DHT Causes Hair Loss, You Sure About That?

[mrchibbs]

Like it or not, people with moderate to aggressive MPB are simply not going to maintain without some sort of anti-androgen or 5ARI, whether it's topical or systemical.

This has been covered soooooooo many times. The claim of sensitivity to androgens is the most ludicrous and mainstream garbage out there. That's why it's so ridiculously funny that you come here and act like we are "miles behind on hair loss knowledge" and you somehow have good understanding of baldness.

 

[MitchMitchell]

Like it or not, people with moderate to aggressive MPB are simply not going to maintain without some sort of anti-androgen or 5ARI, whether it's topical or systemical.

That’s because exaggerated 5ar IS a problem. And the root cause of this is stress hormones going crazy.

This is the only forum on the internet where people think more 5ar (and DHT) is a desirable outcome. They can feel free to label facts as shilling. I don’t care. You can’t educate the world. But it’s nice to have a few more voices give dreamers a reality check.

 

[MitchMitchell]

The claim of sensitivity to androgens is the most ludicrous and mainstream garbage out there.

based on what? We know very well that prolactin and GH stimulate the androgen receptor.

Are you going to say that GH&prolactin are desirable now? I remember you arguing that they should be kept in check just like all pituitary hormones, which makes sense.

I just can’t understand double standards in the name of some arbitrary authoritarianism. Ray’s philosophy is to debate everything not just categorize some hormones as good or bad and run with it.

 

[mrchibbs]

based on what? We know very well that prolactin and GH stimulate the androgen receptor.

Are you going to say that GH&prolactin are desirable now? I remember you arguing that they should be kept in check just like all pituitary hormones, which makes sense.

I just can’t understand double standards in the name of some arbitrary authoritarianism. Ray’s philosophy is to debate everything not just categorize some hormones as good or bad and run with it.

Once again, I don't know what your point is. What doesn't stimulate the androgen receptor? They are hormones, and interact with cells in every tissue.

Yes, 5-aR appears to be upregulated in stress, probably as a way to compensate for the testosterone deficiency of hypogonadism. I never said that DHT or 5-aR should be actively promoted, but by the same token, they should not be inhibited or demonized, at least not through highly synthetic molecules.

The sensitivity to androgen has always been a leap of faith to try to reconcile the fact that serum DHT or testosterone, is not associated with baldness, that no experiment has been able to prove anything except an anti-inflammatory role in tissues for DHT or Testosterone.

I'm not 100% clear on your perspective, but it seems to me that the mainstream view has long focused on androgens in isolation of everything else that's happening in the pathology of baldness. i.e the stress cascade involving aldosterone, cortisol, prostaglandins, mast cells etc. This is a much more interesting discussion than the androgen theory, which is pure dogma.

 

[JKX]

33.18

 

[mrchibbs]

@JKX

 

[DhtAssassin]

https://www.researchgate.net/public...uctase_as_Indicators_of_Male-Pattern_Baldness

The ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone was significantly greater (mean 46.41, p < 0.001; mean 35.83, p < 0.001, respectively) in the hair of balding fathers (n = 19, age 28-50 y) and their sons (n = 16, age 8-16 y) than in the hair of the nonbalding control subjects (mean 9.17 and 10.47, respectively).

Basically for some reason natural anti-androgen levels are plumetted in MPB hairs in some people.


What else experiments do we need? Flutamide, clacosterone, RU588, finasteride, dutasteride all have studies for positive effect in MPB.

The anti-androgen angle is the only one which was given any results. It's ridiculous to claim otherwise by quoting some random papers. Let's not fall to hairdut levels.

 

[mrchibbs]

https://www.researchgate.net/public...uctase_as_Indicators_of_Male-Pattern_Baldness

The ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone was significantly greater (mean 46.41, p < 0.001; mean 35.83, p < 0.001, respectively) in the hair of balding fathers (n = 19, age 28-50 y) and their sons (n = 16, age 8-16 y) than in the hair of the nonbalding control subjects (mean 9.17 and 10.47, respectively).

Basically for some reason natural anti-androgen levels are plumetted in MPB hairs in some people.


What else experiments do we need? Flutamide, clacosterone, RU588, finasteride, dutasteride all have studies for positive effect in MPB.

The anti-androgen angle is the only one which was given any results. It's ridiculous to claim otherwise by quoting some random papers. Let's not fall to hairdut levels.

Don't demean Georgi, that will get you nowhere.

And I've presented you with several references which contradict this in the past. If you want us to get back on that merry go round we can but I'm not sure that will be very productive.

There have been many results without "anti-androgens" (which should really be described as "progestogenic"). I'm not going to get into an argument again, but Rob English has plenty of pictures of regrowth from lifestyle+massages and yes he's 100% trustworthy, even if I don't agree with everything he says.

 

[hominidnumber9]

Not to hi-jack the thread or anything but I'm currently in the process of testing the pro-androgen hair growth theory on myself (yes, pro). I've cut out all DHT suppressing products and the only topicals I'm using are all natural essential oils that promote circulation. Supplement wise I'm taking nettle root which does have a week DHT inhibiting effect but it mainly boosts free testosterone and inhibits estrogen. I'm simultaneously cycling daily progesterone every other week, which is kind of counter intuitive, but I've never incorporated that before so I want to see what it does. If I see results in another couple of months I will be posting before and after photos since I took some right before starting this approach.

All of this stuff is on top of an otherwise healthy diet and lifestyle.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I'm also doing a 15 day no-fap reset to make sure all of my androgen receptors are upregulated.

 

[mrchibbs]

Not to hi-jack the thread or anything but I'm currently in the process of testing the pro-androgen hair growth theory on myself (yes, pro). I've cut out all DHT suppressing products and the only topicals I'm using are all natural essential oils that promote circulation. Supplement wise I'm taking nettle root which does have a week DHT inhibiting effect but it mainly boosts free testosterone and inhibits estrogen. I'm simultaneously cycling daily progesterone every other week, which is kind of counter intuitive, but I've never incorporated that before so I want to see what it does. If I see results in another couple of months I will be posting before and after photos since I took some right before starting this approach.

All of this stuff is on top of an otherwise healthy diet and lifestyle.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I'm also doing a 15 day no-fap reset to make sure all of my androgen receptors are upregulated.

Always nice to see people experimenting! What topical oils do you use? Do you have longstanding hair loss? If so it might also be good to tackle the fibrosis/calcification which sun exposure, vitamin K2 and some mechanical stimulation. I think cycling progesterone is the best approach, much like all steroids, they aren't really supposed to be at a constant level, but instead rise according to need. I think as part of a healthy lifestyle, progesterone topically can have some antifibrogenic effects.

 

[hominidnumber9]

Always nice to see people experimenting! What topical oils do you use? Do you have longstanding hair loss? If so it might also be good to tackle the fibrosis/calcification which sun exposure, vitamin K2 and some mechanical stimulation. I think cycling progesterone is the best approach, much like all steroids, they aren't really supposed to be at a constant level, but instead rise according to need. I think as part of a healthy lifestyle, progesterone topically can have some antifibrogenic effects.

Coconut oil with rosemary and peppermint essential oils. I'm primarily a diffuse thinner and it has remained pretty consistent over the last 5 years, not getting much worse or better. When it's sunny I get sun and I take vitamin D/K2 combo. I also do massage, and some derma rolling around the front hairline.

Also, I take quite a few different supplements consistently and have been for many years so I didn't list all of that stuff here. I consider them non-factors since I've only changed a few key elements to see if I notice a shift one way or the other.

 

[mrchibbs]

Coconut oil with rosemary and peppermint essential oils. I'm primarily a diffuse thinner and it has remained pretty consistent over the last 5 years, not getting much worse or better. When it's sunny I get sun and I take vitamin D/K2 combo. I also do massage, and some derma rolling around the front hairline.

Don't overdo the massage/dermarolling, especially the later should be just 1x a week. I would switch to MCT oil over coconut oil, as there is some evidence coconut oil can feed fungi on the skin. (I was stunned by this). But MCT oil doesn't have that problem, and still has caprylic acid. Peppermint oil seems to have a potent effect on hair growth, so many essential oils do as well. Cayenne is interesting to experiment with, licorice root extract as well, eugenol also promising. But of course that can get complicated quickly.

As a diffuse thinner, low vitamin D could make or break or regrowth, so make sure your D levels are high (at least 50ng/ml).

 

[hominidnumber9]

Don't overdo the massage/dermarolling, especially the later should be just 1x a week. I would switch to MCT oil over coconut oil, as there is some evidence coconut oil can feed fungi on the skin. (I was stunned by this). But MCT oil doesn't have that problem, and still has caprylic acid. Peppermint oil seems to have a potent effect on hair growth, so many essential oils do as well. Cayenne is interesting to experiment with, licorice root extract as well, eugenol also promising. But of course that can get complicated quickly.

As a diffuse thinner, low vitamin D could make or break or regrowth, so make sure your D levels are high (at least 50ng/ml).

Lol, I won't, I've made that mistake already. I'll defiantly check out MCT oil. I DO NOT want to feed any fungus up there..

I'll have to get my levels checked. Last time I did was in 2018 and they were normal but I don't remember the exact number. I go outside for long walks a lot in the summer months. It's almost winter where I live so I'm supplementing right now. Last year I did tanning but didn't like the effect it had on my skin long term.

 

[JDreamer]

We're back at "androgen sensitivity" LOL ......

 

[mrchibbs]

We're back at "androgen sensitivity" LOL ......

 

[JDreamer]

Androgen sensitivity is definitely the mafia of hair loss theory. LOL

 

[mrchibbs]

Lol, I won't, I've made that mistake already. I'll defiantly check out MCT oil. I DO NOT want to feed any fungus up there..

I'll have to get my levels checked. Last time I did was in 2018 and they were normal but I don't remember the exact number. I go outside for long walks a lot in the summer months. It's almost winter where I live so I'm supplementing right now. Last year I did tanning but didn't like the effect it had on my skin long term.

I recommend Michael Holick's book on Vitamin D (and his research). He does say tanning booths can be a better alternative than no sun at all. I personally feel like supplementation can be mostly miss rather than hit. A good chunk of the people here have (often unrecognized) liver/renal/intestinal issues and have poor metabolic status so they probably don't convert the oral vitamin D very well.

The skin really is the best way to synthesize vitamin D. I recently ordered a Sperti Lamp, which is expensive but I feel like that will be worth it in the long run. It's probably better when combined with red light therapy as well to compensate for the effect of the the UVB.

I recently remember that when I was 19-20 I use to go to the tanning booth, not to get a tan but precisely to get better vitamin D levels and feel better. So I would only do a few minutes a time to get that light pink skin. It's been almost a decade and I haven't gone back since but I can't say I've felt great since then either. I live in a place with long winters too.

 

[hominidnumber9]

I recommend Michael Holick's book on Vitamin D (and his research). He does say tanning booths can be a better alternative than no sun at all. I personally feel like supplementation can be mostly miss rather than hit. A good chunk of the people here have (often unrecognized) liver/renal/intestinal issues and have poor metabolic status so they probably don't convert the oral vitamin D very well.

The skin really is the best way to synthesize vitamin D. I recently ordered a Sperti Lamp, which is expensive but I feel like that will be worth it in the long run. It's probably better when combined with red light therapy as well to compensate for the effect of the the UVB.

I recently remember that when I was 19-20 I use to go to the tanning booth, not to get a tan but precisely to get better vitamin D levels and feel better. So I would only do a few minutes a time to get that light pink skin. It's been almost a decade and I haven't gone back since but I can't say I've felt great since then either. I live in a place with long winters too.

My overall vitality and mental state was definitely better than previous winters. I could really FEEL it when I left the salon that I had done something good for my body. But then I started getting sun spots on my face and some of them still haven't faded fully. I was pushing the timer a little bit too much I think, and I wasn't using any fancy tanning lotions. I ended up scaling back to like 4 or 5 minutes. I think I topped out around 10. This was in a "level 3" stand-up booth.

The vitamin D supplement I have seems to be working. I feel good for the most part when I don't think too much about the dumpster fire going on outside my front door. I wish there was skin damage free tanning though.

 

[mrchibbs]

My overall vitality and mental state was definitely better than previous winters. I could really FEEL it when I left the salon that I had done something good for my body. But then I started getting sun spots on my face and some of them still haven't faded fully. I was pushing the timer a little bit too much I think, and I wasn't using any fancy tanning lotions. I ended up scaling back to like 4 or 5 minutes. I think I topped out around 10. This was in a "level 3" stand-up booth.

The vitamin D supplement I have seems to be working. I feel good for the most part when I don't think too much about the dumpster fire going on outside my front door. I wish there was skin damage free tanning though.

Yeah I get it. Plus, people who have had supbar health/metabolism for a few years like most of us on this forum typically have higher fatty acid synthase, and free fatty acids, along with PUFA, iron, and toxic metal accumulation.I think the 10 minute mark may have been pushing it. I remember I would only go about 5 minute at a time. If I was to do I again I would ensure to use coconut oil topically before and be well fed, giving blood etc.

Ray mentioned a study with rabbits were they were either fed corn or coconut oil, had their back shaved and then exposed to sunlight, and the coconut oil group had no lipofuscin formation or skin aging at all.

The Sperti UVB lamp has only UVB and no UVA and therefore no tanning is possible, but it does raise vitamin D levels. In conjunction with red light, it should cause skin aging at all. I personally feel like I need it because while I have been able to raise vit D levels from a low of 15ng/ml during my illness to maybe 30-40ng/ml in the summer.Moreover, I still am not able to tan like I use to, and I haven't really been able to get my vitamin D in the range I want (60-80ng/ml) or at the very least above 50ng/ml.

So I felt like I needed to step it up a little bit, especially in this context where travelling to a sunny place is impractical.

 

[Kenny]

lolll you should be a comedian

i guess we are going to restart the condescending and evidenceless dance of hating on the guy for pointing out fin is the only approach that consistently demonstrates results.

I mean come on man.

in entire "ray peat/danny roddy" sphere have been like 2 guys who got "regrowth". Half of whom had a severe vitamin D deficiency they corrected.

Offering some compelling evidence of why fin doesn't work, or why something else does work, would be productive.

Saying lololo im right you're wrong isn't productive.