Balding "Gene"

[Dhair]

How can we be convinced that there is isn't a balding gene that is turned on at some point in a man's life as a result of accumulated stress? There seem to be other genes that have been identified that work in this way.
Ive read Danny Roddy's work as well as Ray Peat's. I'm simply asking if anyone here has specifically considered this and then rejected it.

 

[Parsifal]

How can we be convinced that there is isn't a balding gene that is turned on at some point in a man's life as a result of accumulated stress? There seem to be other genes that have been identified that work in this way.
Ive read Danny Roddy's work as well as Ray Peat's. I'm simply asking if anyone here has specifically considered this and then rejected it.

My father is an interesting case. He has always drinked a lot of alcohol, eaten a lot of PUFA, being one of the most stressed individual I know, he had chimio and lost his hair one time but they grew back and really strong, he has a lot of signs of high serotonin/cortisol/adrenaline/estrogens/prolactin (man boobs, fat) and low androgens. He is now 63 and almost doesn't have a single white hair and his head is full of hair and really strong. His mother is 88 years old and have really strong hair (her hair are very dark for her age) as well despite being Alzheimer and eating a lot of PUFA, having trauma and stress a lot in her life.
So I think Danny and Ray are not necessarily wrong but there are a lot of others factors in my opinion...

 

[johnwester130]

My father is an interesting case. He has always drinked a lot of alcohol, eaten a lot of PUFA, being one of the most stressed individual I know, he had chimio and lost his hair one time but they grew back and really strong, he has a lot of signs of high serotonin/cortisol/adrenaline/estrogens/prolactin (man boobs, fat) and low androgens. He is now 63 and almost doesn't have a single white hair and his head is full of hair and really strong. His mother is 88 years old and have really strong hair (her hair are very dark for her age) as well despite being Alzheimer and eating a lot of PUFA, having trauma and stress a lot in her life.
So I think Danny and Ray are not necessarily wrong but there are a lot of others factors in my opinion...

because of this

2 different things that are confused as the same

 

[Dhair]

because of this

2 different things that are confused as the same

I'm not really understanding that infographic.
If it's just saying that hair shedding and MPB are different then I can concede that, but someone with shedding who isn't actually LOSING their hair wouldn't know the difference.

 

[johnwester130]

I'm not really understanding that infographic.
If it's just saying that hair shedding and MPB are different then I can concede that, but someone with shedding who isn't actually LOSING their hair wouldn't know the difference.

explain

pattern baldness would be gradual over 10 years

shedding would be instant

 

[Dhair]

explain

pattern baldness would be gradual over 10 years

shedding would be instant

But who is to say that "natural" MPB can't happen over a 3 or 4 year period instead of a 10 year period?

 

[johnwester130]

But who is to say that "natural" MPB can't happen over a 3 or 4 year period instead of a 10 year period?

well maybe a few years,

 

[whodathunkit]

I think genes play a part. But only a part. Whether or not a gene mutation (aka single nucleotide protein, or "snp") for balding gets "turned on" depends in large measure on lifestyle and environmental stress. I think there is also more than one snp for baldness, and having multiple snps for baldness turned on at the same time may also be a factor.

I have a bunch of snps for hair loss (I have 17 snps relating to hair and 14 of them are "bad") and in fact have experienced fairly severe hairloss, esp. for a woman. I used to have really dense hair with thick hair shafts, and now the density is remarkably thinned, and my hair shafts are a lot finer. I've always had a crappy lifestyle and when my lifestyle is really bad is when I really shed. Big stress event a long time ago triggered the worst of it. I've had some periods of regrowth when eating healthy and getting my sh*t together...but they've never lasted. Hopefully this time I can make it stick.

Point being, lifestyle is probably the overriding factor in whether or not we lose our hair, or at least at what age it gets really thin. Keep it healthy, keep it clean, early to bed and early to rise, and you've got a good chance of beating any snps for hairloss you might have.

explain

pattern baldness would be gradual over 10 years

shedding would be instant

Shedding is your hair coming out. Big sheds can be triggered by stress and stress alone. You can recover full density after a big shed due to a stress event.

But if over time you are shedding faster than your body can replace the lost hair with hair of equivalent health, then you wind up balding.

What usually happens is that hair falls, and then because of poor follicle health (due to lifestyle, chronic stress, snps, etc.) it is replaced with hair of poorer quality. The growth cycle is also shortened, so if, for example, you lose a 2ft fully healthy shaft of hair that it took you 1.5 years to grow, it might be replaced with a hair of less length and less thick in the shaft, that only grows for a year before falling out. You keep losing that hair for a few years with the decreasing growth/shed cycle, and it gets to where it can't grow more than a thin, fine nub. Vellus hair. When that happens to enough hairs on your head, you're bald.

How long it takes for this to happen (3 years v. 10 years, for instance) depends upon your lifestyle, follicle health (directly related to lifestyle) and probably snps. People with no snps for balding not being affected at all, no matter what the lifestyle. Lucky barstids.

 

[Dhair]

I think genes play a part. But only a part. Whether or not a gene mutation (aka single nucleotide protein, or "snp") for balding gets "turned on" depends in large measure on lifestyle and environmental stress. I think there is also more than one snp for baldness, and having multiple snps for baldness turned on at the same time may also be a factor.

I have a bunch of snps for hair loss (I have 17 snps relating to hair and 14 of them are "bad") and in fact have experienced fairly severe hairloss, esp. for a woman. I used to have really dense hair with thick hair shafts, and now the density is remarkably thinned, and my hair shafts are a lot finer. I've always had a crappy lifestyle and when my lifestyle is really bad is when I really shed. Big stress event a long time ago triggered the worst of it. I've had some periods of regrowth when eating healthy and getting my sh*t together...but they've never lasted. Hopefully this time I can make it stick.

Point being, lifestyle is probably the overriding factor in whether or not we lose our hair, or at least at what age it gets really thin. Keep it healthy, keep it clean, early to bed and early to rise, and you've got a good chance of beating any snps for hairloss you might have.


Shedding is your hair coming out. Big sheds can be triggered by stress and stress alone. You can recover full density after a big shed due to a stress event.

But if over time you are shedding faster than your body can replace the lost hair with hair of equivalent health, then you wind up balding.

What usually happens is that hair falls, and then because of poor follicle health (due to lifestyle, chronic stress, snps, etc.) it is replaced with hair of poorer quality. The growth cycle is also shortened, so if, for example, you lose a 2ft fully healthy shaft of hair that it took you 1.5 years to grow, it might be replaced with a hair of less length and less thick in the shaft, that only grows for a year before falling out. You keep losing that hair for a few years with the decreasing growth/shed cycle, and it gets to where it can't grow more than a thin, fine nub. Vellus hair. When that happens to enough hairs on your head, you're bald.

How long it takes for this to happen (3 years v. 10 years, for instance) depends upon your lifestyle, follicle health (directly related to lifestyle) and probably snps. People with no snps for balding not being affected at all, no matter what the lifestyle. Lucky barstids.

Thanks for the detailed response.
My hair loss situation seems to be worse than most men my age, but not one in my family has had hair lost at the age of 23 as I have.
My hair loss was brought on by heavy drinking and alcoholism and extreme emotional stress about 2 years ago and I've lost more than half of my hair.
I'm beginning to lose hope. Building a good laser helmet with quality diodes is the only option that I really have.
How did you get your snps for hair loss checked?

 

[whodathunkit]

How did you get your snps for hair loss checked?

I got my DNA analyzed via 23andMe. Then ran the bulk DNA file through an online module called "Promethease". Promethease doesn't just analyze for hair loss, it analyzes everything it can. So you get a report that tells you what genes you have that are correlated for cancer risk, diabetes, Alzheimer's, stuff like that. A really interesting process. One of the best five bucks I've ever spent.

BUT...if you're the type of person that obsesses over the bad and thereby discounts the good, then I don't advise doing this. If you're that type and find out you have a bunch of snps for baldness or whatever, it could throw you.

I'm beginning to lose hope. Building a good laser helmet with quality diodes is the only option that I really have.

It's been over 10 years since I realized my hair was thinning as badly as it was. It knocked me for a loop that took me years to recover from...I literally cried over my hair multiple times per day, for several years. I'd get so overwhelmed with it that if I was out in public I"d have to go to the bathroom and sit in a stall for a few minutes to weep. I'm way over that now, but it was ruff for a while.

My advice from this perspective: the first thing you need to do is discipline yourself into a good, healthy eating style. This will help alleviate the depression because it will bring your neurotransmitters back into whack, so that you're able to logically and realistically deal with your hair loss. Getting my neurotransmitters back into whack was essential for me to get over the depression and shock of hair loss. These days I can usually be happy with the hair I've got left while also remaining optimistic about hitting on the right combo of therapeutics to regrow what I've lost. A good diet will also nourish your hair follicles so that they're better able to respond to whatever therapeutic measures you try. It can be tough to discipline yourself into consistently eating well if you're used to partying and eating junk food, but it's a worthwhile endeavor.

If you can't discipline yourself into a healthy lifestyle then you may have to live with the status quo until you can. A laser helmet probably won't overcome a lousy lifestyle, although it may for some. It didn't for me, though. I've had a 300 diode OMG (he made it, not me) since 2009. I haven't used it in nearly five years, although I recently began using it consistently again. Too soon to tell about results from that, though.

Also to consider is that the helmet takes discipline, too. You must use it every other day, 20mins/day, for at least three months and probably more like six to get results.

Not trying to be a hardass :) just trying to "hep" you to the realities of the situation, so that maybe you can overcome it now, while you're young. If you don't have a healthy lifestyle complete with an eating style that's good for you (which may not be strictly Peat, I personally have found I need more starch than he recommends, other's mileage varies) then it will be triply hard for your hair to recover. I've been battling that sad fact for 10 years because I couldn't get myself to consistently overcome my inert, crappy lifestyle. I'd be good for a few months, and then slide back for six more. Can't do it like that. If you've already got damage, you gotta be consistent or it doesn't work.

P.S. I just read back over this and realized it sounds really pessimistic. I don't mean it to, truly. Please don't take it that way. I think we *can* recover our hair, or at the very least keep what we have and regrow a bit more. If I didn't think that I wouldn't still be trying after all these years. :) Never say die!! But we also have to face the reality.

Soft-pedaling the challenges of this very gnarly problem doesn't do any of us any good. Hope that makes sense. Good luck!

 

[tobieagle]

I know several men who have a nearly perfect hairline but are obese and hypothyroid, and that for years.

If you let the number of hairs on your scalp define you as a man, you are in deep trouble.

I would love to know where this obsession about hair came from. It's definetely a recent trend.


This is a sculpture of Gaius Julius Caesar.
Look at his poor hairline.
He was probably a real puss*y because he ate too much PUFAs.

 

[Dhair]

I know several men who have a nearly perfect hairline but are obese and hypothyroid, and that for years.

If you let the number of hairs on your scalp define you as a man, you are in deep trouble.

I would love to know where this obsession about hair came from. It's definetely a recent trend.


This is a sculpture of Gaius Julius Caesar.
Look at his poor hairline.
He was probably a real puss*y because he ate too much PUFAs.

How could it be a recent trend?
If you are a young man or a woman and you are losing your hair, it has a profound effect on how other people see you and how you see yourself. If you don't have these problems then I could see why it wouldn't make any sense to you.

I got my DNA analyzed via 23andMe. Then ran the bulk DNA file through an online module called "Promethease". Promethease doesn't just analyze for hair loss, it analyzes everything it can. So you get a report that tells you what genes you have that are correlated for cancer risk, diabetes, Alzheimer's, stuff like that. A really interesting process. One of the best five bucks I've ever spent.

BUT...if you're the type of person that obsesses over the bad and thereby discounts the good, then I don't advise doing this. If you're that type and find out you have a bunch of snps for baldness or whatever, it could throw you.


It's been over 10 years since I realized my hair was thinning as badly as it was. It knocked me for a loop that took me years to recover from...I literally cried over my hair multiple times per day, for several years. I'd get so overwhelmed with it that if I was out in public I"d have to go to the bathroom and sit in a stall for a few minutes to weep. I'm way over that now, but it was ruff for a while.

My advice from this perspective: the first thing you need to do is discipline yourself into a good, healthy eating style. This will help alleviate the depression because it will bring your neurotransmitters back into whack, so that you're able to logically and realistically deal with your hair loss. Getting my neurotransmitters back into whack was essential for me to get over the depression and shock of hair loss. These days I can usually be happy with the hair I've got left while also remaining optimistic about hitting on the right combo of therapeutics to regrow what I've lost. A good diet will also nourish your hair follicles so that they're better able to respond to whatever therapeutic measures you try. It can be tough to discipline yourself into consistently eating well if you're used to partying and eating junk food, but it's a worthwhile endeavor.

If you can't discipline yourself into a healthy lifestyle then you may have to live with the status quo until you can. A laser helmet probably won't overcome a lousy lifestyle, although it may for some. It didn't for me, though. I've had a 300 diode OMG (he made it, not me) since 2009. I haven't used it in nearly five years, although I recently began using it consistently again. Too soon to tell about results from that, though.

Also to consider is that the helmet takes discipline, too. You must use it every other day, 20mins/day, for at least three months and probably more like six to get results.

Not trying to be a hardass :) just trying to "hep" you to the realities of the situation, so that maybe you can overcome it now, while you're young. If you don't have a healthy lifestyle complete with an eating style that's good for you (which may not be strictly Peat, I personally have found I need more starch than he recommends, other's mileage varies) then it will be triply hard for your hair to recover. I've been battling that sad fact for 10 years because I couldn't get myself to consistently overcome my inert, crappy lifestyle. I'd be good for a few months, and then slide back for six more. Can't do it like that. If you've already got damage, you gotta be consistent or it doesn't work.

P.S. I just read back over this and realized it sounds really pessimistic. I don't mean it to, truly. Please don't take it that way. I think we *can* recover our hair, or at the very least keep what we have and regrow a bit more. If I didn't think that I wouldn't still be trying after all these years. :) Never say die!! But we also have to face the reality.

Soft-pedaling the challenges of this very gnarly problem doesn't do any of us any good. Hope that makes sense. Good luck!

I appreciate the thoughtful post. And yes , it does sound very pessimistic. Your experience particularly with the laser helmet seems to be the most discouraging part. Other people who I've discussed it with have had great results with it. Not just stopping hair loss ,but they've seen significant regrowth. Perhaps they are lying.

 

[schultz]

I know several men who have a nearly perfect hairline but are obese and hypothyroid, and that for years.

If you let the number of hairs on your scalp define you as a man, you are in deep trouble.

I would love to know where this obsession about hair came from. It's definetely a recent trend.


This is a sculpture of Gaius Julius Caesar.
Look at his poor hairline.
He was probably a real puss*y because he ate too much PUFAs.

What's wrong with his hairline? Just looks like he has a high brow. The hair on his sides is slicked forward, which was probably some sort of style, so it makes it look a little funny.

 

[Dhair]

What's wrong with his hairline? Just looks like he has a high brow. The hair on his sides is slicked forward, which was probably some sort of style, so it makes it look a little funny.

Actually it's been written that he had a comb over and he was completely bald. His comb over was kind of ridiculous and that was fodder for many jokes at the time.

 

[schultz]

Actually it's been written that he had a comb over and he was completely bald. His comb over was kind of ridiculous and that was fodder for many jokes at the time.

Oh haha, I didn't know that about him. Hard to tell from the sculpture. Maybe that explains the odd style.

 

[whodathunkit]

I think by most accounts Caesar was a very handsome guy, and from what we can glean from the vast distance of a couple millennia is his balding head was really painful for him. Ironically, he's also said to have kept a private "plucker" on staff to keep the rest of his body completely devoid of hair. Every body part, even his junk. But maybe that's just because he spent so much time living in army tents that that was the best way to avoid having body lice.

Other people who I've discussed it with have had great results with it. Not just stopping hair loss ,but they've seen significant regrowth. Perhaps they are lying.

I haven't really been around people with hair loss in a while, so I can't say. OMG used to have a forum but it's gone now...probably too much of a PITA to referee it. But maybe we don't know what else the helmet users are doing as an adjunct. OMG himself had a couple hair transplants, I know, and the helmet allowed him to keep the second one. IIRC the people who do best with hair loss (like Danny Roddy) usually do a lot with lifestyle modification and use mechanical or topical interventions strictly as an adjunct to improving the biochemistry necessary to support healthy hair follicles. YMMV. Good luck!