Why I Believe Very Low Fat ("carbosis") May Be Superior For Lean Bulking

[schultz]

How to get the fat solubles vitamins on a low fat diet

Fat soluble vitamins can still be absorbed on a fat-free diet, just less efficiently.

In rats it has been shown (at least in one study) that a very high fat meal has the potential to be actually worse for D3 absorption than a low fat meal. Low-fat was superior to both high-fat and no-fat. Some studies have suggested that PUFA can be detrimental to fat soluble vitamin absorption so this might explain the odd findings.

Meal conditions affect the absorption of supplemental vitamin D3 but not the plasma 25‐hydroxyvitamin D response to supplementation
Dietary fat increases vitamin D-3 absorption. - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(05)72907-6/fulltext

but I eat hundreds of grams of sugar a day and don't have any liver fat (DEXA confirmed)

Eating liver or eggs probably helps with this quite a bit. Masterjohn pointed out that choline appears to be protective. https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2010/11/23/sweet-truth-about-liver-and-egg-yolks/

Thanks for that fellas. @Gadsiesimply eat to hunger, keep metabolism high and you'll naturally lose weight when your body knows it's 'safe' to do so.

I don't like this idea (for myself, personally) because I think of it as guessing. If I decide to lose weight then I am not going to guess. I believe it is mentally unhealthy to be in fat-loss mindset for too long. I'm talking about the type of people who seem to be always trying to lose weight or never seem happy or satisfied. If you really want to lose fat then I think it is prudent to count calories. This allows you to eat in a range that is not too low or too high and also allows you to lose the fat in a timely manor. Funny thing is, most people think losing 1lbs a week is way too slow. They want like 20lbs a month or something. "It's either 20lbs a month or nothing!" They try this or that crash diet for a month and then give up.

Massively releasing PUFA would absolutely be more stressful, because the body wont be able to safely handle it all, leading to damage.
Not to mention the massive inflammatory response from excessive lean tissue breakdown caused by extreme caloric restriction.

and the high amounts of PUFA could lower the thyroid as well.

 

[fradon]

This is a post f0r the ones into fitness, which I understand is a controversial topic in the ray peat community, but I thought this was interesting enough to share. I'm not really explaining anything new here, because it's already been talked about a lot on this forum, but the link to bulking has just never been made. Bulking is essentially eating at a caloric surplus while lifting weights in order to gain weight (muscle). It is generally accepted that there will always be some fat gain accompanying this muscle gain. The goal of everybody trying to build a better body is obviously to limit fat gain as much as possible. This is where I believe eating extremely low fat can be beneficial. When you're eating at, say, a 300 calorie surplus a day, 200 of them will go to muscle, and 100 to fat (the numbers are made up for the sake of explanation). However, when all of your excess surplus calories come from protein and carbohydrates, there will be a lot less fat conversion because there is much more energy lost in the conversion from carbs and protein to bodyfat (20-30%), than fat to body fat (2-3%).
I gained a fair amount of fat, that seems to be drastically less now despite eating roughly the same amount of calories.

yeah for body builder they keep their fat really really low cause thier bodies are so starved for fat that even a small amount can go straight to fat...as low fat diets increases metabolism. their bodies also need a constant supply a fuel say eat enough fat just to keep those muscles fed but not enought for fat storage.

 

[Jem Oz]

yeah for body builder they keep their fat really really low cause thier bodies are so starved for fat that even a small amount can go straight to fat...

Is this even true? Or one of those mythical things someone said decades ago that became gospel....?

 

[fradon]

Is this even true? Or one of those mythical things someone said decades ago that became gospel....?

:)

 

[Deleted member 5487]

.

 

[Glassy]

Is this even true? Or one of those mythical things someone said decades ago that became gospel....?

Body builders tend to keep their fat very low when they’re in a caloric surplus because it assists with nutrient partitioning (more of the surplus to muscle creation than fat storage). It’s very hard for the human body to create fat from carbohydrates but it will store most fat consumed in a calorie surplus rather than burn it. Many body builders switch to low carb (moderate fat) when cutting/dieting because they believe it helps with fat burning and hunger management (dumping a lot of water weight is good for moral too lol). The less fat stored while bulking, the less time is required in a cutting phase which is essentially time they could be otherwise bulking.

Traditional bulking logic was that you needed a large surplus to put on muscle but it was subject to diminishing returns, with the extra calories just going to fat storage, with little to no additional muscle gains beyond a point. This brought about the concept of the lean bulk which sought to find the sweet spot in caloric intake/muscle gain where more time could be spent in a caloric surplus because subsequently long cuts weren’t required. One of the bulking strategies for hard gainers was GOMAD (gallon of milk a day) - if you drink a GOMAD and don’t put on muscle there’s probably a problem with your workouts.

 

[Glassy]

@Gadsie - Do you not dabble in the coconut oil at all?

I’ve not been eating high carb (mainly from sugar/fruits) for long (traditionally used high starch which is an effort) and I’m liking how I feel (my PWO meal doesn’t crash me as hard for sure). Fat gain has been minimal so far and I feel like I have more room to overeat without gaining much fat. Did you find your metabolism was able to adjust quicker to the higher cals mainly from sugar sources as opposed to starches?

 

[Jsaute21]

@Westside PUFAs just curious but how many meals do you typically eat in a day, and do you take any supplements? I agree with a lot of your points, particularly concerning good starch.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

@Westside PUFAs just curious but how many meals do you typically eat in a day, and do you take any supplements? I agree with a lot of your points, particularly concerning good starch.

Typically 2 large meals. I want to buy a scale so I can weigh in grams how much fills me up of a certain food. Calories are pointless because they don't tell you what you actually burn and they ignore the facts of difference between fat, sugar and protein. The only supplement I currently take is 225 mcg of iodine twice a week because I don't eat anything from the sea including seaweed.

 

[Deleted member 5487]

Typically 2 large meals. I want to buy a scale so I can weigh in grams how much fills me up of a certain food. Calories are pointless because they don't tell you what you actually burn and they ignore the facts of difference between fat, sugar and protein. The only supplement I currently take is 225 mcg of iodine twice a week because I don't eat anything from the sea including seaweed.

Your on to something.

I started to incorporate 2-3 large pressure cooked/boiled starches(potato/oats) as the base of my meals and found plethora of benefits. The benefits range from stable mental health, stable blood sugar, libido, more glycogen, more desire to workout, caffeine tolerance increased, decreased hunger..etc.

One time after a workout, I had 3 large potatos pressure cooked in salt water . My heart rate hit 100bpm and found a full skin flushing/warmth like the body was adequately fueled for once, even small hairs started sprouting on my balding temples.

Glucose is king.

Use to think you were a loose nut, but experimented and found you were right all along.

 

[cyclops]

In bodybuilding they say starch replenishes muscle glycogen and sugar replenishes liver glycogen, so bodybuilder always emphasize starches.

 

[Glassy]

In bodybuilding they say starch replenishes muscle glycogen and sugar replenishes liver glycogen, so bodybuilder always emphasize starches.

I’m pretty sure that they both break down into glucose in the blood stream and that there is minimal difference in where they are stored except perhaps when it comes to the fructose portion of the sugars. Many body builders put dextrose (pure glucose) into their shakes to maximis the glucose release while minimising fructose.

I still quite understand the affect fructose has from a Peat point of view.

 

[damngoodcoffee]

Calories are pointless because they don't tell you what you actually burn and they ignore the facts of difference between fat, sugar and protein.

Yeah this is something I always wonder about when people speak about calories. Shouldn't it be obvious even to the mainstream that it's a totally different thing to eat 1000 kcals of butter than 1000 kcals of rice. Or 1000 kcals of lean meat. Totally different thing for the body.

 

[Braveheart]

Typically 2 large meals. I want to buy a scale so I can weigh in grams how much fills me up of a certain food. Calories are pointless because they don't tell you what you actually burn and they ignore the facts of difference between fat, sugar and protein. The only supplement I currently take is 225 mcg of iodine twice a week because I don't eat anything from the sea including seaweed.

A good tracking program is essential for success...otherwise you are just blowin' in the wind.

 

[BibleBeliever]

Per week? I do triple that amount in a day.

Have you ever had any digestion issues with potatoes? I've tried several times to make them a staple; even tried the low-fat experiments, but their digestion is always terrible, no matter how I cook them and how much skin I cut off.
Usually after a day or sometimes it takes a couple they begin to cause extreme irritation. They usually cause deposits in my upper back/trap muscles that go away upon cessation.
I've never tried organic potatoes though; if that makes any difference. My main method of cooking was boiling.

They are the ideal carb, with an incredible nutritional profile, especially for their cost.

 

[Glassy]

Potatoes are part of the nightshade family (along with eggplants, tomatoes and peppers). Some people are sensitive to the toxins in the plants and fruit. I know they contain quite a decent amount of resistant starch if they are cooked and left to cool but this would likely result in gastric upset and gas rather than skeletal muscle pain.

It almost sounds like they’re giving you back gout?

 

[Gadsie]

@Gadsie - Do you not dabble in the coconut oil at all?

I’ve not been eating high carb (mainly from sugar/fruits) for long (traditionally used high starch which is an effort) and I’m liking how I feel (my PWO meal doesn’t crash me as hard for sure). Fat gain has been minimal so far and I feel like I have more room to overeat without gaining much fat. Did you find your metabolism was able to adjust quicker to the higher cals mainly from sugar sources as opposed to starches?

I only eat the 2-4 grams coconut oil thats in the storebougt rice pudding I eat (made with skim milk). I think that at the end of the day it doesn’t really matter for your physique if you eat a bit more or less fat, the reason I eat low fat is for health reasons, the potential benefit for fitness is just a bonus.

I don’t eat that much starch (about 100-200 grams of rice a day) most of my carbs come from skim chocolate milk, 3 litres a day.

 

[Sobieski]

Have you ever had any digestion issues with potatoes? I've tried several times to make them a staple; even tried the low-fat experiments, but their digestion is always terrible, no matter how I cook them and how much skin I cut off.
Usually after a day or sometimes it takes a couple they begin to cause extreme irritation. They usually cause deposits in my upper back/trap muscles that go away upon cessation.
I've never tried organic potatoes though; if that makes any difference. My main method of cooking was boiling.

They are the ideal carb, with an incredible nutritional profile, especially for their cost.

Yes, Potatoes make me constipated. I have no idea why.

 

[Deleted member 5487]

I’m pretty sure that they both break down into glucose in the blood stream and that there is minimal difference in where they are stored except perhaps when it comes to the fructose portion of the sugars. Many body builders put dextrose (pure glucose) into their shakes to maximis the glucose release while minimising fructose.

I still quite understand the affect fructose has from a Peat point of view.

Pure Dextrose spills over into fat stores and creates large insulin spikes.

Boiled/Pressure cooked in water of Oats/Potato/White rice for long periods of time are superior for muscle glycogen. This has to do with gelatinization of the starch molecules and adequate chewing allows for Salivary Amylase to "cleave" off glucose molecules and directly increase muscle glycogen storage and insulin sensitivity leaving you full and satisfied.

Baked/fried starch= Bad as it breaks the chains of glucose down at such high heats in the 300-600 degree ovens and dehydrates the molecules rather than hydrate and gelatinize. This dry starch is just pure energy and leads to fat gain/edema/bloating/gas common in starch consumption.

I am no extremist, and still drink/eat alot of orange juice/fruit. But the boiled starch has it's place for those looking to increase insulin sensitivity and athletes/workout.

People who have troubles going low fat, should try boiled starchs as fat free is incredibly easy since the muscles will be adequately fueled and are not screaming for fat.

Anyone trying to lose weight should simple eat boiled starchs+sugar+lean protein and do sprints at 90% max speed 2x a week. I got shredded in like 2 months following this. Eating three pressure cooked salted potatos aft

Read this it will change your view: Boiled-vs-Baked-Starch

 

[Westside PUFAs]

@Westside PUFAs, would you know if fat cells continue to aromatize when you lost the fat?

I don't know but that doesn't seem important to me because I don't think the body can store much fat when eating low fat or it does store some because of the nature of fatty acids but you're also always burning the already stored fat.

You create fat cells when you get fat, and fat cells decrease in size when you lose it, but they never disappear.

From what I've seen we don't always create new fat cells. It depends on the person. But yes your original fat cells don't go away unless you do something like Belkyra or something that destroys them.

started to incorporate 2-3 large pressure cooked/boiled starches(potato/oats) as the base of my meals and found plethora of benefits. The benefits range from stable mental health, stable blood sugar, libido, more glycogen, more desire to workout, caffeine tolerance increased, decreased hunger..etc.

Yep. I was laughing and pissed at myself at the same time when I realized this because I though to myself, "what a joke, all that stuff people say is BS."

Glucose is king.

Yea and people are so confused. "And that’s because cholesterol, next to glucose, is probably our single most important protective all-purpose molecule."-RP (HD sugar II)

Use to think you were a loose nut, but experimented and found you were right all along.

Thanks. When did you first read me? I'm just curious.

Yeah this is something I always wonder about when people speak about calories. Shouldn't it be obvious even to the mainstream that it's a totally different thing to eat 1000 kcals of butter than 1000 kcals of rice. Or 1000 kcals of lean meat. Totally different thing for the body.

Exactly.

Have you ever had any digestion issues with potatoes? I've tried several times to make them a staple; even tried the low-fat experiments, but their digestion is always terrible, no matter how I cook them and how much skin I cut off.

Usually after a day or sometimes it takes a couple they begin to cause extreme irritation. They usually cause deposits in my upper back/trap muscles that go away upon cessation.

I've never tried organic potatoes though; if that makes any difference. My main method of cooking was boiling.

They are the ideal carb, with an incredible nutritional profile, especially for their cost.

You may be allergic but probably not. It's most likely your flora. Unfortunately dairy and starch don't mix for most people. Most of the successful starchivores are also dairy free. You could have something like crohn's disease, diverticulitis or IBS. You could try antibiotics to clear everything out. When I first started eating this way there were a lot of problems but I figured it out over time. Trial and error. I also did lots of research.