Brad Marshall's Presentation on PUFA, Obesity, Torpor and more.

[David PS]

I tend to agree with you that the PUFA oils are the big problem and whole foods seem to be less so. My concern with pork is what they were fed. If milk and table scraps - yes I imagine they would contain very low PUFA. However, fed corn and soy to fatten them up quickly as in industrial “farms”, well….I think this could be a bigger problem even though pork is a whole food.

I agree. From Ray Peats article - Unsaturated Vegetable Oils: Toxic

• SUMMARY

• Unsaturated fats cause aging, clotting, inflammation, cancer, and weight gain.
  Avoid foods which contain the polyunsaturated oils, such as corn, soy, safflower, flax, cottonseed, canola, peanut, and sesame oil.
  Mayonnaise, pastries, even candies may contain these oils; check the labels for ingredients.
  Pork is now fed corn and soy beans, so lard is usually as toxic as those oils; use only lean pork.
  Fish oils are usually highly unsaturated; "dry" types of fish, and shellfish, used once or twice a week, are good. Avoid cod liver oil.
  Use vitamin E.
  Use coconut oil, butter, and olive oil.
  Unsaturated fats intensify estrogen's harmful effects.

 

[canadianboymike]

I like Brad Marshall and his message. But why does he yo yo with his weight and diet if it works really well. Ray for example walks the walk and look really lean and his mental acuity is great even at older ages. If someone is using the template of “anti obesity” and can’t manage their own weight it’s hard to believe in full heartedly.

I’ve also tried eating in that way combining starches and high fat and it did what I expected and did NOT help me lean out lol

 

[Dean]

I like Brad Marshall and his message. But why does he yo yo with his weight and diet if it works really well. Ray for example walks the walk and look really lean and his mental acuity is great even at older ages. If someone is using the template of “anti obesity” and can’t manage their own weight it’s hard to believe in full heartedly.

I’ve also tried eating in that way combining starches and high fat and it did what I expected and did NOT help me lean out lol

Knowing what you should (or shouldn't) do and doing (or not doing) it are different things. Especially when it comes to food.

As I mentioned in previous post, I don't think it's as simple as eating a bunch of saturated fat and starch. The extra (additional) stearic acid may be necessary for many (most). Cocoa butter maybe instead of butter but not as versatile in terms of palatability. Not as affordable or convenient either.

Cutting down (protein) and maybe out (sugar carbs?) on other foods may be necessary as well, which makes it another "diet" that's hard to sustain for various reasons.

The succinic acid he got from all his wine probably is a factor too. Of course, he was intermittent fasting as well; which we know works for weight loss regardless of what you eat when you do eat.

 

[LLight]

Learned recently that linoleic acid is particularly low in deuterium and that it couldn't really be something random.
Linoleic acid doesn't produce enough ROS, is that it? Deuterium depletion seems to tend to increase ROS (in the start at least, before the antioxidant system starts to kick in).
Animals being in torpor doesn't drink so their cells might produce low deuterium metabolic water, without any dilution.

 

[canadianboymike]

Knowing what you should (or shouldn't) do and doing (or not doing) it are different things. Especially when it comes to food.

As I mentioned in previous post, I don't think it's as simple as eating a bunch of saturated fat and starch. The extra (additional) stearic acid may be necessary for many (most). Cocoa butter maybe instead of butter but not as versatile in terms of palatability. Not as affordable or convenient either.

Cutting down (protein) and maybe out (sugar carbs?) on other foods may be necessary as well, which makes it another "diet" that's hard to sustain for various reasons.

The succinic acid he got from all his wine probably is a factor too. Of course, he was intermittent fasting as well; which we know works for weight loss regardless of what you eat when you do eat.

Learned recently that linoleic acid is particularly low in deuterium and that it couldn't really be something random.
Linoleic acid doesn't produce enough ROS, is that it? Deuterium depletion seems to tend to increase ROS (in the start at least, before the antioxidant system starts to kick in).
Animals being in torpor doesn't drink so their cells might produce low deuterium metabolic water, without any dilution.

Knowing what you should (or shouldn't) do and doing (or not doing) it are different things. Especially when it comes to food.

As I mentioned in previous post, I don't think it's as simple as eating a bunch of saturated fat and starch. The extra (additional) stearic acid may be necessary for many (most). Cocoa butter maybe instead of butter but not as versatile in terms of palatability. Not as affordable or convenient either.

Cutting down (protein) and maybe out (sugar carbs?) on other foods may be necessary as well, which makes it another "diet" that's hard to sustain for various reasons.

The succinic acid he got from all his wine probably is a factor too. Of course, he was intermittent fasting as well; which we know works for weight loss regardless of what you eat when you do eat.

Good point about reducing sugar and/or protein. It’s obviously not as simple as high starch and saturated fat. Also he uses the french as an example which means you have to take their lifestyle into account as well which means exercise, eating patterns, sleeping patterns etc

I personally added a ton of cocoa butter for pretty much the highest Stearic acid content in real food…even in combinations that seemed odd.

Intermittent fasting doesn’t seem like a good approach at all. I’ve done it in spades and it always leaves the body depleted in the end. Which is obvious as you’re not giving it any nutrition. But even still as he uses these methods and the “best” Stearic acid supplements he still yo yos on his diet. Not saying I got it all figured out but I’m also not a public figure endorsing a diet.

 

[Dean]

With intermittent fasting, I was speaking only of it as an effective weight loss tool. It seems to work for most people (again, in terms of sheer weight loss), at least initially. Whether it works in terms of long term health or even wellbeing while doing it is another matter.

Should also point out that Marshall is a believer in low protein. He doesn't think humans need more than 10% of calories from protein, if I recall correctly.

Your use of cocoa butter wore well? You didn't or don't get tired of it?

 

[canadianboymike]

With intermittent fasting, I was speaking only of it as an effective weight loss tool. It seems to work for most people (again, in terms of sheer weight loss), at least initially. Whether it works in terms of long term health or even wellbeing while doing it is another matter.

Should also point out that Marshall is a believer in low protein. He doesn't think humans need more than 10% of calories from protein, if I recall correctly.

Your use of cocoa butter wore well? You didn't or don't get tired of it?

I am not currently using it as I’m doing an extremely low fat diet. But I enjoyed it and would add it in again. It’s great when making chocolate ice cream!

I agree with the protein sentiment. Too much protein causes lower energy and replaced foods that can give you energy such as carbs or fats which just tastes great.

But you’re right for quick weight loss fasting works. So does high protein. It just feels like ***t

 

[Dean]

I am not currently using it as I’m doing an extremely low fat diet. But I enjoyed it and would add it in again. It’s great when making chocolate ice cream!

I agree with the protein sentiment. Too much protein causes lower energy and replaced foods that can give you energy such as carbs or fats which just tastes great.

But you’re right for quick weight loss fasting works. So does high protein. It just feels like ***t

Interesting you switched to "extremely low fat".

I've been thinking of doing something like that short term before switching to TCD longer term. With stored PUFA, it seems you'll need to supplement (a lot of) extra stearic acid for it to work for weight loss. That seems to line up with Marshall's more recent experiences and recommendations which I am catching up on at the moment.

Is that why you went to "extremely low fat"? Were you having trouble losing weight or even gaining on TCD, despite the cocoa butter use?

TCD seems like it would be more sustainable not having to use all that extra stearic acid. As a maintenance diet, lots of good ole butter, starch and a little meat, fruit, veggies seems like it wouldn't be bad. It might not be the way to lose the weight initially though.

He does have other supplement hacks though that are supposed to help with weight loss..sterculia oil, berberine, succinic acid.

 

[LadyRae]

....And, how about that? Apparently, as I was watching the earlier video of Brad's, this interview with Haidut and Brad Marshall (which I haven't watched yet) was apparently being uploaded to Youtube. Might deserve a thread of it's own, but I'm posting it here for now.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjI0zQL7gaU

This one was awesome, I listened this morning while sitting under red light with my new kitten. I need to re-listen to the beginning, the part about redox...

 

[LadyRae]

Bears gorge on salmon (pufa) in the fall and gorge on berries (sugar) in the spring.

Here in Washington state, usa, we have black bears and grizzly bears. The berries don't ripen until August. I don't know of any berries that are ripe in the spring

 

[LadyRae]

My countrys database and cronometer both show pork having pretty low amounts of PUFA. About 1.5-2g of pufa in 100 grams of fatty pork. There is also lean pork which has a neglible amount of pufa, but high B1 etc

I love to throw a lean pork loin into the slow cooker with some extra gelatinous bone broth on low for about 6 hours. Then, "pull" it with 2 forks, it's so good!

 

[canadianboymike]

Interesting you switched to "extremely low fat".

I've been thinking of doing something like that short term before switching to TCD longer term. With stored PUFA, it seems you'll need to supplement (a lot of) extra stearic acid for it to work for weight loss. That seems to line up with Marshall's more recent experiences and recommendations which I am catching up on at the moment.

Is that why you went to "extremely low fat"? Were you having trouble losing weight or even gaining on TCD, despite the cocoa butter use?

TCD seems like it would be more sustainable not having to use all that extra stearic acid. As a maintenance diet, lots of good ole butter, starch and a little meat, fruit, veggies seems like it wouldn't be bad. It might not be the way to lose the weight initially though.

He does have other supplement hacks though that are supposed to help with weight loss..sterculia oil, berberine, succinic acid.

I definitely didn’t lose weight on the diet and gained some noticeable fluff.

The low fat approach has changed my body composition without weight loss really which was surprising when I finally weighed myself. My stomach flattened out and I exercise 3-4 days a week and the gains in muscle size were immense. Almost too much. Now I just want to lean out and not gain much muscle.

I also have a massive appetite and eating no fat allows me to eat way more calories upwards of 5000 most days and not gain any fat. Provably due to the high sugar and metabolic rate.

As a long term thing I would rather have some fatty meat and eggs and even cocoa butter in ice cream. So I will likely switch to that for preference or at least 2-4 days a week.

 

[Dean]

Are you eating a lot of protein, like fat-free dairy?

I was just reading his blog post about the stearic acid milk shake, following a couple days of very low fat to prime the slow-moving stearic acid to hang out in the mitochondria and force the body to burn your stored fat (or something like that).

Maybe I'll try a few no fat, very low protein days (basically fruit and/ or starch only) before TCD to see if that enables weight loss.

 

[canadianboymike]

Are you eating a lot of protein, like fat-free dairy?

I was just reading his blog post about the stearic acid milk shake, following a couple days of very low fat to prime the slow-moving stearic acid to hang out in the mitochondria and force the body to burn your stored fat (or something like that).

Maybe I'll try a few no fat, very low protein days (basically fruit and/ or starch only) before TCD to see if that enables weight loss.

I am not eating high protein at all. About 80-120g most days. I weight 215lbs so not a ton for my size.

Have about 1000-1500ml skim milk though.
Not sure about the effect of the Stearic acid but I’ve you want to lose fat you can live in Low Fat land for a while to do so. It’s hard to make fat out of protein and carbs and most people will lose fat avoiding it. I’ve done this a couple times with the same effect. Except first time I lost more weight keeping protein super low compared to this time.

 

[Dean]

I am not eating high protein at all. About 80-120g most days. I weight 215lbs so not a ton for my size.

Have about 1000-1500ml skim milk though.
Not sure about the effect of the Stearic acid but I’ve you want to lose fat you can live in Low Fat land for a while to do so. It’s hard to make fat out of protein and carbs and most people will lose fat avoiding it. I’ve done this a couple times with the same effect. Except first time I lost more weight keeping protein super low compared to this time.

My problem with low fat is I am "hangry" all the time. I hate to constantly be having to eat or think about eating.

Low, even no, carb has always been my go-to for weight loss; but, my body doesn't seem to be able to handle the protein (meat) as well as I age. My energy (physical and mental) is always low on that as well no matter the protein to fat ratio.

So, looking for an alternative...

 

[Dr. B]

I'm sure many here know the name Brad Marshall by now, but if you don't, he's the inventor of the Croissant Diet, runs the blog Fire In A Bottle, and also is creating low PUFA pork. In the following 50-ish minute presentation, he discusses why he thinks PUFA intake is the more likely culprit behind the Obesity epidemic rather than just "calories" or "food reward." He also shows how how PUFA can induce torpor and weight gain in many types of animals (and how this beneficial for any animal that hibernates), and also discusses how this relates to things like Stearic Acid, the SCD1 enzyme, and NAD+/NADH ratio. He really does a nice job of tying many of the popular concepts discussed on this forum together.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySB2me2YDH4


@haidut

hey mate could you review the thread I posted in the Anti peat section regarding this. I think PUFA definitely promote hibernation in fact, a month or so back I tried paneras chicken sandwich and got the hibernation effect from it. I ate vitamin E later on. once every few months or so I might try a PUFA item alongside some vitamin E. my daily diet is pretty low PUFA. but the thing im trying to figure out is why adding in 1g fish oil and 500mg black seed oil on an all fruit/all grass fed milk diet improves things. improves inflammation, skin health, hair health etc. the things Ray mentioned like b6/zinc healing skin conditions caused by EFA deficiency, the thing is b6 increases both serotonin and arachidonic acid production and zinc might boost it too and zinc has an anti metabolic effect too. then Rays mentioned vitamin A or cabbage if you have skin breakouts on a fast metabolism. every intervention seems to be an anti metabolic intervention and the safest of any of those IMO is just adding more liver since the vitamin A should actually boost sex steroids and maximize the power of the fast metabolism whereas cabbage, b6, zinc, EFA are just gonna do other nonsense.

is it truly better to be EFA free vs doing like 65g fat from whole milk, which would contain 40g SFA, 22g MUFA and 2g PUFA max. in one of Rays articles he said its the ratio of SFA to PUFA that matters most, not the overall intake of either. and there might be other things that account for or negate PUFA for example olive oil is mostly MUFA, with small amounts SFA and PUFA in a 1:1 ratio. why does jack kruse think pufa or omega 3 is important

 

[Dr. B]

I definitely didn’t lose weight on the diet and gained some noticeable fluff.

The low fat approach has changed my body composition without weight loss really which was surprising when I finally weighed myself. My stomach flattened out and I exercise 3-4 days a week and the gains in muscle size were immense. Almost too much. Now I just want to lean out and not gain much muscle.

I also have a massive appetite and eating no fat allows me to eat way more calories upwards of 5000 most days and not gain any fat. Provably due to the high sugar and metabolic rate.

As a long term thing I would rather have some fatty meat and eggs and even cocoa butter in ice cream. So I will likely switch to that for preference or at least 2-4 days a week.

that sounds crazy, what was your diet like doing this?
so you think it would be better to do an all whey protein and fruit juice diet, vs having like 65g fat from whole milk daily plus whey protein and fruit juice? you dont think saturated fat has benefits?
for muscle building purposes wouldnt 150g or 200g protein be better than 80g or 120g?

 

[canadianboymike]

My problem with low fat is I am "hangry" all the time. I hate to constantly be having to eat or think about eating.

Low, even no, carb has always been my go-to for weight loss; but, my body doesn't seem to be able to handle the protein (meat) as well as I age. My energy (physical and mental) is always low on that as well no matter the protein to fat ratio.

So, looking for an alternative...

Don’t know how you can be hangry If you eat till you’re full all day whenever you feel like. It’s not sustainable if you restrict yourself. It’s all about picking the right foods and letting your hunger guide you. Then you can toggle the amount of carbs and fats to suite your goals and preference. Everyone is different though with what works

 

[LadyRae]

Don’t know how you can be hangry If you eat till you’re full all day whenever you feel like. It’s not sustainable if you restrict yourself. It’s all about picking the right foods and letting your hunger guide you. Then you can toggle the amount of carbs and fats to suite your goals and preference. Everyone is different though with what works

When I'm eating bowls of melon and then a fist size portion of a lean meat, there is no way I'm going to be feeling hangry... I believe that hunger is driven by micronutrient deficiency and inadequate protein. At least this proves true for me.

 

[canadianboymike]

When I'm eating bowls of melon and then a fist size portion of a lean meat, there is no way I'm going to be feeling hangry... I believe that hunger is driven by micronutrient deficiency and inadequate protein. At least this proves true for me.

Good point on the micronutrients. I believe sugar is a great component of that as well. Melons digest super quick which tells our body we have emery coming in which may also stop us eating uncontrollably. Maple syrup on spaghetti anyone?? ?