Curious: What was Peat wrong about, in your view?

[Rinse & rePeat]

He omitted to say "and sugar" since it was needless to say and just silly.

of course, coffee without sugar is possible ... but it has to be after meal then , no-brainer

That is what I think too.

 

[Apple]

He emphasised fruit sugars over refined sugars so I don’t think it’s impossible that he did not add it to his coffee. In that interview he says he starts his day with orange juice, then, he goes on to talk about coffee with cream. No mention of refined sugar. Yes, he did say sugar is good for you but he also said if you have the choice of ripe fruits those are preferable.

That is what I think too.

RP: "I buy 20 pounds bags of sugar and people in supermarket stare at me". (1:19:40)
"pasteurized honey is fine"

Dr. Ray Peat - A Plethora of Wide Ranging Questions for The Good Doctor - October 15, 2019 | One Radio Network

Under active Thyroid comes up often in our discussions with Dr. Peat, as the root cause of lots of things that go bump in the night. “Hello Patrick from Melbourne Australia, Just a quick message to…

oneradionetwork.com

 

[David PS]

@Rinse & rePeat @Apple - I am not as comfortable as you are putting words into Dr. Peat's sentences.

My answer to the question of "does he or dosen't he" is sometimes he doesn't.

 

[Peatress]

RP: "I buy 20 pounds bags of sugar and people in supermarket stare at me". (1:19:40)
"pasteurized honey is fine"

Dr. Ray Peat - A Plethora of Wide Ranging Questions for The Good Doctor - October 15, 2019 | One Radio Network

Under active Thyroid comes up often in our discussions with Dr. Peat, as the root cause of lots of things that go bump in the night. “Hello Patrick from Melbourne Australia, Just a quick message to…

oneradionetwork.com

Shame we can't ask him if he used the sugar even when ripened fruit was available.

Also, the sugar could be for making ice cream.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

@Rinse & rePeat @Apple - I am not as comfortable as you are putting words into Dr. Peat's sentences.

My answer to the question of "does he or dosen't he" is sometimes he doesn't.

I am only comfortable with his exact words, and people can assume what they want from them. We can’t just go around playing a bad game of “ telephone”, and he isn’t around anymore to ask, so we just do what we can with what he left.

 

[moa]

@Rinse & rePeat some of the things he didn't told because he didn't knew, or there is no research about yet.

one of the things i don't quite understand well is the nitric oxide.

the nos3 enzyme acts like a switch in my opinion. cause when it's coupled by bh4 it's on, and when you get a bit of oxydation it will destroy bh4 and that will create a inverse reaction, further turning off bh4, like a switch, you either produce NO and that lowers super oxide, or you get a bit too much SO and all bh4 is shut down.

after that, nos2 will produce nitric oxide, but nos2 can also be activated as to produce much more nitric oxide without any limit.

not like nos3 that depends on how much arginine is there, highly regulated by other enzymes, nos2 can produce 100 times more nitric oxide than nos3 and it's not regulated by calcium, by bh4, by zinc, by cystein derivatives etc like nos3.

so, nos3 its a Switch, on/off. when the cell is in good condition it produces small quantities of NO not more than what's needed according to multiple regulatory feedbacks, and it lowers oxydative stress.

when is turned off, in a second (once the critical mass of SO is reached), you get no NO and probably shortly after you get inflammation and the nos2 start to produce 100 times more nitric oxide than the other one.

so, bh4 here is the "key" that signals the cell to be in one of the two states : either normal with low NO production or inflamed in panic mode with lots of oxydative stress.

the only way to get out of the oxydative stress is for the cell to revert it by producing lots of energy for antioxidant enzymes, thus reducing oxydation and then bh4 can be replenished and nod3 coupled again.

I've seen some comments that bh4 is "producing" nitric oxide, and that's not how i see it when i look at his it works, in reality. the bh4 is just a key to turn on the "economic mode" that does create NO but in low amounts.

i guess the level of folate and folic cycle regulates how high that threshold is when the switch is turned off.

while having more arginine available will produce a bit more nitric oxide, it will also ensure that there switch is not turned off and the cell does not go in panic mode.

I'm not an expert, but that's my first impression after spending some time to read on the subject.

maybe I'm missing something ?

As i understand, the idea is that nitrc oxide is bad because it inhibits complex IV in mitochondria ETC. This would be true in a system designed to work by two opposing factors : one that increase NO and the other that keeps it low, not a system designed like a switch on/off.

do we know how much complex IV is inhibited by nitric oxide at levels produced by bh4 ? is it really inhibited at that level or only by very high amounts produced by nos2?

if so, then increasing bh4 or even arginine availability is actually good, not bad.

also, the science talks about the arginine paradox. when they use such words like "paradox", it means they don't have any clue what's going on....

So not only dr Peat hasn't give details, but even mainstream science is clueless of what's going on with nitric oxide production as my first impression when studying this subject.

they say first impression is always the best.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

@Rinse & rePeat some of the things he didn't told because he didn't knew, or there is no research about yet.

I agree with you @moa that Ray Peat spoke on things he knew about, but he didn’t research every food or everything. I am sure he was happy to know that he had so much more to discover.

 

[David PS]

one of the things i don't quite understand well is the nitric oxide.

I do not understand it either. Dr. Peat's Newsletter, Nitric oxide, aging, andadaptation--the Procrustean adaptogen clairified some things for me. He had a great ability to integrate information that the experts either overlook or discard.

With regard to the arginine paradox, I only have a casual interest in it and so I just ignore it. Ingesting too much arginine causes health issues and so I limit my focus to eating foods with a lysine to arginine ratio. see Table-of-L-lysine-to-L-arginine-Ratio-in-Common-Foods

There is also an old thread on the forum related to cancer that supports this diet.

Arginine Depletion May Be A Viable Approach For Cancer

Ray is not a big fan of certain amino acids like arginine due to its role as a nitric oxide (NO) precursor. I posted a study several weeks ago showing that supplemental arginine greatly boosted tumor growth while supplemental glycine halted it. This latest study seems to take the arginine...

raypeatforum.com

If your interested in the arginine paradox, you might find this L-Arginine, Nitric Oxide, and Endothelial Dysfunction Underlying Atherosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease (ASCVD) to be interesting.

 

[moa]

@David PS interesting the findings in that older thread, that Canada increase nitric oxide.



it seems there are studies saying emodin increase eNOS but decrease iNOD, the net result is a small increase in nitric oxide but a decrease in nitric oxide if iNOS is used, so it both increases nitric oxide when low, and reduce nitric oxide when it's produced by iNOS.



I'll look at the article. I've used lysine supplements because anti serotonin, for gut, but i think glycine works better for me. if citrulline/arginine is so risky, folate also, then the only way to restore bh4 levels in a healthy way is with anti oxidants like taurine, ala, vit c, flovonoids, niacinamide, emodin and copper. and then, long term, thiamine and especially magnesium, that i find extremely difficult to "put inside the cells" and i think it may be the most important of all, in the long term, for this kind of problems.

I'm going to pursue with this approach, and if i manage this, to raise my bh4 levels, then automatically it will raise dopamine (that's the role of bh4), this will lower prolactin, and finally, it will fix thyroid in the long term and hopefully weight loss and lower cholesterol markers as the end goal. there's no way i can lower prolactin and cholesterol without raising bh4 first with my genetic mutations :

I am homozyguos for gene SLC18A1 for protein CGAT (known as VMAT1), it says 4 times greater risk of schizophrenia. I always felt good on glycine, but i only take about 3g per day. Maybe i should try something more like 5g 5times per day.

It seems I also have the worrior gene, meaning reduced activity of monoamine oxidase A. (MAO-A). This means that the high levels of cythostolic monoamines are not cleared, resulting in even more ROS and downregulation of BH4, resulting in less monoamines in the end (including dopamine and the good ones).

Also i should add, i have deficiency in folate genes, both MTHFR (b2 dependent) and MTRR (B12 dependent) further depleting my BH4 (NADPH and folate dependent).

Also i have the CBS gene gene upregulated, further increasing cysteine, and CBS upregulation is known to be a cause of depletion of BH4 (through oxidative stess) and increased molybdenum needs to clear sulfates (that's easy to fix with supplements).

Also a mutation on gene SLC25A12, supposed to impair : 'oxidative phosphorylation to produce ATP by the transport of NADH-reducing equivalents into the mitochondrial matrix' (if im not wrong). What does this mean ? Less NADPH in the end, so less BH4 again ???

So i have 6 genes with mutations that are known, each one of them, to deplete BH4 levels..... and i had, long term, all the symptoms that go with both brain and gut and some other minor problems that could be linked to low BH4...

Acute L-Arginine supplementation does not increase nitric oxide production in healthy subjects

Interesting post... another arginine paradox.

i think arginine is good for healthy cells and bad for stressed cells, but since it's impossible to discriminate between the two with supplements, it's probably better to limit intake. why heathy individuals take it for muscle growth, without many side effects (in that population), as long as they stay healthy.

I agree with you @moa that Ray Peat spoke on things he knew about, but he didn’t research every food or everything. I am sure he was happy to know that he had so much more to discover.

He was very passionate with his research way past his "retirement" age. I think his approach based on a combination of empirical experimentation and observation and the do not harm principle of Hypocrite, using only substances that known to be safe and since they are safe, why but try and experiment instead of the mainstream ideology of using complex trials to build protocols based on statistical harm/benefice ratio and apply them blindly to everyone without taking in consideration individual response and others preventive and holistic considerations.

the most scary thing in mainstream is when there is a wrong diagnosis. not that it's not true, but sometimes having diagnosed something just hides the real cause, like when you receive a cortisol cream for eczema but the problem is a b vitamin or zinc deficiency... or you receive fiber for IBS when in reality it's mast cell activation syndrome, or when you receive SSRI when in reality you suffer from mold exposure at home or lead poisoning or whatever.

it happens all the time but once you have a diagnosis, they stop searching other things.

with an empirical approach, you don't get trapped in a rigid diagnosis, you keep searching, and using only non harming, holistic supplements, you ensure no harm is done or side effects in case of wrong evaluation ("diagnosis").

but then, some situations require prescription medication and, for that more serious health problems, is actually impossible to do without using the system and the only solution is getting the prescription from a licenced physician following approved protocols.

I'm happy to be outside of the biology or medical profession, cause, with everything i know now about how they falsified the research, i don't think i would be able to do my job at all with their protocols.

That's where Ray Peat was even more clever, choosing research, instead of physician, gives a bit more freedom.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

@David PS interesting the findings in that older thread, that Canada increase nitric oxide.



it seems there are studies saying emodin increase eNOS but decrease iNOD, the net result is a small increase in nitric oxide but a decrease in nitric oxide if iNOS is used, so it both increases nitric oxide when low, and reduce nitric oxide when it's produced by iNOS.



I'll look at the article. I've used lysine supplements because anti serotonin, for gut, but i think glycine works better for me. if citrulline/arginine is so risky, folate also, then the only way to restore bh4 levels in a healthy way is with anti oxidants like taurine, ala, vit c, flovonoids, niacinamide, emodin and copper. and then, long term, thiamine and especially magnesium, that i find extremely difficult to "put inside the cells" and i think it may be the most important of all, in the long term, for this kind of problems.

I'm going to pursue with this approach, and if i manage this, to raise my bh4 levels, then automatically it will raise dopamine (that's the role of bh4), this will lower prolactin, and finally, it will fix thyroid in the long term and hopefully weight loss and lower cholesterol markers as the end goal. there's no way i can lower prolactin and cholesterol without raising bh4 first with my genetic mutations :





Interesting post... another arginine paradox.

i think arginine is good for healthy cells and bad for stressed cells, but since it's impossible to discriminate between the two with supplements, it's probably better to limit intake. why heathy individuals take it for muscle growth, without many side effects (in that population), as long as they stay healthy.



He was very passionate with his research way past his "retirement" age. I think his approach based on a combination of empirical experimentation and observation and the do not harm principle of Hypocrite, using only substances that known to be safe and since they are safe, why but try and experiment instead of the mainstream ideology of using complex trials to build protocols based on statistical harm/benefice ratio and apply them blindly to everyone without taking in consideration individual response and others preventive and holistic considerations.

the most scary thing in mainstream is when there is a wrong diagnosis. not that it's not true, but sometimes having diagnosed something just hides the real cause, like when you receive a cortisol cream for eczema but the problem is a b vitamin or zinc deficiency... or you receive fiber for IBS when in reality it's mast cell activation syndrome, or when you receive SSRI when in reality you suffer from mold exposure at home or lead poisoning or whatever.

it happens all the time but once you have a diagnosis, they stop searching other things.

with an empirical approach, you don't get trapped in a rigid diagnosis, you keep searching, and using only non harming, holistic supplements, you ensure no harm is done or side effects in case of wrong evaluation ("diagnosis").

but then, some situations require prescription medication and, for that more serious health problems, is actually impossible to do without using the system and the only solution is getting the prescription from a licenced physician following approved protocols.

I'm happy to be outside of the biology or medical profession, cause, with everything i know now about how they falsified the research, i don't think i would be able to do my job at all with their protocols.

That's where Ray Peat was even more clever, choosing research, instead of physician, gives a bit more freedom.

They don’t call a doctor’s profession a “practice” for nothing. Like I have said many times before, doctors are a lifesaver for emergency situations, but they don’t sell a healthy diet. That is a personal choice people need to discover for themselves. Diet is not a one size fits all.,

 

[moa]

That is a personal choice people need to discover for themselves.

it should be part of education, from a young age, to have some basic knowledge about practical things in life. i was not aware about this choice. only after i distroyed my health with poor diet and preventable mold and lead poisoning, i started to search for solutions.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

it should be part of education, from a young age, to have some basic knowledge about practical things in life. i was not aware about this choice. only after i distroyed my health with poor diet and preventable mold and lead poisoning, i started to search for solutions.

They do teach health, but the governments get to choose what that is, and therein lies the problem. Look at the old American pyramid versus Ray Peat’s. I think health is much like religion, people have to care enough to decide for themselves what to believe or they just follow in their parents footsteps, without giving anything a further thought, and assume their issues are inherited. Just as bad is people listening to young people who don’t find out if they are right until they get old, bald, fat and sick, oops. The elderly listening to the young for health advice is just plain ridiculous. Good for you that you care to take your health matters into your own hands.

 

[moa]

i like American culture, cause i think it's like that there, more than here in Europe where very few families have this kind of thinking.

 

[moa]

He he, that Ray Peat pyramid, the liver is only for those who are very healthy and can take so much vitamin A because of high t3.

that mainstream pyramid, the "oils" on top are only for those who are very sick and can't take so much carbs any longer because of insulin resistance.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

.

He he, that Ray Peat pyramid, the liver is only for those who are very healthy and can take so much vitamin A because of high t3.

that mainstream pyramid, the "oils" on top are only for those who are very sick and can't take so much carbs any longer because of insulin resistance.

From what I generally see, the problem isn’t usually Ray Peat’s suggestion of liver, it is people partaking in too much of it, 3-ounces a week is all that he suggested, and that is as long as you take his advice too on having shrimp once a week to balance the copper. People usually do one or the other or overdo it.

 

[moa]

probably. but traditionally people living far from the sea didn't had any shrimp. and still don't, in some countries. In Romania, very small sea, there's only river fish to buy usually in the mountain area. beef is not consumed a lot (mostly pork, chicken, lamb).

 

[Apple]

Hi @youngsinatra, I was able to come off thyroid after removing a food I’m allergenic to from my diet.

What food was that ?

 

[Jennifer]

What food was that ?

Bottled juice. Most juice companies I contacted use clarifying agents in the processing of their juice that aren’t required to be listed on the label. Once I switched to unfiltered juice, the allergic reactions I experienced, like the one below, went away:



I posted a link to some of the clarifying agents used here:

Organic orange juices tasting much worse and different. Super fruit juice brand

So i had cut out Oj for the most part since 2021 not intentionally but I just couldnt handle the liquid amount. I do know both Costco and whole foods organic orange juices would say “product of usa/mexico” on them. They both had a nice sweet taste and tasted noticeably better than the non...

raypeatforum.com

 

[Apple]

Bottled juice. Most juice companies I contacted use clarifying agents in the processing of their juice that aren’t required to be listed on the label. Once I switched to unfiltered juice, the allergic reactions I experienced, like the one below, went away:

View attachment 59706

I posted a link to some of the clarifying agents used here:

Organic orange juices tasting much worse and different. Super fruit juice brand

So i had cut out Oj for the most part since 2021 not intentionally but I just couldnt handle the liquid amount. I do know both Costco and whole foods organic orange juices would say “product of usa/mexico” on them. They both had a nice sweet taste and tasted noticeably better than the non...

raypeatforum.com

wow...unbelievable
Do you still consume raw foods , like meat, milk ... ?

 

[Jennifer]

@Apple, I still consume raw foods, yes. The majority of my diet is raw—milk, ice cream, fruit/juice and honey—but I experienced no added benefit from consuming meat raw and I prefer it cooked so I cook it. :)