Seriously Confused About CO2 After Reading Gbolduev's Thread

[gbolduev]

I doubt this. Bothers me about you is you never give cites .

Be that as it may, the haldane effect says that less oxygen present in high-altitude displaces less carbon dioxide and so there is actually more carbon dioxide rather than less in the body. That's what Ray says.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/stor...ga&s=56b8fc2c7fa3f1fe8ea7fe57b41ea88e10ca8f83

It is evident that a striking degree of acclimatisation was actually obtained, as on the fourth day J. S. H. could easily carry on with gas analyses, etc., and even work on the ergometer, ,for not only did the hemo- globin percentage fail to rise (since in both subjects it was lower on the fourth than the first day), but there was no lasting lowering of the alveolar CO2 pressure, which was almost as high on the morning of the fourth day as on that of the first day

Cites? I lived in the mountains and tested blood gases hundred times. Also this is fact, with gazzillion cites.

 

[gbolduev]

@gbolduev stated: People get sick these days, since they dont move and eat sugar. This creates too much Co2 which they cant breathe out. This forces your body to lower CO2 production in the cell. Otherwise your PH balance is going to be screwed up.

Completely false. If you don't move, you don't bring oxygen into the system. Sugar has two choices during glycolysis: 1) pyruvate fermentation or 2) pyruvate oxidation. Pyruvate fermentation produces lactate; pyruvate oxidation produces CO2 (via the Krebs cycle). Thus you wouldn't get CO2 from not moving, you would get lactic acid.

You are completely wrong

If you dont move you dont activate your symathetic nervous system you breath slower. This causes Co2 retention and kreb cycle will be stoped to balance the PH.

You should read again what I write. Most sick people are CO2 retainers. I worked with 100s of them ,Mattyb works with them also and confirms the same trends, of 1000s tests.

You dont move and eat , you retain CO2. You simply don;t breath out the CO2 that you create, this leads metabolism to slow down.

 

[lampofred]

Cites? I lived in the mountains and tested blood gases hundred times. Also this is fact, with gazzillion cites.

What do you think of these claims that high CO2:
-removes epigenetic limitations (high CO2 and low O2 in the uterus does this)
-increases brain size
-quenches free radicals
-regenerates cells (he said he has regenerated fingertips by completely sealing the finger in an airtight enclosure, allowing CO2 to build)
-neutralizes the effects of PUFA at very high levels
-allows cells to relax by energizing them

Those are all Peat's claims. Do they only apply to intracellular CO2 and not venous CO2? Then how would you explain the finger regeneration? Also there are several studies showing high CO2 and low O2 increases dopamine, which is beneficial, what is the explanation behind those?

Just trying to understand, not trying to attack you.

 

[Colin Nordstrom]

Agree to disagree.

 

[Xisca]

If you dont move you dont activate your symathetic nervous system you breath slower. This causes Co2 retention and kreb cycle will be stoped to balance the PH.

What happens to people who do not move but activate their SNS with stress?

I am ignorant about what replaces the krebs cycle when it stops...

I have easy pains and aches, too easy... I am going to try to increase my breathing without hyperventilating of course. At the moment I am active with more breathing, and outside, 1 hour per day minimum.

The more we have a metabolism like RP, the more we will find the same as him for ourselves anyway... What is helpful is to know who we are and guess what from others apply to ourself!

 

[Colin Nordstrom]

Maybe this is all anecdotal. But Ray Peat's writing and my experience are consistent.

 

[gbolduev]

What do you think of these claims that high CO2:
-removes epigenetic limitations (high CO2 and low O2 in the uterus does this)
-increases brain size
-quenches free radicals
-regenerates cells (he said he has regenerated fingertips by completely sealing the finger in an airtight enclosure, allowing CO2 to build)
-neutralizes the effects of PUFA at very high levels
-allows cells to relax by energizing them

Those are all Peat's claims. Do they only apply to intracellular CO2 and not venous CO2? Then how would you explain the finger regeneration? Also there are several studies showing high CO2 and low O2 increases dopamine, which is beneficial, what is the explanation behind those?

Just trying to understand, not trying to attack you.

Lol, just ask COPD people how it does all of that.
It kills immune system, it causes sever panic attacks.
I have no idea who writes all this garbage above. Just go and research COPD people and ask them what happens if they dont ventilate.
I worked with people with COPD, Hypercapnia is scary, hypocapnia is also bad

Body needs to be balanced, not hypoventilate nor hyperventilate, since in both cases you will be using buffers to compensate for the PH imbalance, respiratory acidosis or respiratory alkalosis

If you are using a buffer for something, this will create symptoms since you are sacrificing for some other system in the body when you use buffers.

This causes you to age. Anyone who either over breathes or under breathes will be aging.

Protein synthesis will be impaired in both hypoventilation and hyperventilation. In one it will be zinc deficiency and in another protein wasting and iron deficiency

 

[Makrosky]

I just got back from a camping trip at 8k feet, and had a much stronger metabolism, better sleep, more energy, etc. I have also sat at home, breathed in a paper bag, and felt tired, uninspired, and low metabolic rate.

LOL!

Could this just simpy be that camping at 8k were probably a good experience with friends, sorrounded by beautiness, to a place you never been before, etc...? All things that naturally increase metabolism, not strictly related to CO2.

While sitting in your sofa breathing in a paper bag.... well.... it says it all. Pathetic image compared to the former one (sorry no ofense with the pathetic, I also do pathetic things, just to compare the two images).

 

[Tarmander]

I found this about CO2 and bicarb in wiki, confirming what was said to Janelle about the different rate of change between CO2 and bicarbonate:
"Gradually, the body compensates for the respiratory alkalosis by renal excretion of bicarbonate, allowing adequate respiration to provide oxygen without risking alkalosis. It takes about four days at any given altitude"

Tarmander, I did not say it was impossible he said this, but impossible that it be true for almost everyone, for the reasons I said. How would you do to live this perfect life, if you live north and with no fruits? And if you live near the sea? You'd move house?

I said "I think of that as his kind of bottom of the pyramid, "this works for almost anyone," recommendation." I am not sure how you took that to mean that all 7 billion or so people have to move to a high elevation and because they can't, it's impossible. Obviously he was talking about hypometabolic people, and a cure for this.

 

[Tarmander]

LOL!

Could this just simpy be that camping at 8k were probably a good experience with friends, sorrounded by beautiness, to a place you never been before, etc...? All things that naturally increase metabolism, not strictly related to CO2.

While sitting in your sofa breathing in a paper bag.... well.... it says it all. Pathetic image compared to the former one (sorry no ofense with the pathetic, I also do pathetic things, just to compare the two images).

ha, it is kind of a pathetic image isn't it. :)

Basically as a type 1 diabetic with a dexcom, I know exactly how foods affect me, and insulin needed. At higher elevations, even accounting for more movement and exercise, I need less insulin and can eat more without blood sugar impact. My metabolism is just higher at higher elevations, even when I am not having fun but going for work.

 

[gbolduev]

ANTI AGING is the ability to keep the balance. Every person has to do different things to keep the balance. One should breath faster , another should breath slower to be perfect.

 

[Xisca]

Tarmander, let's say that it is impossible that something else does not work!

"What do you think of these claims that high CO2: ... "
Would the above be right if, instead of "high CO2", it reads "higher CO2 for people who have TOO LOW CO2" ?

 

[Xisca]

do different things to keep the balance. One should breath faster , another should breath slower to be perfect.

How do you go faster or slower?
How do you modify this?

 

[Regina]

This video is an example of misogi breathing exercises we did at my old school. We only did the full misogi routine a few times a year, but did a shorter version of this daily and as well as chanting.
There might be portions of it that people can do if they are stuck inside on their computers a lot.

 

[Tarmander]

Tarmander, let's say that it is impossible that something else does not work!

"What do you think of these claims that high CO2: ... "
Would the above be right if, instead of "high CO2", it reads "higher CO2 for people who have TOO LOW CO2" ?

Impossible that something else doesn't work? I have no idea I'm just saying what someone else said...

 

[paymanz]

There is countless of people benefiting from slow breathing, buteyko method.


And when ray says you retain more co2 in high altitude he knows what he says.

At first you start hyperventilate in high elevations, but you body adapts to it and learns how to retain co2.

He also likes lower oxygen pressure in high elevation.

 

[Xisca]

Now that I got it fine thanks to reading the wiki pages about altitude and adaptation to it,
especially with the 4 days that have to do with lowering bicarbonate by kidneys,
and also the fact that it was not always the best for athletes, etc...
Again it depends on the person and its biology...
worth reading that there is much more than CO2 about it!

so ...pretty much work to organize it ...I have edited and updated the quotes I put on the 1st page to work with.
There were some points I did not understand fully...
Who has some good explanations?

 

[sladerunner69]

You see you don't even know the birthday of your guru, Slader. October 12, 1936. He is only 81. On youtube it is 2005 he is 69 there. Grof looked much better in 70s, he looked 50 in 70s. He started to let down after his wife died in 2014.

Have no idea what you are talking about Peat looking stronger than Grof. Peat looks like corps now. Look at his recent pictures. On the videos on youtube he is only 69. My fathers age. My father looks so much younger than Peat it is not even funny. Peat could be his father in that video.

My grandfather is 87 and looks much better than Peat or Grof

Sorry but you honestly think that the face in the second photo looks healthier and younger than the face in the first? That is Ray at 75 and Stanislaf at ~80. Peat has zero observable wrinkles! Incredible for that age! Maybe you are being distracted because Stanislaf has a nice big chin, was probably quite handsome in his younger days. He also has a fairly decent head of hair for a man his age. That doesn't mean he looks better! The guy in the third photo is what a walking corps looks like. Ah, alcoholism. (btw bill murray is just 66)

 

[tara]

it is best to normal ventilate :))
if you hyperventilate or hypoventilate you will have problems.

That makes sense.

The question is pretty good, and there is not that much opposition between the persons whose names have been cited. They just talk about different examples, context, and also we may not understand fully what they say!

I don't know that I've seen any obvious contradiction between any of them on this, either.
Perhaps we confuse more in trying to assess whether a particular individual is hyper- or hypo- or normal ventilating, and therefore what will be useful for the individual.

But you do not want it too high!
And if Peat said "high CO2" meaning higher CO2 when it is too low?

+1

And what are these assumed facts "people get sick these days because they dont move and eat sugar." UMM no I see people not eating sugar or at least the right kinds and over exercising assuming they are being "health conscience."

There are more than one way to get sick. I think part of my route to getting sick included a period of years decades ago of eating a lot of refined sugar at a time when I was getting inadequate minerals and protein. I was not sedentary at the time, but whether I over-ate sugar or carbs overall compared to my needs time I'm not sure. At the time I thought the problem was the sugar. More recently, I've suspected deficiencies in other nutrients, as well as meal-timing mismatch, at least. My trajectory has also had periods of undereating that I suspect of causing harmful stress.

so why long distance thinking would be good ?

Yeah, I'm trying to cut back on that, especially of the repetitive treadmill variety. :)

What gbold is basically saying is that the higher Co2 in venous blood is forcing the body to lower energy production. Peat claims the higher amount of Co2 increases metabolic rate...

I wonder if it's something like this :

• Ideally, the cells produce a good amount of CO2, and the CO2 streams out into the blood, where it releases oxygen to the local cells to support ongoing oxidation, and the blood carries it away for exhalation, maintaining a normal optimal level of venous CO2
• If the CO2 in the venous blood gets too high (hypoventilation, COPD etc), the cells slow down so as to not raise the CO2 too high. This is CO2 pushing the top of the normal range.
• If the metabolism slows too much for some reason so the cells are not producing much CO2, and the venous blood CO2 gets low (eg relative hyperventilation), then the oxygen can not be released adequately to the cells, so that oxidation cannot easily get going again in the cells. This is CO2 pushing the lower limit of normal - what Buteyko addressed with his method. Sometimes may be useful therapeuticallly in the short term to boost the CO2 levels with bag-breathing or dry CO2 bath or similar just to get the CO2 blood threshhold up to where oxygen can be supplied again, so oxidation can resume - if all the other prerequisites are also available in the cell.

If I've understood this, then I can't see where it contradicts gbolduev's account (or Buteyko's or Peat's).

What do you think of these claims that high CO2:
-removes epigenetic limitations (high CO2 and low O2 in the uterus does this)
-increases brain size
-quenches free radicals
-regenerates cells (he said he has regenerated fingertips by completely sealing the finger in an airtight enclosure, allowing CO2 to build)
-neutralizes the effects of PUFA at very high levels
-allows cells to relax by energizing them

Those are all Peat's claims. Do they only apply to intracellular CO2 and not venous CO2? Then how would you explain the finger regeneration? Also there are several studies showing high CO2 and low O2 increases dopamine, which is beneficial, what is the explanation behind those?

My guess:
He's talking about the benefits of restoring CO2 to more optimal levels - normal CO2, not hypercapnia.
(In hypercapnia, CO2 levels need be lowered.)

There is countless of people benefiting from slow breathing, buteyko method.

I've read lots of those stories too, and I believe many of them - eg people with asthma. Maybe they were all people who were hyperventilating, and moved their breathing pattern towards normal ventilation? Maybe the ones who it wasn't going to be helpful for gave up quickly and we haven't read their stories?

 

[Broken man]

Haidut please stop this