction. Then I take about 4 days to drink this.

I've had some surprising benefits:
It increases the frequency of arousal. Dopaminergics like Lisuride cause a rebound impotence within 2-3 days, and this hasn't happened in 3 weeks, so I'm glad I've found a dopaminergic strategy that doesn't have this rebound effect.
increase in time to ejaculation. I didn't get this so much with salt, so I suspect it has more to do with dopamine than sodium.
decrease in adrenaline for sure. No more anger when I get hungry. I feel very relaxed.
possible decrease in bloating, but not sure. Many factors at work here.

Things I thought it might affect, but it doesn't:
still no decrease in coated tongue
no significant improvement in hemorrhoids, sore throat/voice cracking, tender abdomen, digestive tract inflammation
no significant improvement in skin health, frequent urination, hair loss, sore joints

other effects:
It increases my appetite and makes me crave pizza and ice cream
If I use too much, I get loose stools, body aches, and shivering

I think I'll continue with this at the current dose and increase my dose of Kuinone. I dropped it down to my normal dose of 2 drops/day to experiment with the sodium acetate, but when I did that, the improvement in the things mentioned above stalled, so I think that the Kuinone will get me more improvement in those areas than the sodium acetate.

Thanks for sharing! What's the exact dose? 1tsp of baking soda + 1tablespoon of vinegar?? Isn't that too little vinegar???

 

[Pointless]

Thanks for sharing! What's the exact dose? 1tsp of baking soda + 1tablespoon of vinegar?? Isn't that too little vinegar???

Yeah there's baking soda left over for sure, but I feel that it helps with the "rawness" like sore throat and loose stools as I'm sensitive to acidic foods. I could be wrong though.

 

[RobertJM]

I wonder if this is the why I constantly crave tomato ketchup so much, all the time. I don't crave tomatoes or sugar (or the combination; i.e, pasta sauces). I can never resist ketchup though. Even if I am strictly 'dieting', I can not continue on any protocol without ketchup.

 

[Makrosky]

Yeah there's baking soda left over for sure, but I feel that it helps with the "rawness" like sore throat and loose stools as I'm sensitive to acidic foods. I could be wrong though.

How are you doing with this ? Still take it ?

 

[Amazoniac]

If I'm not wrong, pectins tend to favor acetic acid production when fermented throughout the gut. Marmalade has a lot of pectin.

 

[Amazoniac]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jsfa.1049/epdf

Spoiler: Quote

--
Incubation of selected fermentable fibres with feline faecal inoculum: correlations between in vitro fermentation characteristics and end products. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Pointless]

How are you doing with this ? Still take it ?

No I stopped, at least for now. It seems to exacerbate hemorrhoids.

 

[Amazoniac]

Why not sodium bicarbonate with aspirin? It will provide acetic and salicylic acid..

 

[Tzheng2012]

Yeah there's baking soda left over for sure, but I feel that it helps with the "rawness" like sore throat and loose stools as I'm sensitive to acidic foods. I could be wrong though.

How are you doing with this ? Still take it ?

Have tou tried adding honey? A popular health drink is to take a tblsp of apple cider vinegar and a tblsp of honey 30 min before meals. Its said to prep the stomach for digestion. If your low on stomach acid, itll boost it. If you have too much stomach acid, itll lower it. It makes some sense because the vinegar will lower ph of the stomach, and honey reduces stomach acid. So i guess equal parts of each kinda lets the body balance itself?

Anyway the reason i mention adding honey is because when you take straight acv it burns like heck, but if you add equal parts of honey you dont feel anything. Honey acts like a buffer basically, i think it gives a sort of protective coating. I know in traditional chinese medicine they mix herbs with honey when they want to slow the release of the herbs into the body.

 

[Such_Saturation]

This is just normal acute effects of baking soda/vinegar/salt/CO2.

 

[Tzheng2012]

This is just normal acute effects of baking soda/vinegar/salt/CO2.

But with their powers combined!

Does that make a difference? I dunno!

 

[Such_Saturation]

But with their powers combined!

Does that make a difference? I dunno!

Super Peat Combo Beat

 

[Amazoniac]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5353632/

"One strategy to reduce the use of antibiotics is the use of non-antibiotic alternatives whenever possible3. Our forefathers have used such alternatives for thousands of years. For example, to disinfect water and preserve food, copper and silver were used as early as ancient Egypt (2000 BC)4. It is also told that the great Persian King Cirrus (~600 B.C) refused to drink water that was not transported in silver containers. Similarly, Hippocrates, who has been referred to as the father of modern medicine, recognized the antimicrobial efficacy of transition metals and used silver-containing ointments to treat wounds5. The use of transition metals as antibacterial agents continues today, e.g., in coating the surfaces and medical devices and in topical treatment of wounds, burns, and rashes6,7. However, their use is limited to particular settings as well as by considerations of effectiveness, cost, toxicity and possible detrimental environmental effects on soil and water reservoirs8.

An example of a more environmentally-friendly antibacterial alternative is the organic acid acetate: the main component of vinegar. Like transition metals, organic acids have been used for centuries to inhibit bacterial growth and carry the additional beneficial property of being non-toxic to humans. Consequently, organic acids are one of the most common food preservatives today9,10,11. However, relative to bona fide antibiotics, both transition metals and organic acids have weak antibacterial activity when used separately."

"Organic acids are known to form complexes with transition metals (e.g., zinc-acetate, copper-acetate and copper-butyrate22,23,24). The growth experiments described above were conducted at physiological pH at which the organic acids are almost entirely de-protonated and negatively charged. Potentially, under these conditions, they can form electro-neutral complexes with the positively-charged transition metals that are present in growth media. Formation of such electro-neutral complexes would facilitate the permeation of both organic acids and transition metals and would explain the observed toxicity."

"The worldwide rise in bacterial infection-associated morbidity underscores the need to implement novel approaches to limit bacterial growth41. Antibiotics remain the treatment of choice but their excessive and injudicious use has led to high incidences of drug and multidrug-resistant bacterial strains42. Moreover, agricultural use of antibiotics and bactericides results in environmental damage and can lead to widespread and unpredicted harm to wildlife43. It is therefore crucial to find alternatives to conventional antibiotics. In this work we present an inexpensive and viable alternative by simply using combinations of compounds that have relatively low toxicity to humans, animals, and plants. This particular approach is simple, readily applicable and effective. Organic acids are perhaps the most common food preservatives and it would be very simple to add zinc or copper (ordinary dietary supplements) as an additional preservative.

We showed that the common food-borne pathogen Salmonella enterica is poorly inhibited by both organic acids and transition metals, yet completely inhibited by their combination. This was also true for all the other bacterial species that we tested (including pathogens such as Pseudomonas aeruginosa and Vibrio cholerae). We therefore suggest that food preservation can be improved by exploiting the synergistic effect of combining simple organic acids and metals. A similar revision to strategies to protect crops is suggested. World-wide, copper is routinely sprayed on crops, orchards and flowers40. It is often the only available preventive measure in places where antibiotics sprays are banned. However, the copper doses are limited by their toxicity towards plants44 and the efficacy of the sprays are compromised by the emergence of copper-resistant bacterial strains45. We have consistently observed that copper readily combines with all tested organic acids to form a highly potent bactericide that inhibits the growth of the plant pathogens Erwinia amylovora, Pseudomonas syringae and Xanthomonas euvesicatoria. Copper sprays are non-aqueous emulsions that contain fatty acids and other organic compounds and therefore addition of organic acids to these emulsions is straightforward. This sets the stage for a fast, easy and safe transition to a better way to ensure bactericidal effects with limited toxicity to the plants and ecosystems alike.

It is vital to consider the effect that combinations of metals and organic acids may have on the environment as well as on plant or animal cells. The synergistic nature of the inhibitory effect allows the use of much lower concentrations of organic acids and of metals than those used for each of them individually. Thus, the distribution of metal pollutants from crop sprays as well as concentrations of food preservatives may actually decrease by combining organic acids with metals. Furthermore, an adult human can tolerate digestion of up to 10 mg of copper and up to 40 mg of zinc per day46, while copper sprays of potato plants, for example, contain 2.5 grams/liter concentrations of copper and can tolerate up to 5 grams/liter44."

"In summary, organic acid and transition metal combinations synergistically inhibit the growth of a broad range of bacteria including growth of several important pathogens. Application of such combinations may provide a cost-effective, simple and efficient alternative to current bactericidal and antibiotic agents. We believe that these results are relevant to any setting where microbial growth control is of essence."​

https://raypeatforum.com/community/...-a-powerful-alternative-to-antibiotics.17505/

 

[churchmouth]

Did the original author (F$&* portion control) share why it is beneficial for SIBO?