Depression, Melatonin, Wifi, Oh My

[cmdshiftdel]

Background - For the past 20 years (since puberty), I struggled (and I mean STRUGGLED) with major depression. A combination of coming to Jesus & Peating & lifestyle changes nipped it in the bud rather radically. I went from quasi suicidal to perfectly happy and content for years. Now its suddenly creeping back…and I may have some interesting intel.

The Story - I recently have been researching EMFs effects on the body because I have strong 24/7 wifi in my home, the new 5G system is coming, and the fact that for the past 10+ years I have been using my iPhone profusely on a daily basis. I came across a few lectures and studies that concerned me. I will list them below.

One of the things I was surprised to find out is that blue light is not the only thing disrupting melatonin, but wifi and rf radiation from our cell phones and modern tech also do the same thing. Forgetting Ray Peat’s admonition that melatonin can cause depression or exacerbate it, I decided to get some sublingual 300mcg melatonin and take a QUARTER of it 5 hours before desired onset of sleep time. Why? Because for the past 10+ years I have suffered from pretty severe circadian rhythm disruption, preferring to go to sleep at 3 am and wake around 11 am. I thought maybe all my tech + Peating had lowered melatonin too much and I wanted to experiment.

Well, surprisingly it worked, I was able to bring up my sleep time 1 hour after taking just one dose, and without anymore melatonin I have maintained that sleep time for days. Last night, wishing to progress a bit further, I took another quarter (75 mcg). And indeed, I glanced at my clock right before falling asleep and I had advanced 45 minutes. I have never been able to do this before, even with sleeping pills, nor with any Peat strategies unfortunately (although I still take magnesium before bed anyway).

The problem - both days I took the melatonin I woke up a different person. I woke up feeling like the same depressed, anxious person I was in college when I thought about committing suicide on an every other day basis. I had to remind myself this morning - its just the melatonin - this will go away - but I tell you I’m still freaked out.

Here’s the rest of the problem - I eliminated wifi from my home in an effort to reduce EMF exposure and even bought an adapter to “hardwire” my iPhone to work over ethernet. Now I’m wondering if my depression free years had something to do with the increasing exposure I had to wifi and tech that actively suppresses melatonin. The problem is, EMF’s effects don’t stop there, they can be very dangerous and are known to damage DNA & can cause birth defects and/or developmental problems in children, not to mention cancer. As someone who will be trying to conceive this year, I’m concerned because several studies linked autism to where the mother slept and found a possible correlation between autistic children and the mother sleeping in a bed exposed to high emf from wifi routers, smart meters, etc. Also, I did find I had certain symptoms I had never connected to wifi router radiation have stopped since eliminating it - namely heart palpitations and chronic fatigue has improved radically.

The conundrum - I can’t in good conscious keep wifi in my house while I get ready to try to conceive - removing it also has helped a lot with my fatigue and heart issues - but what if removing it also makes me feel depressed again? I cannot bear it! How can I make sure my melatonin levels don’t rise naturally and induce depression now that I’ve removed these active suppression devices (wifi, iPhone, etc)? I couldn’t really find anything from Ray Peat on EMFs, although he doesn’t care for certain light bulbs and that’s a kind of EMF.

Please forgive my rambling, I have melatonin head this morning :-/ One last thing - I don't think I need to say this but just in case - please don't put a router by your head to suppress melatonin. Very bad idea...

Here are two lectures that got me researching EMFs:
Prof. Martin Pall - How Wifi & Other EMFs Cause Biological Harm


Dr. Devra David - The Truth About Mobile Phone and Wireless Radiation

 

[Cirion]

@ilikecats has had great success putting LOTS of high powered incadescant lights in his house to avoid melatonin. I plan to replicate this myself soon.

And yes, EMF's truly are nefarious, I think most of us have no clue or just don't care. I realized this myself recently too. I NEVER use wi-fi on my router anymore, and most of the time my phone remains entirely OFF unless I'm expecting a phone call or am going to call someone, and when I do its ALWAYS on speaker phone (DON'T USE YOUR PHONE IN YOUR CAR).

If you haven't already ,read Nicolas Pineault's book on EMF's, it's a great eye opening read. I use a tri-field EMF meter and was shocked to say the least when I measured lots of things with it.

I now sleep with at least a dim light in my bedroom (Used to black it out) to avoid too much melatonin. Preferably something with mostly or all red light.

 

[cmdshiftdel]

I'm reading his book right now! And I also bought the Trifield TF2 and was SHOOK. My microwave is basically a cell tower in regards to rf. Can't even speak of my induction stove top. Sigh.

I used to sleep with an alarm clock that had a red LED night light until I measured it with the Trifield - much more EMF than expected and right by my head...I will see if I can find just a simple red led night light and start the light bulb change out...

 

[Jackrabbit]

Try getting an incandescent brooder bulb and lamp at a hardware store or try one of the red lights recommended on this forum. Use it as soon as you wake up in the morning. It should help to repair your thymus gland which is usually the first thing to get destroyed in the presence of radiation. 75 mcg imho is a HUGE dose of melatonin, I’ve taken 3-6 mcg at a time and had to stop after a few days. The red light used consistently should help reset your circadian rhythm and restore the thymus. That should also help you recover from what is probably melatonin overload, but it may take a few days. Also work on speeding up transit time in the intestine with carrot salad or even laxatives if you have to. Ray has cited numerous studies showing that wheat bran and/or laxatives helped to lower serum estrogen, which should help with conception. Do you take any progesterone?

 

[Jackrabbit]

I’ve also been trying to make it a habit to keep my phone in airplane mode unless I’m actively using the internet or have time to respond to or read texts.

 

[Sergey]

Have been thinking about supressing melatonin too. Both melatonin and agomelatine make me very depressed.

I recently ran urine neurotransmitters test, and while serotonin, 5HIAA, dopamine, NE and adrenaline were all low (at the bottom of "normal" range), melatonin was at the maximum "normal".

Is there anything else other than bright light in the morning to reduce its synthesis?

 

[Makrosky]

I'm reading his book right now! And I also bought the Trifield TF2 and was SHOOK. My microwave is basically a cell tower in regards to rf. Can't even speak of my induction stove top. Sigh.

I used to sleep with an alarm clock that had a red LED night light until I measured it with the Trifield - much more EMF than expected and right by my head...I will see if I can find just a simple red led night light and start the light bulb change out...

For chronic problems like depression, anxiety, biorythms disturbed... I think microwaves, induction stoves, etc... are not the problem. You are not exposed to them for long periods of time.

Now, your bed or work place... that is a different thing.

How are your EMF measures with the trifield in the bed ?

Beware Trifield TF2 only measures up to 6Ghz so you are not catching them all.

 

[Cirion]

I disagree on microwaves. Microwaves emit such powerful RF that its effects can be *significantly* measured as far away as 30-50 ft. And by significant, I mean at least 100 times the recommended exposure level for long term. I tested this myself. Ever since then, I threw away my microwave.

 

[Makrosky]

I disagree on microwaves. Microwaves emit such powerful RF that its effects can be *significantly* measured as far away as 30-50 ft. And by significant, I mean at least 100 times the recommended exposure level for long term. I tested this myself. Ever since then, I threw away my microwave.

Yeah, I just made the stupid assumption that OP's microwave use is similar to mine : maybe 3 minutes a day and I stay away from it. But maybe she uses it for much longer.

 

[Cirion]

Even still, 3 minutes at 100x recommended exposure is like being exposed to max recommended exposure of 100x3 = 300 minutes or 5 hours. I'll pass, but that's just me.

 

[Jackrabbit]

Ray Peat said on kmud I believe that the microwave was ok if you’re at least two feet away. Still I rarely use mine for more than 1 minute at a time, about once a day

 

[Jackrabbit]

Have been thinking about supressing melatonin too. Both melatonin and agomelatine make me very depressed.

I recently ran urine neurotransmitters test, and while serotonin, 5HIAA, dopamine, NE and adrenaline were all low (at the bottom of "normal" range), melatonin was at the maximum "normal".

Is there anything else other than bright light in the morning to reduce its synthesis?

What time of day was the urine taken? Do you feel groggy during the day?

 

[Makrosky]

Even still, 3 minutes at 100x recommended exposure is like being exposed to max recommended exposure of 100x3 = 300 minutes or 5 hours. I'll pass, but that's just me.

I get your point but I don't think the problem is that. Unless you live with the Amish you are going to be exposed to short-term high EMF fields no matter what you do. They are everywhere. If you take the metro, a car, if you walk by streets with visible or concealed power lines, cell towers, radars, military emitters, everything. Basically you would have to live in a bubble to avoid it.

Most EMF common problems are for where you sleep and work.

 

[cmdshiftdel]

Thanks for all the responses! I have a red light only (660 nm) LED panel (typically used to grow plants). I’m thinking of putting it on a timer to turn on in the morning when I’d LIKE to get up. I’m actually going to sit in front of it shortly for a few minutes, I definitely feel more energy after using it, its just a pain to set up because I’m totally using it off label.

For sure I agree, @Jackrabbit, 75 mcg MUST be too much. I thought I was being super careful and conservative considering I saw melatonin sold as high as 10 mg in the store. Not only do I wake up a mess on only 75mcg, I had strange nightmares too. I’ll try taking some Cascara Sagrada tonight to speed recovery up. I do take progesterone, days 14-28. I’m looking to see what does one do, if conception happens, with the progesterone? Do I continue to use it, except then everyday? Or is this dangerous? I DEFINITELY have to get on this research..

As for the microwave, I usually only use it 2-10 minutes per day. 2 minutes in the morning to make my latte. 8 minutes to hardboil an egg in a nifty microwavable chicken gadget. That said, after measuring with the Trifield, I’ve been hitting the on button and running. The rf spike is insane. All my life I’ve been using the microwave freely, not thinking at all it was blasting my head with so much rf. For mine, I have to be 15 feet away not to get zapped. Sigh.

In bed, after getting rid of the wifi, the alarm clock, unplugging things, turning phone off, etc - EMF is pretty low now. I got rid of bluetooth keyboard and mouse in my office and have enough distance between myself and desktop.

My concern is, now that I’ve reduced my EMF (which is good, except that it helped suppress melatonin), will my melatonin spike and depression return? Time will tell.

I will for sure stop experimenting with melatonin for now and try the suggestions mentioned.

 

[Cirion]

I get your point but I don't think the problem is that. Unless you live with the Amish you are going to be exposed to short-term high EMF fields no matter what you do. They are everywhere. If you take the metro, a car, if you walk by streets with visible or concealed power lines, cell towers, radars, military emitters, everything. Basically you would have to live in a bubble to avoid it.

Most EMF common problems are for where you sleep and work.

I do agree that there is a lot of EMF that we cannot avoid. I just am saying if we can avoid it, we should, as much as possible. This is almost like saying "Oh, I was forced to eat 30 gram of PUFA today with catered meal, might as well eat 30 more in the evening because not like I can avoid it". Yeah you got hosed with 30 gram of pufa, but adding 30 more is just making it even worse.

There is potential evidence to suggest that even a short burst can have lasting impacts for weeks on end, so just because its a short burst hardly makes it harmless. Yeah you'll get short bursts from towers you drive by, but I'm not adding more gasoline to the fire, but that's just me :P

I do agree tho that work and home are generally the two worst. I worked on my home a lot and luckily my workplace is relatively safe, at least my immediate cubicle.

 

[Makrosky]

luckily my workplace is relatively safe, at least my immediate cubicle.

I hope none of your coworkers or nearby office workers (50 ft range) uses the microwave for heating up the coffee or the lunch box

 

[Cirion]

I hope none of your coworkers or nearby office workers (50 ft range) uses the microwave for heating up the coffee or the lunch box

Haha, luckily my cubicle is quite far from the microwaves. Also I am lucky - my cubicle is basically a faraday cage (mostly metal). I tested my scanner in my cubicle and it's quite safe, even with a microwave running (Tested that too).

 

[Makrosky]

Haha, luckily my cubicle is quite far from the microwaves. Also I am lucky - my cubicle is basically a faraday cage (mostly metal). I tested my scanner in my cubicle and it's quite safe, even with a microwave running (Tested that too).

hahahaha you got me man, hands down.

 

[milk_lover]

DON'T USE YOUR PHONE IN YOUR CAR)

Why especially in the car?

 

[Cirion]

A car is almost a faraday cage except for the windows. As such, any RF signals inside will bounce around like crazy and possibly amplify (This is one reason why if you're trying to shield something, make sure you measure before and after to make sure you didn't make it worse).

Modern cars are 10x, 100x worse in EMF than old school cars for this reason. Old cars didn't have Bluetooth or wi-fi or anything. Plus more electronics in modern cars = more electrical, more magnetic fields also. I have also heard that car electricity is very dirty too. Call me crazy, but I actually think a large amount of road rage could be attributed to the high emf inside the cars. I know that high emf tends to make me agitated, easily irritable, brain fogged etc and I sometimes feel this way when driving my car. All of these symptoms are classic high serotonin, so one mitigation method is just to apply the strategies which bring serotonin down. So when recovering with high serotonin its mandatory to bring emf down as much as you can.

Same goes in a bus, or airplane, etc. Airplane and high traffic commuter buses would be among the worst places to be for RF. When I fly I try to sit all the way in the back. Sitting in the middle, especially near the engines, would be the highest EMF spot.