Full Hydrogenation

[Such_Saturation]

Bile?

 

[DaveFoster]

I'm going to try this. Skim milk with fully hydrogenated 92-degree coconut oil added back in via a blender to the fat content of whole milk, all mixed with OJ concentrate of course. It's anti-heart attack/anti-cancer/anti-estrogen Orange Julius time.

 

[answersfound]

post 115863 I'm going to try this. Skim milk with fully hydrogenated 92-degree coconut oil added back in via a blender to the fat content of whole milk, all mixed with OJ concentrate of course. It's anti-heart attack/anti-cancer/anti-estrogen Orange Julius time.

Lol, you a crazy cat.

 

[Such_Saturation]

post 115863 I'm going to try this. Skim milk with fully hydrogenated 92-degree coconut oil added back in via a blender to the fat content of whole milk, all mixed with OJ concentrate of course. It's anti-heart attack/anti-cancer/anti-estrogen Orange Julius time.

You'd need a homogenizer for proper results I'm afraid...

 

[ecstatichamster]

I'm using purified coconut oil that is labeled 76degree f. Is this fully hydrogenated? I use it for cooking.

Edited to add, I believe that 92° is fully hydrogenated, but 76° is not

 

[michael94]

post 115945 I'm using purified coconut oil that is labeled 76degree f. Is this fully hydrogenated? I use it for cooking.

Edited to add, I believe that 92° is fully hydrogenated, but 76° is not

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned fully hydrogenated coconut oil should be around 100 F melting, so the 92 isn't fully hydrogenated I don't think. Regular coconut oil is 76

edit: from wikipedia

 

[DaveFoster]

You'd need a homogenizer for proper results I'm afraid...

I'd imagine those aren't in a college budget.

post 116022

post 115945 I'm using purified coconut oil that is labeled 76degree f. Is this fully hydrogenated? I use it for cooking.

Edited to add, I believe that 92° is fully hydrogenated, but 76° is not

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned fully hydrogenated coconut oil should be around 100 F melting, so the 92 isn't fully hydrogenated I don't think. Regular coconut oil is 76

edit: from wikipedia

You're correct, but even 92, 96, or 102 would be a significant improvement over standard CO.

 

[Such_Saturation]

post 116037

You'd need a homogenizer for proper results I'm afraid...

I'd imagine those aren't in a college budget.

post 116022

post 115945 I'm using purified coconut oil that is labeled 76degree f. Is this fully hydrogenated? I use it for cooking.

Edited to add, I believe that 92° is fully hydrogenated, but 76° is not

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned fully hydrogenated coconut oil should be around 100 F melting, so the 92 isn't fully hydrogenated I don't think. Regular coconut oil is 76

edit: from wikipedia

You're correct, but even 92, 96, or 102 would be a significant improvement over standard CO.

What about all the trans fat though?

 

[DaveFoster]

What about all the trans fat though?

Peat said that he'd rather eat trans fats than PUFA, but it's definitely a trade off. MCT's would be my first choice, but they don't have much lauric acid like CO.

I can't find a supplier for fully hydrogenated CO, so if anyone knows a source, it'd be much appreciated.

 

[ecstatichamster]

http://www.bulkapothecary.com/coconut-oil-92-degree/

Isn't it this?

 

[DaveFoster]

post 116086 http://www.bulkapothecary.com/coconut-oil-92-degree/

Isn't it this?

That's the one I found. I e-mailed them if it's partially or fully hydrogenated. I'd think partially, due to melting point (92, which is way lower than 98-104 degrees for fully hydrogenated).

 

[schultz]

That Welch Holme Clark brand has the melting point at 36-40 C. The wikipedia page states the same range, while the other brand states that it is 92 f which when converted is about 4 degrees less. However there is no reference for that statement on wikipedia. It's still a mystery.

I wonder if there are different degrees of hydrogenation, therefore different temperatures at which they melt.

I tried to research this a while back, looking through books, studies etc, and couldn't get a definitive answer. My feeling is that 92 degree coconut oil is not fully hydrogenated and is made 92 degrees because it tends to be used as soap. If it melted at 100 degrees it might not make a good soap as it wouldn't melt readily (unless you are using hot water with it of course). I have the WHC coconut oil and it came with batch documentation. The iodine value was listed at around 1 whereas their website says it's under 3. When I was looking for hydrogenated coconut oil, WHC was the only one I could find that listed the melting point higher than 92. They call it Coconut Oil no.101 and it has a melting range of 96.8 - 104 degrees. They call their regular coconut oil no.76 and it has a range of 74.3 - 80.6.

One more thing that has lead me believe the 92 isn't fully hydrogenated is that when Ray mentioned hydrogenated coconut oil on politics and science he made it seem like it was difficult to source. I've attached the clip of him talking about it.

 

[jaguar43]

I tried to research this a while back, looking through books, studies etc, and couldn't get a definitive answer. My feeling is that 92 degree coconut oil is not fully hydrogenated and is made 92 degrees because it tends to be used as soap. If it melted at 100 degrees it might not make a good soap as it wouldn't melt readily (unless you are using hot water with it of course). I have the WHC coconut oil and it came with batch documentation. The iodine value was listed at around 1 whereas their website says it's under 3. When I was looking for hydrogenated coconut oil, WHC was the only one I could find that listed the melting point higher than 92. They call it Coconut Oil no.101 and it has a melting range of 96.8 - 104 degrees. They call their regular coconut oil no.76 and it has a range of 74.3 - 80.6.

One more thing that has lead me believe the 92 isn't fully hydrogenated is that when Ray mentioned hydrogenated coconut oil on politics and science he made it seem like it was difficult to source. I've attached the clip of him talking about it.

Thanks for the reply, have you used the other coconut oils to make a comparison between them ? How would you describe the WHC coconut oil ? I have only tried the TKB one and it doesn't necessary seem different then the other coconut oils I tried. I have read somewhere that the fully hydrogenated coconut oil is used for researchers to studies the effects of fatty acid deficiency. If that is the case, then it should have some noticeable effects.

The reference that states that the fully hydrogenated is around 97-104 F is still unknown. It may come the book called World oilseeds by D. K. Salunkhe and the google books partially blocks some of the pages where he talks about coconut oil. There is very little information on hydrogenated coconut oil.

 

[schultz]

Thanks for the reply, have you used the other coconut oils to make a comparison between them ? How would you describe the WHC coconut oil ? I have only tried the TKB one and it doesn't necessary seem different then the other coconut oils I tried. I have read somewhere that the fully hydrogenated coconut oil is used for researchers to studies the effects of fatty acid deficiency. If that is the case, then it should have some noticeable effects.

The reference that states that the fully hydrogenated is around 97-104 F is still unknown. It may come the book called World oilseeds by D. K. Salunkhe and the google books partially blocks some of the pages where he talks about coconut oil. There is very little information on hydrogenated coconut oil.

I haven't tried any of the other hydrogenated ones. I'm still working on this 5 gallon thing I have in my kitchen. The WHC stuff is odorless, colorless and quite hard in my cold kitchen. I was using skim milk to make my latte's and would put around 2.5-5g of the stuff in 1.5cups of milk to make them with. The oil makes the latte taste significantly better. My goats just kidded though, so now I am mixing skim milk with goats milk and it is incredible. I also use the WHC stuff for things that require a lot of fat like mayonnaise and frying.

If you are trying to get the effect of EFAD then you have to keep your PUFA quite low. The common number researchers use is under 1% of the diet from PUFA for deficiency. This is 2.5g on a 2,500 calorie diet. This number is likely to high though. It's really dependent on what time of PUFA you are getting. If it's pure LA then the 1% rule might apply, but if it is a mix of LA and AA, then the number is going to be lower. AA is 3 times more effective at preventing EFAD than LA. If someone was only getting PUFA from pure omega-3, they could get 5% or so of their diet from it and still be in EFAD.

When I was fooling around with this stuff I remember deciding that my PUFA's should be kept under 0.7g a day for my calorie intake which was about 0.25% of my calories. There are ways, other than keeping PUFA low, to maximize this. For example, supplementing with CLA seems to exaggerate the effect. I think CLA competes with PUFA through certain pathways. Other things that would help amplify EFAD would be cholesterol (if you have a source for cholesterol that doesn't contain PUFA which is unlikely for most people) and maybe getting 25% of your diet from hydrogenated coconut oil.

I am going a little off topic with the CLA, but it's very interesting indeed. A lot of studies show CLA doing nothing and it might be that if PUFA is kept low then CLA works very well, but if PUFA is high in the diet then the CLA doesn't do anything in regards to weight loss. This might explain the conflicting studies. CLA has also been shown to be an anti-aromatase (I believe) and this might be due to the anti PUFA effect. One study even claimed that the anti-aromatase effect of mushrooms was due to the CLA in them.

Here are some quotes from studies:::

"Under the influence of dietary linoleate, the amounts of 20:3 [Mead acid] decreased rapidly, and the curve leveled off beyond 1.9% of calories. Dietary arachidonate achieved the same level of 20:3 concentration at an intake of only 0.65%, of calories, and thus proved to be about three times more efficient than linoleate. This agrees well with results of Turpeinen, who found arachidonate to be three times more efficient than linoleate on the basis of fat-deficiency symptoms using the method of “minimum dose for maximum response.”

"Fat-deficiency symptoms are cured by less than 0.5% of calories of dietary linoleate, and by even smaller levels of arachidonate - about 0.25% of calories. Linolenate has some beneficial influence upon dermatitis, but cannot cure fat deficiency completely. However, normal weight gain can be observed when any of the three EFA is fed at a level of approximately 1.5% of calories." - HANS MOHRHAUER and RALPH T. HOLMA, 1962

"The threshold for fish oil as the sole source of fat in prevention of EFAD in mice lies between 5% and 10%. This suggests an omega-6 fatty acid requirement between 0.314% and 0.629% of dietary energy when given in as a combination of LA and AA, roughly half of what is conventionally believed (1%). This is likely due to the small amounts of AA present in fish oil that have been found to be three times more effective than LA in preventing EFAD"

Both the cis-9,trans-11 and trans-10,cis-12 CLA isomers can be desaturated and elongated to 20-carbon fatty acids, including conjugated isomers of arachidonic acid. The same desaturase and elongase enzymes are responsible for the conversion of linoleic acid to arachidonic acid and CLA to conjugated isomers of arachidonic acid. CLA supplementation can diminish arachidonic acid stores in liver, muscle, and adipose tissue. It is possible that the desaturated and elongated isomers of CLA are responsible for the changes in body composition and apoptosis. Therefore, CLA may influence body fatness by competing for enzymes involved in essential fatty acid metabolism. - Hargrave et al. 2004

 

[jaguar43]

I haven't tried any of the other hydrogenated ones. I'm still working on this 5 gallon thing I have in my kitchen. The WHC stuff is odorless, colorless and quite hard in my cold kitchen. I was using skim milk to make my latte's and would put around 2.5-5g of the stuff in 1.5cups of milk to make them with. The oil makes the latte taste significantly better. My goats just kidded though, so now I am mixing skim milk with goats milk and it is incredible. I also use the WHC stuff for things that require a lot of fat like mayonnaise and frying.

If you are trying to get the effect of EFAD then you have to keep your PUFA quite low. The common number researchers use is under 1% of the diet from PUFA for deficiency. This is 2.5g on a 2,500 calorie diet. This number is likely to high though. It's really dependent on what time of PUFA you are getting. If it's pure LA then the 1% rule might apply, but if it is a mix of LA and AA, then the number is going to be lower. AA is 3 times more effective at preventing EFAD than LA. If someone was only getting PUFA from pure omega-3, they could get 5% or so of their diet from it and still be in EFAD.

When I was fooling around with this stuff I remember deciding that my PUFA's should be kept under 0.7g a day for my calorie intake which was about 0.25% of my calories. There are ways, other than keeping PUFA low, to maximize this. For example, supplementing with CLA seems to exaggerate the effect. I think CLA competes with PUFA through certain pathways. Other things that would help amplify EFAD would be cholesterol (if you have a source for cholesterol that doesn't contain PUFA which is unlikely for most people) and maybe getting 25% of your diet from hydrogenated coconut oil.

I am going a little off topic with the CLA, but it's very interesting indeed. A lot of studies show CLA doing nothing and it might be that if PUFA is kept low then CLA works very well, but if PUFA is high in the diet then the CLA doesn't do anything in regards to weight loss. This might explain the conflicting studies. CLA has also been shown to be an anti-aromatase (I believe) and this might be due to the anti PUFA effect. One study even claimed that the anti-aromatase effect of mushrooms was due to the CLA in them.

Here are some quotes from studies:::

"Under the influence of dietary linoleate, the amounts of 20:3 [Mead acid] decreased rapidly, and the curve leveled off beyond 1.9% of calories. Dietary arachidonate achieved the same level of 20:3 concentration at an intake of only 0.65%, of calories, and thus proved to be about three times more efficient than linoleate. This agrees well with results of Turpeinen, who found arachidonate to be three times more efficient than linoleate on the basis of fat-deficiency symptoms using the method of “minimum dose for maximum response.”

"Fat-deficiency symptoms are cured by less than 0.5% of calories of dietary linoleate, and by even smaller levels of arachidonate - about 0.25% of calories. Linolenate has some beneficial influence upon dermatitis, but cannot cure fat deficiency completely. However, normal weight gain can be observed when any of the three EFA is fed at a level of approximately 1.5% of calories." - HANS MOHRHAUER and RALPH T. HOLMA, 1962

"The threshold for fish oil as the sole source of fat in prevention of EFAD in mice lies between 5% and 10%. This suggests an omega-6 fatty acid requirement between 0.314% and 0.629% of dietary energy when given in as a combination of LA and AA, roughly half of what is conventionally believed (1%). This is likely due to the small amounts of AA present in fish oil that have been found to be three times more effective than LA in preventing EFAD"

Both the cis-9,trans-11 and trans-10,cis-12 CLA isomers can be desaturated and elongated to 20-carbon fatty acids, including conjugated isomers of arachidonic acid. The same desaturase and elongase enzymes are responsible for the conversion of linoleic acid to arachidonic acid and CLA to conjugated isomers of arachidonic acid. CLA supplementation can diminish arachidonic acid stores in liver, muscle, and adipose tissue. It is possible that the desaturated and elongated isomers of CLA are responsible for the changes in body composition and apoptosis. Therefore, CLA may influence body fatness by competing for enzymes involved in essential fatty acid metabolism. - Hargrave et al. 2004

Thanks for the reply. Since it's around summer, how would describe the consistence of the coconut oil ? Does it still represent a hard phase similar during winter time ? In liquid state, or in a state between liquid and solid, almost like "mushy" ? Depending where you live it should be a good indicator of whether it is really fully hydrogenated or not.

 

[schultz]

Thanks for the reply. Since it's around summer, how would describe the consistence of the coconut oil ? Does it still represent a hard phase similar during winter time ? In liquid state, or in a state between liquid and solid, almost like "mushy" ? Depending where you live it should be a good indicator of whether it is really fully hydrogenated or not.

It's not hard like in the winter anymore. I can scoop it out easier so it's softer. Kind of mushy hard? lol. I have a regular coconut oil and it's completely liquid now.

WHC did give me batch documentation and it gave an iodine value of 0.9. On their website it lists it as an iodine value of 3 max. Regular coconut oil has an iodine value of 6-11, beef tallow 37-55, soybean oil 120-141, corn oil 135-150.

 

[jaguar43]

It's not hard like in the winter anymore. I can scoop it out easier so it's softer. Kind of mushy hard? lol. I have a regular coconut oil and it's completely liquid now.

WHC did give me batch documentation and it gave an iodine value of 0.9. On their website it lists it as an iodine value of 3 max. Regular coconut oil has an iodine value of 6-11, beef tallow 37-55, soybean oil 120-141, corn oil 135-150.

Ok, how hot has it been at your place. Around what temperature has it been. Thanks

 

[ANDREW CHIN]

I was a little suspicious of the 92° coconut oil for a bit, thinking that maybe it was partially hydrogenated. There is surprisingly very little information on the internet about it.

Wikipedia says...



and also said...



However the source they cite doesn't talk about hydrogenation of coconut oil, but about hydrogenation of oil in general.

The textbook "Reducing Saturated Fats in Foods (Woodhead Publishing Series in Food Science, Technology and Nutrition)" has some information on hydrogenation and says this about coconut oil...



The reason it can melt below mouth temperature is because it has a lot of short chain saturated fats, whereas palm kernel oil can be hydrogenated to a higher melting point because it has more long chain saturated fats...


Do you think they MUFA and PUFA in hydrogenated palm and coconut oil are converted to stearic acid? I'm curious because when you see magnesium stearate listed as an ingredient in supplements, supposedly that is a combination of magnesium and hydrogenated stearic acid (from either cottenseed or palm oil).



The book acknowledges that...



also, the other source that I mentioned earlier from the wikipedia page says this...



32° Celsius for you yanks is about 90° Fahrenheit
41-42° Celsius, the number given for fully hydrogenated palm kernel oil, is 105.8-107.6° wow!

I hope you guys find that as interesting as I apparently do...

I was a little suspicious of the 92° coconut oil for a bit, thinking that maybe it was partially hydrogenated. There is surprisingly very little information on the internet about it.

Wikipedia says...



and also said...



However the source they cite doesn't talk about hydrogenation of coconut oil, but about hydrogenation of oil in general.

The textbook "Reducing Saturated Fats in Foods (Woodhead Publishing Series in Food Science, Technology and Nutrition)" has some information on hydrogenation and says this about coconut oil...



The reason it can melt below mouth temperature is because it has a lot of short chain saturated fats, whereas palm kernel oil can be hydrogenated to a higher melting point because it has more long chain saturated fats...



The book acknowledges that...



also, the other source that I mentioned earlier from the wikipedia page says this...



32° Celsius for you yanks is about 90° Fahrenheit
41-42° Celsius, the number given for fully hydrogenated palm kernel oil, is 105.8-107.6° wow!

I hope you guys find that as interesting as I apparently do...

 

[Jib]

Very curious to try this fully hydrogenated "Welch, Holme and Clark" coconut oil. Also interested in all the buzz about stearic acid around here lately.

I wonder if it would be possible to make a blend of fully hydrogenated coconut oil and stearic acid, and if that would be advantageous.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I wonder if it would be possible to make a blend of fully hydrogenated coconut oil and stearic acid, and if that would be advantageous.

Absolutely possible and very easy. I simply melt some HCO and Stearic Acid together in a bowl, mix, and let cool. I've been using it on my skin nightly, and it has made noticeable improvements. I used to have rough, cracked skin on my elbows, now it's smooth and hydrated. That's the most noticable difference, but I'vee seen other improvements, too.

For cooking, I usually just add both ingredients separately. I just find that easier, but no reason you can't prep the mixture beforehand.

HCO also has significantly more Stearic Acid than regular coconut oil, about 4 times as much. That's because the MUFA and PUFA turn into stearic acid.

There's other places that sell HCO, Toxinless.com lists a few more under the coconut oil tab, if you want to shop around.