Exercise the Ray Peat way?

[Sapien]

but what do you mean by ''brief session till failiure" ?

Basically, the concept of HIT (high intensity training) is that it is not only more efficient but OPTIMAL to only do one set of an exercise , all the way to momentary muscular failure. This is the antithesis of the high volume “pump” training popularized by Arnold. The concept was invented by Arthur Jones, and further popularized by famous bodybuilders Mike Mentzer and Dorian Yates. The mike mentzer tapes I mentioned in my OP are a great resource on this topic, as well as Arthur Jones original books “natilus bullitin 1 and 2”.

 

[UphillEndeavors]

After having followed Pavel Tsatsouline and Ray Peat for decades, it is easy to see the philosophies intersect in many ways.

 

[Krigeren]

Mentzers nutrition advice was actually very ahead of his competitors and dare I say even “peaty”! He emphasized the importance of carbohydrates, specifically simple carbohydrates, instead of protein. He was infamous for eating sweets even right before competition, whilst his competitors were eating rice and protein powder etc. He downplayed the abundance of protein that is common place at the time. He talks showing why eating a ton of protein is not beneficial and probably detrimental to muscle growth, and about how it was mostly a marketing gimmick to sell Whey(ste product) protein.
View: https://youtu.be/aL9wrPjjcq0

Yep, agree with most of what Mike Mentzer said there, most notably except for the "300 to 500 calorie surplus" per day based on "600 calories per pound of muscle". In my experience it needs to be more than that because every surplus calorie doesn't translate directly into muscle synthesis, as it is a very biologically expensive operation. Mike was trying to "sell" his method of training - if he told people they would have to eat 1000 more calories per day to get the most out of their training, few would've listened, especially back then. Based on personal accounts I've seen or heard, Mike almost certainly ate more than a "300 to 500 calorie surplus" when he was training to put on as much muscle as possible. Plus of course he used anabolic steroids.

 

[Sapien]

Yep, agree with most of what Mike Mentzer said there, most notably except for the "300 to 500 calorie surplus" per day based on "600 calories per pound of muscle". In my experience it needs to be more than that because every surplus calorie doesn't translate directly into muscle synthesis, as it is a very biologically expensive operation. Mike was trying to "sell" his method of training - if he told people they would have to eat 1000 more calories per day to get the most out of their training, few would've listened, especially back then. Based on personal accounts I've seen or heard, Mike almost certainly ate more than a "300 to 500 calorie surplus" when he was training to put on as much muscle as possible. Plus of course he used anabolic steroids.

I can guarantee you anything on the topic of bodybuilding he said was not to sell anything, although that may have came as a result. He was a firm believer in the importance of logic, human progress, scientific advancement, etc. He would not under any circumstances bend the truth for personal gain. John little described him as “never telling a lie in his life”.

I don’t agree that him telling people to eat 500 calories instead of 1000 would somehow increase his book sales; most every other bodybuilder was using the caloric surplus angle to sell protein powder; therefor it would actually hinder him to not follow that same line of thinking

But yes, I agree with you that his calculations were probably misguided for the reasons you stated. Another thing he neglected to consider is that training itself causes some damage to the muscle. So not only do you have to use protein to build new muscle, but repair the damage done. However, his opposition the concept that eating a ton of extra protein powder was going to grow more muscle was the main point he was trying to make; this was when protein powder first started taking off and all bodybuilders were convinced it was the secret formula to gains.

 

[Krigeren]

I can guarantee you anything on the topic of bodybuilding he said was not to sell anything, although that may have came as a result. He was a firm believer in the importance of logic, human progress, scientific advancement, etc. He would not under any circumstances bend the truth for personal gain. John little described him as “never telling a lie in his life”.

I don’t agree that him telling people to eat 500 calories instead of 1000 would somehow increase his book sales; most every other bodybuilder was using the caloric surplus angle to sell protein powder; therefor it would actually hinder him to not follow that same line of thinking

But yes, I agree with you that his calculations were probably misguided for the reasons you stated. Another thing he neglected to consider is that training itself causes some damage to the muscle. So not only do you have to use protein to build new muscle, but repair the damage done. However, his opposition the concept that eating a ton of extra protein powder was going to grow more muscle was the main point he was trying to make; this was when protein powder first started taking off and all bodybuilders were convinced it was the secret formula to gains.

I'm not saying he lied about his dietary advice, unless maybe from omission. He certainly did not give recovery (diet, sleep) nearly as much time as he did his training style, or as much time as it deserved in my opinion.

I believe Mike's primary goal was to advance his training theories. But also he had to provide for himself, and he did that thru books, consults and training sessions. I submit that if he would've also publicly advocated to increase calories by 50% to 100% per day while on his program, many would've put the book down and not recommended it to their friends. Especially if it meant they would have to lose their razorabzz while they gained muscle. Smart guy, I'm sure he knew his primary audience - young guys who's main goal was to attract gals at the beach.

I've done Mentzer HIT, it has worked for me and was especially handy when I didn't have the time or the will to spend an hour and a half in the gym multiple times per week. I've also had success following the Starting Strength program which is more volume / frequency and takes more of a commitment. The originator of that has gotten unrelenting derision because of his "gallon of milk per day" advice for younger lifters on a budget. That as it turns out is also kinda "Peaty" and is based on decades of training people.

On his website, you'll find this: The First Three Questions | Mark Rippetoe. Scroll down to "Question 3". That advice is relevant no matter the form of weight training you're doing. It's also in his book but a lot of people need a reminder when they post to his forum hence the article. I may well have had better success with Mentzer's program if that information was in Mike's books also. That advice is definitely one of the reasons the Starting Strength program has worked well for so many over the years.

 

[Sapien]

I'm not saying he lied about his dietary advice, unless maybe from omission. He certainly did not give recovery (diet, sleep) nearly as much time as he did his training style, or as much time as it deserved in my opinion.

I believe Mike's primary goal was to advance his training theories. But also he had to provide for himself, and he did that thru books, consults and training sessions. I submit that if he would've also publicly advocated to increase calories by 50% to 100% per day while on his program, many would've put the book down and not recommended it to their friends. Especially if it meant they would have to lose their razorabzz while they gained muscle. Smart guy, I'm sure he knew his primary audience - young guys who's main goal was to attract gals at the beach.

I've done Mentzer HIT, it has worked for me and was especially handy when I didn't have the time or the will to spend an hour and a half in the gym multiple times per week. I've also had success following the Starting Strength program which is more volume / frequency and takes more of a commitment. The originator of that has gotten unrelenting derision because of his "gallon of milk per day" advice for younger lifters on a budget. That as it turns out is also kinda "Peaty" and is based on decades of training people.

On his website, you'll find this: The First Three Questions | Mark Rippetoe. Scroll down to "Question 3". That advice is relevant no matter the form of weight training you're doing. It's also in his book but a lot of people need a reminder when they post to his forum hence the article. I may well have had better success with Mentzer's program if that information was in Mike's books also. That advice is definitely one of the reasons the Starting Strength program has worked well for so many over the years.

Mike trained several hundred clients with great success, I find it hard to believe he was telling them to eat more calories than he reccomend in his books articles and no one came out about it… I postulate that mark rippetoes clients had to eat more calories than mikes due to training more frequently. Going from 2000 maintence to 2500 on a mass gaining program seems sufficient to me. I would disagree that “no one can build muscle on 2500 calories”. Sure, maybe they can’t training high volume style.

 

[Sapien]

He certainly did not give recovery (diet, sleep) nearly as much time

I like mikes views on nutrition. He had a whole 50 minute video on bodybuilding nutrition
View: https://youtu.be/aL9wrPjjcq0
, where he emphasized a diet high in simple carbohydrates (peaty) and urged people not to fall for the whey protein industries marketing gimmicks. I agree with him that overloading on protein is not a good strategy, and that moderate protein, high carbohydrate with 15% fat for hormone levels is good ratios. He gave a personal anecdote in the video about his experience with “bulking” and how all it did was make him fat. I disagree wholeheartedly that a strength athlete needs to overload on calories the way rippatoe suggests

 

[Krigeren]

I like mikes views on nutrition. He had a whole 50 minute video on bodybuilding nutrition
View: https://youtu.be/aL9wrPjjcq0
, where he emphasized a diet high in simple carbohydrates (peaty) and urged people not to fall for the whey protein industries marketing gimmicks. I agree with him that overloading on protein is not a good strategy, and that moderate protein, high carbohydrate with 15% fat for hormone levels is good ratios. He gave a personal anecdote in the video about his experience with “bulking” and how all it did was make him fat. I disagree wholeheartedly that a strength athlete needs to overload on calories the way rippatoe suggests

Weight, height and lifts?

 

[Krigeren]

Mike trained several hundred clients with great success, I find it hard to believe he was telling them to eat more calories than he reccomend in his books articles and no one came out about it… I postulate that mark rippetoes clients had to eat more calories than mikes due to training more frequently. Going from 2000 maintence to 2500 on a mass gaining program seems sufficient to me. I would disagree that “no one can build muscle on 2500 calories”. Sure, maybe they can’t training high volume style.

I asked weight, height & lifts above to try and figure out where you're coming from. Might sound argumentative but really I'm trying to help not only you but people on the board who want to gain muscle and strength. The subject comes up a lot. And also it would be cool for someone relatively untrained and young(ish) to give Mentzer's program an honest try by eating (and sleeping) enough to fuel the growth because I did not. I'm assuming you're male also. Maybe all that doesn't apply to you and you are already a stud in the gym; if so disregard.

As to Rippetoe, I tend to listen to him for these reasons: I forget exactly what the number is, but Mark Rippetoe has probably personally coached over 10,000 people over several decades. He's owned his own gym for decades and if people don't get results they'd quit going to his gym and he would no longer own it. He's aware of Mentzer's work. His mentors more or less were the Olympic lifters from the US heyday of the 60's and powerlifters from the 80's heyday. They obviously tried all of the different methods of applying stress. I believe Mark has said that he personally has tried HIT, and his current program is an amalgamation of what he's found to work best for novices, many of which were athletes. In fact part of his novice program is AMRAP chin-ups. He doesn't recommend AMRAP with the barbell exercises b/c nothing stops progress faster than an injury if form gets sloppy for a novice trying to eke out the last couple of reps.

Going from 2000 to 4000 cals per day would mean 14,000 extra per week. 3 workouts per week of 7 to 9 sets per workout (Starting Strength program) would not be even close to burning all those extra calories in the workouts themselves; it is not a high volume program.

 

[LiveLaughLove]

After having followed Pavel Tsatsouline and Ray Peat for decades, it is easy to see the philosophies intersect in many ways.

End of.

 

[Sapien]

And also it would be cool for someone relatively untrained and young(ish) to give Mentzer's program an honest try by eating (and sleeping) enough to fuel the growth because I did not. I'm assuming you're male also. Maybe all that doesn't apply to you and you are already a stud in the gym; if so disregard.

My friend and I (20, untrained) just started mentzers heavy duty (though we are putting our own spin on it by implementing “max contraction” principals (John little video) and the end of each set. (The reason for implementing max contraction is to make up for the lack of natilus equipment. Most/ if not all conventional exercises have limitations in their strength curves, often times at the point where the muscle requires the most resistance, the exercise provides literally 0. )

I will keep y’all posted on our progress! I already see gains from my first workout :)

 

[Sapien]

The reason I’m so interested in mentzer HIT is not only because I believe in the principals, but that it seems to me more “peaty” than most other programs. I was super impressed with mentzer quoting Hans Selye in one of his books. I also saw Ray mentioned overtraining as seratonin inducing in one of his seratonin articles.

 

[Sapien]

Weight, height and lifts?

165 5’11. I am eating above 3000 calories I’m not underfed, I just was giving an example that If your maintenance is 2000, 2500 should be sufficient.

 

[HighT]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHXjSgvo7dY

 

[Sitaruîm]

I'm gonna go back to the gym and will apply some of these principles. Will report the progress

This is my starting point: male in late 20s, about 77kg and 188cm tall. I've been kind of idle exercise-wise in the past year but I used to workout a fair amount in the past

 

[Peatress]

I listened to this again so I am reposting it because of recent discussions about exercise. Jodellefit, like Danny, always got the best out of Dr. Peat. It is one of my favourite Ray Peat interviews. Ray Peat lives!

Jodellefit high Cortisol Low Testosterone - Ray Peat​

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f50Lh82CM7c

 

[Inabruzzo]

The reason I’m so interested in mentzer HIT is not only because I believe in the principals, but that it seems to me more “peaty” than most other programs. I was super impressed with mentzer quoting Hans Selye in one of his books. I also saw Ray mentioned overtraining as seratonin inducing in one of his seratonin articles.

I’ve been lurking on on Mentzer youtube for weeks. I am totally interested in the HIT protocol. My only concern is, there “seems” to be a focus on the eccentric/negative in his work. Sorry if you’ve addressed that already. Ray has previously warned of seratonin problems with eccentric exercise (running, long biking, slow negatives weightlifting). I could be mistaken of course lol.

 

[Sapien]

I’ve been lurking on on Mentzer youtube for weeks. I am totally interested in the HIT protocol. My only concern is, there “seems” to be a focus on the eccentric/negative in his work. Sorry if you’ve addressed that already. Ray has previously warned of seratonin problems with eccentric exercise (running, long biking, slow negatives weightlifting). I could be mistaken of course lol.

You should look into doggcrapp training, the creator said that all the eccentrics Mentzer reccomends will lead to overtraining. its basically an updated form of HIT

 

[Inabruzzo]

You should look into doggcrapp training, the creator said that all the eccentrics Mentzer reccomends will lead to overtraining. its basically an updated form of HIT

I was just wondering if there was a modified HIT protocol. Thanks @Sapien !

 

[Sapien]

I was just wondering if there was a modified HIT protocol. Thanks @Sapien[/USE
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check out Drew Baye on youtube



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