InChristAlone
Member
Since there has been a lot of hype about choline lately, I thought I’d bring back some balance to the topic in talking about excessive acetylcholine. Having choline in the diet doesn’t necessarily cause too much acetylcholine but it is something to be aware of. I found this really interesting website talking about a genetic variant that causes low cholinesterase enzyme called butyrylcholinesterase which accounts for 10-20% of total cholinesterase activity. If acetylcholinesterase is inhibited, butyrylcholinesterase takes over its work. Having this variant can cause cholinesterase inhibitor sensitivity and sensitivity to many esters, chemicals and drugs. But this enzyme can go up and down depending on many things so I think we should all educate ourselves on acetylcholine!
BChE Mangel - mycholinesterase
“By inhibiting AChE, acetylcholine is not broken down, this means a change in the electrical potential and thus changes the permeability of the membranes to sodium and potassium ions. If acetylcholine cannot be broken down quickly, spasms occur and ultimately paralysis of the striated muscles, which can lead to paralysis of the respiratory muscles.”
“In the event of an inhibition, butyrylcholinesterase takes over the tasks of acetylcholinesterase and protects the body against toxins such as nerve gases, pesticides, insecticides, plant toxins, snake venoms, narcotics and much more“
Here are some of the esters it takes care of:
“Solanine is a toxic substance found in nightshades. It is a glycoalkaloid that inhibits cholinesterase (AChE and BChE) and is a potential cause of leaky gut due to its ability to poke holes in cell walls (membranes). Nightshade plants not only contain solanine, potatoes contain many other glycoalkaloids in addition to solanine and chaconine, and tomatoes contain tomatine.
Here is a small list of the most well-known nightshades:
-Tomatoes
-Potatoes
-Paprika
-Red Pepper (Capsicum)
-Chili (Capsaicin)
-Aubergines, aubergines
-Goji berries, Lycium barbarum, wolfberry, wolfberry
-Tomatillo
-Tamarillo
-Melon pear, pepino
-Tobacco
-Deadly Nightshade (Atropa, Belladonna)
-Ashwagandha, Indian ginseng (Withania somnifera)
-Datura (Datura)
-and much more
The name nightshade is attributed to the toxicity of the glycoalkaloids (solanaceous glycoalkaloids (SGAs) contained in the plants, as these lead to nightmares = nightshades.”
Nachtschatten - mycholinesterase
This explains why many have really weird side effects of ashwaganda! They could have this genetic defect and not even know it.
Here’s another website talking about it: Anne Wright - Cholinesterase Inhibitors
“We are constantly exposed to low levels of CIs through the food we eat -- both from the residue of CI pesticides and from the naturally occurring CIs present in the tissues of many vegetables and fruits. In susceptible individuals, normal levels of exposure in the diet can cause health and quality of life problems, though others eating the same diet notice no untoward effects.
I will use the term "Cholinesterase Inhibitor Sensitivity", or CIS for short, to designate those who suffer negative effects when exposed to CIs at levels found in their normal diet, but who would experience a relief of such symptoms if they were to follow a diet which sufficiently reduces their exposure. This term is inclusive of Nightshade Sensitivity since nightshade foods (potato, tomato, eggplant, peppers, and a few others) are the primary source of dietary CI exposure for most people.
The following is a list of symptoms which I have found to be caused or exacerbated by these effects:
Acetylcholine causes mast cells to degranulate releasing histamine.
Peat says this:
“In inescapable stress, the stress hormones rather than pushing higher and higher on the cortisol and adrenaline direction to excite things run the heart at a faster rate the body shifts when it sees inability to escape it can simply switch gears and turn off that system and turn on the acetylcholine cholinergic system and the confinement inescapable stress which is the extreme of isolation the extreme opposite from enriched environment this turns on the cholinergic dominant system which lowers blood sugar and in consequence lowering the blood sugar activates histamine release. Some of the acetylcholine nerves such as vagus nerve amplified they're influence by releasing histamine which is it's very similar in its effects to acetylcholine so you can think of this kind of inescapable stress as turning on the histamine type of cholinergic action. Andrew: so this is really a kind of death situation this would be going towards death and away from life"
View: https://youtu.be/lVtCaaRjllU
“yeah actually I think that tendency with aging is to have too much, the shock reaction is for over a hundred years now that there's been evidence that over activity of the vagus nerve and the parasympathetic nerve system produces shock that it's a the essential factor in shock and this is the system that acts primarily through acetylcholine producing nitric oxide nitric oxide blocks oxygen metabolism so in shock your blood stays red and full of oxygen the tissue can't use it and that happens with aging heart failure kidney failure dementia all the tissues relatively have a shock-like metabolism that progresses with aging do you think there's any medical benefit or interest in increasing the breakdown of acetylcholine yeah that there are lots of therapeutic uses of things that blocked the over activity of acetylcholine and accelerated its turnover a rich environment increases the enzyme that breaks down acetylcholine so the environmental enrichment then would encourage the breakdown of acetylcholine."
View: https://youtu.be/22For0bfQBQ
"The current and the last 20 years popular medical approach to treating Alzheimer's disease is to try to increase the level of production or persistence of acetylcholine by blocking the enzyme that breaks it down and they've demonstrated basically that it doesn't work and so they need a new fundamental theory but their theory is so mistaken it's hard for them to get off under this new line of drug treatment that's because the acetylcholine it's essential and part of our conscious regulating is needed for memory all kinds of biological processes required just the right amount of acetylcholine but it activates the enzyme that produces nitric oxide and nitric oxide blocks energy production and so the process of excitotoxicity which it made monosodium glutamate notorious because a little too much of that activates the production of a little too much acetylcholine and that makes too much nitric oxide nitric oxide poisons the ability to oxidize glucose to carbon dioxide so we get increases lactic acid and the cell has less energy and is more excited by the acetylcholine so basically as it becomes susceptible to dying in proportion to the overstimulation of acetylcholine."
View: https://youtu.be/WuUZCGsyBUo
So for anyone suffering from strange effects that you can’t pinpoint a direct cause you may want to try eliminating all nightshades, some even have to eliminate some other ones that could be cholinesterase inhibitors. I’m not usually one for elimination diets, but I do advocate for eliminating something that is causing harm. The only way to know is to try it and then add some back in and see how you react. Many find that they love the way they feel off nightshades. A stiff neck can be the first sign you got nightshaded.
I figured out that maybe nightshades were increasing my acetylcholine too much, and maybe even the choline from eggs as I started experiencing extreme anxiety after several months of 3 eggs a day, I can’t tell a direct correlation with dietary choline and many who are sensitive to cholinesterase inhibitors can consume eggs, but I have seen comments saying even dietary choline can cause the symptoms. During that period my dreams were becoming extremely annoyingly vivid. I felt like I couldn’t get enough rest. On cyproheptadine which is anticholinergic my stress is greatly reduced, as I believe my parasympathetic becomes overactive dropping my blood sugar and causing adrenaline responses.
BChE Mangel - mycholinesterase
“By inhibiting AChE, acetylcholine is not broken down, this means a change in the electrical potential and thus changes the permeability of the membranes to sodium and potassium ions. If acetylcholine cannot be broken down quickly, spasms occur and ultimately paralysis of the striated muscles, which can lead to paralysis of the respiratory muscles.”
“In the event of an inhibition, butyrylcholinesterase takes over the tasks of acetylcholinesterase and protects the body against toxins such as nerve gases, pesticides, insecticides, plant toxins, snake venoms, narcotics and much more“
Here are some of the esters it takes care of:
- -Fragrances
- -Flavorings in Food and Cosmetics
- -Fats (glycerol esters)
- -Cell membrane building blocks (phosphoric acid: ATP (needed by the cell to produce energy) and ADP – which are indispensable in the body for energy metabolism), lecithin
- -Aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid is an ester)
- -Dyes
- -Plastics, plasticizers for plastics, polyethylene terephthalate (PET) in beverage bottles, polyester fiber is the most produced synthetic fiber for cloth, polycarbonate
- -Detergents and cleaning agents
- -Solvents
- -Flame and corrosion retardant primers for painting metals
- -Chemical warfare agents (phosphoric acid esters such as sarin or tabun)
- -Explosives (Nitroglycerin, Dynamite)
- -Vitamin D as a dietary supplement - is commonly made from wool wax (lanolin), which is a mixture of predominantly long-chain ester, diester, and hydroxy-ester.
- -Food cholinesterase inhibitors such as solanine, chaconine, piperidines , huperzine A , quercentin, morroniside, polyphenols – flavonoids (fisetin, galangin, luteolin, apigenin)
- -Carbamates (insecticides)
- -Organophosphates (pesticides, nerve gas)
- -Medicines for poisoning by organophosphates , for epilepsy, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, muscle relaxants such as succinylcholine and mivacurium, cocaine
- -Tiredness, general malaise after anesthesia
- -Allergic reactions up to shortness of breath (anaphylaxis)
- -Food intolerances , especially potatoes, peppers, tomatoes and the like
- -Neurological symptoms such as nerve paralysis, tingling and burning, muscle weakness, tremors, spasms, and more
- -Stiff neck
- -Risk of Parkinson's after exposure to organophosphates
“Solanine is a toxic substance found in nightshades. It is a glycoalkaloid that inhibits cholinesterase (AChE and BChE) and is a potential cause of leaky gut due to its ability to poke holes in cell walls (membranes). Nightshade plants not only contain solanine, potatoes contain many other glycoalkaloids in addition to solanine and chaconine, and tomatoes contain tomatine.
Here is a small list of the most well-known nightshades:
-Tomatoes
-Potatoes
-Paprika
-Red Pepper (Capsicum)
-Chili (Capsaicin)
-Aubergines, aubergines
-Goji berries, Lycium barbarum, wolfberry, wolfberry
-Tomatillo
-Tamarillo
-Melon pear, pepino
-Tobacco
-Deadly Nightshade (Atropa, Belladonna)
-Ashwagandha, Indian ginseng (Withania somnifera)
-Datura (Datura)
-and much more
The name nightshade is attributed to the toxicity of the glycoalkaloids (solanaceous glycoalkaloids (SGAs) contained in the plants, as these lead to nightmares = nightshades.”
Nachtschatten - mycholinesterase
This explains why many have really weird side effects of ashwaganda! They could have this genetic defect and not even know it.
Here’s another website talking about it: Anne Wright - Cholinesterase Inhibitors
“We are constantly exposed to low levels of CIs through the food we eat -- both from the residue of CI pesticides and from the naturally occurring CIs present in the tissues of many vegetables and fruits. In susceptible individuals, normal levels of exposure in the diet can cause health and quality of life problems, though others eating the same diet notice no untoward effects.
I will use the term "Cholinesterase Inhibitor Sensitivity", or CIS for short, to designate those who suffer negative effects when exposed to CIs at levels found in their normal diet, but who would experience a relief of such symptoms if they were to follow a diet which sufficiently reduces their exposure. This term is inclusive of Nightshade Sensitivity since nightshade foods (potato, tomato, eggplant, peppers, and a few others) are the primary source of dietary CI exposure for most people.
The following is a list of symptoms which I have found to be caused or exacerbated by these effects:
- Voluntary muscle problems: can cause a range of problems including excess muscle tension, decreased agility, muscle cramps, tremors, spasms, muscle weakness, and increased formation of trigger points (positive feedback loops where muscles continue to stay contracted until released by an outside force, such as massage).
- Involuntary muscle problems: disrupts proper peristalsis in the GI tract leading to motility problems (such as diarrhea), intestinal spasms, and abdominal pain. This can also lead to problems with nutrient absorption and proper maintenance of gut flora due to food not spending the appropriate amount of time at each stage of the GI tract. This may be diagnosed as "irritable bowel syndrome" (IBS), a functional syndrome which covers these types of GI symptoms without reference to the cause. Interestingly, medications prescribed for treating the intestinal spasms and abdominal pain of IBS, such as dicyclomine, work by decreasing the sensitivity of muscarinic acetylcholine receptors.
- Excessive stress response: increases release of stress chemicals (epinephrine/adrenaline, etc.) and sympathetic nervous system (fight or flight) activation in respose to a given stimulus. This makes life events seem more threatening and harder to cope with. It may also exacerbate problems of addiction: drugs of addiction mostly increase dopamine, which provides short-term relief from these effects.
- Sleep problems: increases awareness during sleep and vividness of dreams; decreases soundness of sleep. This means that you're more likely to know if anything happens while you're asleep, but less likely to wake up refreshed in the morning. There is even a product containing the CI galanthamine which aims to exploit this effect to cause more vivid dreams. Their claims about the neurochemical mechanisms seem correct. However, they don't mention the down side: less refreshing sleep.
- Mood/psychiatric problems: increases anxiety (see Excessive stress response above and ref [15]). I believe that sufficiently high ACh/DA ratio can cause many of the same physiological effects seen in depression (irritability, tension, loss of energy, changes in appetite, changes in sleep pattern, etc.). I speculate that the combination of those effects with negative beliefs about their meaning and impact on personal worth can indeed lead to depression. (It's a question of semantics whether those physiological effects in the absence of such beliefs and low mood should be called depression or not. I would say not. I'm not sure anyone else would agree.)
- Inflammation/arthritis: Sources which address Nightshade Sensitivity mainly focus on arthritis, pain, and inflammation. It is not clear to me the extent to which those effects are directly caused by cholinesterase inhibition versus other properties of nightshade toxicity. However, many people have found that these effects go away when nightshades are eliminated from their diet, and recur if they are reintroduced. Dr. Norman Childers in particular includes many letters describing such experiences in his book, Arthritis-- Childer's Diet That Stops it. Gloria Gilbère and Michael Fowler have also written books describing similar experiences. This indicates to me that arthritis, pain, and inflammation should also be considered as potential effects of CIS even if the mechanisms are less clear.
- Metabolic instability?: I have found that a sufficiently high ACh/DA ratio can cause effects consistent with low metabolism: slow movement, feeling cold, not feeling hungry, not losing weight despite decreased food consumption. At intermediate levels, it causes the opposite effect: fast movement, feeling warm, increased appetite, not gaining weight despite increased food consumption. These changes seem to happen randomly. I call the former "slow mode" and the latter "fast mode." They look like either moving in and out of depression, bipolar disorder, or changes in thyroid function (depending on the proclivities of the viewer).“
Acetylcholine causes mast cells to degranulate releasing histamine.
Peat says this:
“In inescapable stress, the stress hormones rather than pushing higher and higher on the cortisol and adrenaline direction to excite things run the heart at a faster rate the body shifts when it sees inability to escape it can simply switch gears and turn off that system and turn on the acetylcholine cholinergic system and the confinement inescapable stress which is the extreme of isolation the extreme opposite from enriched environment this turns on the cholinergic dominant system which lowers blood sugar and in consequence lowering the blood sugar activates histamine release. Some of the acetylcholine nerves such as vagus nerve amplified they're influence by releasing histamine which is it's very similar in its effects to acetylcholine so you can think of this kind of inescapable stress as turning on the histamine type of cholinergic action. Andrew: so this is really a kind of death situation this would be going towards death and away from life"
View: https://youtu.be/lVtCaaRjllU
“yeah actually I think that tendency with aging is to have too much, the shock reaction is for over a hundred years now that there's been evidence that over activity of the vagus nerve and the parasympathetic nerve system produces shock that it's a the essential factor in shock and this is the system that acts primarily through acetylcholine producing nitric oxide nitric oxide blocks oxygen metabolism so in shock your blood stays red and full of oxygen the tissue can't use it and that happens with aging heart failure kidney failure dementia all the tissues relatively have a shock-like metabolism that progresses with aging do you think there's any medical benefit or interest in increasing the breakdown of acetylcholine yeah that there are lots of therapeutic uses of things that blocked the over activity of acetylcholine and accelerated its turnover a rich environment increases the enzyme that breaks down acetylcholine so the environmental enrichment then would encourage the breakdown of acetylcholine."
View: https://youtu.be/22For0bfQBQ
"The current and the last 20 years popular medical approach to treating Alzheimer's disease is to try to increase the level of production or persistence of acetylcholine by blocking the enzyme that breaks it down and they've demonstrated basically that it doesn't work and so they need a new fundamental theory but their theory is so mistaken it's hard for them to get off under this new line of drug treatment that's because the acetylcholine it's essential and part of our conscious regulating is needed for memory all kinds of biological processes required just the right amount of acetylcholine but it activates the enzyme that produces nitric oxide and nitric oxide blocks energy production and so the process of excitotoxicity which it made monosodium glutamate notorious because a little too much of that activates the production of a little too much acetylcholine and that makes too much nitric oxide nitric oxide poisons the ability to oxidize glucose to carbon dioxide so we get increases lactic acid and the cell has less energy and is more excited by the acetylcholine so basically as it becomes susceptible to dying in proportion to the overstimulation of acetylcholine."
View: https://youtu.be/WuUZCGsyBUo
So for anyone suffering from strange effects that you can’t pinpoint a direct cause you may want to try eliminating all nightshades, some even have to eliminate some other ones that could be cholinesterase inhibitors. I’m not usually one for elimination diets, but I do advocate for eliminating something that is causing harm. The only way to know is to try it and then add some back in and see how you react. Many find that they love the way they feel off nightshades. A stiff neck can be the first sign you got nightshaded.
I figured out that maybe nightshades were increasing my acetylcholine too much, and maybe even the choline from eggs as I started experiencing extreme anxiety after several months of 3 eggs a day, I can’t tell a direct correlation with dietary choline and many who are sensitive to cholinesterase inhibitors can consume eggs, but I have seen comments saying even dietary choline can cause the symptoms. During that period my dreams were becoming extremely annoyingly vivid. I felt like I couldn’t get enough rest. On cyproheptadine which is anticholinergic my stress is greatly reduced, as I believe my parasympathetic becomes overactive dropping my blood sugar and causing adrenaline responses.