Anemia?

[Olmec]

A couple of years ago I tested low for serum copper and found it very reliable because copper supplementation helped a lot.

Just curious – do you recall what form of copper you supplemented with?

 

[Beatrix_]

Just curious – do you recall what form of copper did you supplement with?

I always take Copper glycine together with Zinc citrate, but next time I am going to try drinking water from copper mugs. I will update with my results here.

 

[Peachy]

I always take Copper glycine together with Zinc citrate, but next time I am going to try drinking water from copper mugs. I will update with my results here.

We plumbed our house with copper but afterward I heard (from a trusted source) that inorganic copper isn’t something we want. I didn’t look into it, bc what can I do at this point? But may be something to explore further.

 

[Beatrix_]

We plumbed our house with copper but afterward I heard (from a trusted source) that inorganic copper isn’t something we want. I didn’t look into it, bc what can I do at this point? But may be something to explore further.

Yes, I have read about it too, thanks for the hint. At the same time, there are hundreds of people vouching for copper mugs, bottles and bracelets, so I decided to give it a go.

 

[Beatrix_]

My husband and I drank water from a copper mug (he is copper deficient, I am not). Our impression is that it helps with acute deficiency but it is indeed better to get copper bound to an organic molecule, and better yet together with anti-inflammatory substances that usually accompany copper in nature like vit E, and together with zinc which will provide a slow-release effect as the body claims it during the digestion.

Unfortunately we can't find good liver sources locally, but I usually don't have a good response from eating liver anyway.

 

[Olmec]

@Beatrix_
Yes, the organic bound copper seems to be ideal in all respects.
Many fruits & vegetables provide good % of copper, pomegranates in particular.
I read on the forum that manganese lowers copper levels.

 

[Beatrix_]

@Beatrix_
Yes, the organic bound copper seems to be ideal in all respects.
Many fruits & vegetables provide good % of copper, pomegranates in particular.
I read on the forum that manganese lowers copper levels.

IME copper from food is not enough to resolve a deficiency, but after normalizing levels via supplementation the foods help to maintain good levels. There is too much antagonism in food sources like histamine, salicylates and fiber.

 

[Olmec]

@Beatrix_
Have you seen this thread on copper?

Why Ray switched into high vegetable, or copper as hidden variable

High copper and high mineral bases are specifically harvested taste-wise and feeling-wise in traditional eating, coupled with high carb. On the other hand, a classical Peating diet as very high carb with fructose, calcium, metabolic enhancers, and less serotonin-estrogen in general, necessitate...

raypeatforum.com

Some perspectives on this forum are that non-food copper supplements can contribute to copper related problems in the long-term.

I'm curious what dose of copper glycinate were you using, and did you get a blood test to ascertain any changes in copper (or ceruloplasmin) levels?

 

[Beatrix_]

@Beatrix_
Have you seen this thread on copper?

Why Ray switched into high vegetable, or copper as hidden variable

High copper and high mineral bases are specifically harvested taste-wise and feeling-wise in traditional eating, coupled with high carb. On the other hand, a classical Peating diet as very high carb with fructose, calcium, metabolic enhancers, and less serotonin-estrogen in general, necessitate...

raypeatforum.com

Some perspectives on this forum are that non-food copper supplements can contribute to copper related problems in the long-term.

I'm curious what dose of copper glycinate were you using, and did you get a blood test to ascertain any changes in copper (or ceruloplasmin) levels?

I did test before and after supplementation. Copper issues are not to be taken lightly, and copper supplementation is short-term only.

 

[Beatrix_]

BTW my supplementation for copper deficiency was Copper glycinate 1 mg + Zn citrate 15 mg + collagen

 

[Olmec]

.@Beatrix_
What would you consider as key signs/symptoms indicating copper deficiency, or low ceruloplasmin? (aside from via blood test results)

 

[Runenight201]

Thank you for the encouragement. I've never been vegan or even vegetarian but I haven't always found it easy to consume red meat. The change in food craving (the absence of) comes as a result of challenging health issues. I'm eating red meat now but cautious not to exceed safe phosphate levels - not that I know what they are but if my kidneys start to hurt I will report here.

Red meat is going to be the best way to raise RBC count and iron levels. Heme iron is most bioavailable. If a severe deficiency is occuring then it is going to take a consistent steady intake of meat to replace. What is the optimal level? Honestly I’m not sure what the daily weight would be relative to personal weight and activity level, but anytime hunger is present I’d recommend intaking in red meat with the meal.

I would also highly recommend turnip greens or some other form greens that work for you to eat in combination with the meat. That way you maintain a balanced phosphate to calcium ratio. Ray himself has said turnips are safe, and I personally find them delicious.

You can mix with the greens with salt, mushrooms, and red meat, thereby ensuring adequate dietary intake of bioavailable sodium, magnesium, potassium, iron, copper, and calcium.

It’s a nutrient powerhouse, along with animal fats and protein which are so important for hormonal and muscular health.

“Biotin and vitamin B6 and panthenic acid and selenium and copper are things that are among the first to become deficient if you try to run on too much coffee and sugar and not enough food.” Ray Peat

“In dogs and horses, many years ago, they saw that dogs and horses both suffered spinal nerve compression and paralysis of the rear legs was a common result from a compression of the spinal cord. They found that a copper deficiency was responsible, and keeping horses indoors, eating dry hay was considered responsible for the copper deficiency. But the absence of light is one of the things that makes your respiratory enzymes lose its necessary copper. So the combination of darkness and possibly a copper deficiency in the diet will cause an energy failure, leading to a swelling of the connective tissues, leading to the pinching of the nerves.” Ray Peat

That is really fascinating stuff. If you think about the lifestyle of the average modern person its a lack of sunlight, caloric restriction, excessive coffee and sugar intake, which will lead to exactly those conditions Ray was talking about.

 

[Peatress]

Thanks @Runenight201 No calorie restriction. My appetite is not what it used to be so force feeding is not fun but I am doing it. The disadvantage of living in the UK is the lack of sunlight (ignore the climate police) and the limited choices for thyroid treatment. I think thyroid might resolve the appetite issues.

 

[Runenight201]

Thanks @Runenight201 No calorie restriction. My appetite is not what it used to be so force feeding is not fun but I am doing it. The disadvantage of living in the UK is the lack of sunlight (ignore the climate police) and the limited choices for thyroid treatment. I think thyroid might resolve the appetite issues.

I’m the same way I believe that is a common symptom from a lowered metabolism and chronic stress. Cortisol gets elevated and this results in appetite suppression.

Thyroid is for sure worth trying but it never really worked for me.

If you can escape all stress for a day or two to let your body reset and drop your cortisol levels, then when hunger hits you gotta go big with the highly nourishing foods and safe foods: meat, potatoes, greens, mushrooms, fruit, dairy.

An alternative would be a drug/hormone to lower stress and return hunger cues. Cypro comes to mind, although I was never a fan of the drowsiness.

 

[Peatress]

I am not really sure I can escape my injuries even for one day but I understand what you are saying @Runenight201

My cortisol seems to be within normal range, according to tests, which is probably why I respond so poorly to anything that lowers it. Cypro is good for sleep but it’s constipating and it really isn’t helpful if you have work to do. I will continue to focus on nutrition and repeat the blood tests once I am sure all the nurses have stopped shedding (don’t take this bait). Thanks for your feedback.

 

[Runenight201]

I am not really sure I can escape my injuries even for one day but I understand what you are saying @Runenight201

My cortisol seems to be within normal range, according to tests, which is probably why I respond so poorly to anything that lowers it. Cypro is good for sleep but it’s constipating and it really isn’t helpful if you have work to do. I will continue to focus on nutrition and repeat the blood tests once I am sure all the nurses have stopped shedding (don’t take this bait). Thanks for your feedback.

Well hey there's always those at home blood tests if you really have to know and don't want to wait.

Are you able to walk? Activity can stimulate hunger as well.

 

[Peatress]

Well hey there's always those at home blood tests if you really have to know and don't want to wait.

Are you able to walk? Activity can stimulate hunger as well.

The kind of exercise that would stimulate appetite is not possible nor would it be advisable. Walking hasn't helped.

Home testing is a good idea, I’ve used it previously. But someone on the forum was questioning their reliability which has made me opt for getting blood drawn at a clinic instead. It wasn’t so long ago that I did the last test. I don’t mind waiting till after shedding season.

 

[Runenight201]

The kind of exercise that would stimulate appetite is not possible nor would it be advisable. Walking hasn't helped.

Home testing is a good idea, I’ve used it previously. But someone on the forum was questioning their reliability which has made me opt for getting blood drawn at a clinic instead. It wasn’t so long ago that I did the last test. I don’t mind waiting till after shedding season.

Do you mean resistance training? Have you ever tried Myofascial Release Therapy? You pretty much get a foam roller and just roll all your big muscle groups around on it. It truly is magical….perhaps that might help stimulate your appetite.

 

[Peatress]

Do you mean resistance training? Have you ever tried Myofascial Release Therapy? You pretty much get a foam roller and just roll all your big muscle groups around on it. It truly is magical….perhaps that might help stimulate your appetite.

Myofascial release is really helpful for a lot of aliments - I've read a copy of books on the topic. Foam rolling is helpful. I should imagine that targeted treatment to the abdomen might improve digestion.

 

[Peatress]

Generative Energy: Restoring the Wholeness of Life By Ray Peat


Some quotes on copper

When estrogen is elevated (as at puberty, or in pregnancy, or with medical estrogen treatment) the absorption of iron is stimulated. During aging, the body's load of iron increases, especially if there is a deficiency of copper, and the body's content of copper decreases with age. Copper is an essential component of cytochrome oxidase, which has the crucial last position in the mitochondrial respiratory system. Copper is a component of the cytoplasmic SOD enzyme, which decreases with age. Ceruloplasmin, a major copper-containing protein, helps to keep iron in its safe oxidized form. Copper is involved in the production of melanin (itself an antioxidant) and elastin. The loss of melanin, elastin, and respiratory capacity, which is so characteristic of senescence, is also produced by excessive exposure to cortisol.

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The protein, metallothionein, is rich in sulfhydryl groups, which bind heavy metals. It is assumed that this protein helps to detoxify and eliminate the toxic metals. This protein is in-duced by exposure to either a heavy metal or cortisol. A larger amount is produced in response to the combination of heavy metals and cortisol, than by either alone. Since copper, like the toxic metals cadmium, lead, mercury, and silver, reacts strongly with sulfhydryl groups, the body is likely to lose some copper when it is subjected to heavy metals or cortisol. I think this chronic loss of copper accounts for the obvious features of aging, such as loss of elasticity of the skin, lungs, and blood vessels, the depigmentation (demelanization) of skin, hair, and (in Parkinson's disease) substantia nigra, and for the decrease in respiratory capacity. The replacement of the copper by iron (and the loss of the copper-enzymes which protect against iron-catalyzed free radicals) probably accounts for the increased formation of lipofuscin during aging. When copper-dependent mitochondrial respiration fails, lipofuscin has the ability to sustain energy production through glycolysis (by keeping the coenzyme NAD, nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide, relatively oxidized), so it is possible that lipofuscin is a primitive sort of defense against stress.

In animals, copper supplementation can restore natural color to white hair, and in one experiment, it increased longevity. At present, there isn't enough knowledge about the safety of different ways of administering supplemental copper. It can be toxic, and it oxidizes other nutrients. Besides choosing foods high in copper and low in iron and other heavy metals, other dietary choices which support thyroid function will tend to promote the retention of copper. Other dietary practices can minimize our production of cortisol (e.g., combining fruits and proteins, since protein foods lower blood sugar and stimulate the secretion of cortisol).

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Someone suspected that copper accelerated aging by causing free radical reactions, and fed a chelator (gluconic acid) to animals, and extended their lives by 10 or 12%. In his next experiment, he fed them both the chelator and extra copper, thinking he would counteract the life extension, but these animals lived 22% longer. He next fed copper alone, and found that it extended the life-span by about 11%, so its effect was additive with that of the chelator. I suspect the chelator was removing iron, and maybe other toxic metals. At a dose about 50 times larger than normal, copper did shorten the life-span by several percent.

Black sheep will produce white wool if they are fed an excess of molybdenum. This is supposedly caused by a displacement of copper. I think we probably accumulate too much of the wrong metals, such as iron, with aging and stress.