Biogenetic vs Low Carb Paleo - Georgi Dinkov & Tucker Goodrich

[Mito]

“Georgi Dinkov and Tucker Goodrich join David Gornoski for a fascinating conversation on seed oil damage to health, whether iron is toxic, whether keto interventions are necessary, the best way to rid ourselves of excess PUFA, whether we should eat gelatin with or without meat, whether lower height is a sign of malnourishment, what the plains Indians taught us about fasting, the possibility of fusing the two solutions, and more.”


View: https://davidgornoski.libsyn.com/georgi-dinkov-tucker-goodrich-on-pufa-obesity-ray-peats-bioenergetic-paradigm-vs-ketogenic-paleo-solutions

 

[Lollipop2]

Interesting. For my free weekend ahead

 

[tankasnowgod]

whether iron is toxic,

Oh, high iron is most definitely toxic. There's really not any doubt about that. As few as ten supplemental iron pills can kill an infant if ingested, and high iron can pose many longer term problems in adults.

I thought Tucker was too dismissive of iron in the interview, thinking it was only a problem for those with the "genetic predisposition" to load iron. Of course, even if that's true, most people don't test themselves for such genes, nor are all the genes for such a condition even thought to be known. Which could still make it a problem for many people, and potentially anyone.

I don't know what studies he was referring to, but just citing an example of more primitive/less industrialized people like the Bantu eating more iron isn't enough to discount the dangers of higher iron. Intestinal worms are an issue in all societies that are less industrialized, and weren't even really eliminated from more industrialized societies until around the 1960s. It's quite possible the Bantu eat many times the iron than the average American does, and still has less of a bodily iron burden. Just like CICO, there's iron in, and iron out. Intestinal worms greatly increase the iron out side of the equation, and did for pretty much all humans for centuries. Which would have kept body iron stores much lower than those of us living in modern society. And even with nearly omnipresent intestinal worms, bloodletting was still the go to medical treatment for most of those centuries as well.

 

[Mito]

“…I can go and do a 15 mile run with no food and no water on a hot day and it’s not even a problem, right, and I don’t even get hungry at the end. And that was one of the most interesting things that happened because I was doing endurance exercise the whole time I was fixing my diet and when I started out I would go for a run and I would come back and I would be like I mean I bonked at 10 miles in a half marathon, so typically a bonk is at 20 miles in a marathon right if you do the math, that’s when you run through your stored glycogen, I bonked at 10 miles in a half marathon, I saw stars, I was dizzy, I had to stop running, that’s how messed up my metabolism was right? I knew that I had fixed my metabolism when I was able to go out and do a long run on no food and get back and I wasn’t even hungry, I forgot to eat for a few hours and that was my fastest half marathon time I ever done.” - Tucker Goodrich

 

[Jam]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsWOXgnk5Ko

 

[SamYo123]

“…I can go and do a 15 mile run with no food and no water on a hot day and it’s not even a problem, right, and I don’t even get hungry at the end. And that was one of the most interesting things that happened because I was doing endurance exercise the whole time I was fixing my diet and when I started out I would go for a run and I would come back and I would be like I mean I bonked at 10 miles in a half marathon, so typically a bonk is at 20 miles in a marathon right if you do the math, that’s when you run through your stored glycogen, I bonked at 10 miles in a half marathon, I saw stars, I was dizzy, I had to stop running, that’s how messed up my metabolism was right? I knew that I had fixed my metabolism when I was able to go out and do a long run on no food and get back and I wasn’t even hungry, I forgot to eat for a few hours and that was my fastest half marathon time I ever done.” - Tucker Goodrich

so stress metabolism vs thyroid metabolism comes full circle

 

[schmolch]

“…I can go and do a 15 mile run with no food and no water on a hot day and it’s not even a problem, right, and I don’t even get hungry at the end. And that was one of the most interesting things that happened because I was doing endurance exercise the whole time I was fixing my diet and when I started out I would go for a run and I would come back and I would be like I mean I bonked at 10 miles in a half marathon, so typically a bonk is at 20 miles in a marathon right if you do the math, that’s when you run through your stored glycogen, I bonked at 10 miles in a half marathon, I saw stars, I was dizzy, I had to stop running, that’s how messed up my metabolism was right? I knew that I had fixed my metabolism when I was able to go out and do a long run on no food and get back and I wasn’t even hungry, I forgot to eat for a few hours and that was my fastest half marathon time I ever done.” - Tucker Goodrich

This is very dishonest.
What he describes is simply the difference between a newbie runner and somebody more experienced (1-2 years imho).

 

[Mito]

This is very dishonest.
What he describes is simply the difference between a newbie runner and somebody more experienced (1-2 years imho).

And the difference between a metabolism that is adapted for beta oxidation vs glucose oxidation. Tucker thinks beta oxidation is preferable vs glucose oxidation based on typical low carb paleo thinking that humans adapted to use fat as the optimal fuel for optimal health. Tucker did concede that glucose oxidation is fine if dietary and body storage PUFA levels are low.

Later Tucker acknowledges that a good amount of carbohydrates can be part of a good diet. ”…the question then becomes, what’s the level of carbohydrate that you can eat and still have a healthy diet? And the answer is pretty high, it’s like 20 to 30%….”

 

[Sefton10]

I got the impression Georgi could have destroyed this guy, but he was courteous and let him have his say. It's obvious he has a much better grasp of the mechanisms at play.

 

[yerrag]

ater Tucker acknowledges that a good amount of carbohydrates can be part of a good diet. ”…the question then becomes, what’s the level of carbohydrate that you can eat and still have a healthy diet? And the answer is pretty high, it’s like 20 to 30%….”

Not high enough.

 

[youngsinatra]

I think the show‘s information is valuable, but I think the moderator did a poor job at structuring the debate.

I think both should had a uninterrupted timespan at the start to properly present their standpoint on the matter (while the other is able to take notes and make a thoughtful rebuttal afterwards)

Tucker was very overpowering in this one. Georgi did not have the chance to throughoutly explain things without a steady interruption.

I am personally very interested in this topic because I eat a lot more (predominantly saturated fat + olive oil) lately and cut most of the carbs out, except vegetables I like and feeling very good on this.

Still having some iron-chelating compounds (like coffee) with beef and enough calcium to satisfy the calcium:phosphate ratio. (which seems way easier to achieve on LCHF?)

I honestly feel way less stressed this way, much more centered and my mood is just stable throughout the day and I don‘t have any hypoglycemic dips, which is great too.

 

[RealNeat]

I got the impression Georgi could have destroyed this guy, but he was courteous and let him have his say. It's obvious he has a much better grasp of the mechanisms at play.

Yes exactly. It was actually very frustrating to watch imo, Tucker constantly interrupts, laughs sarcastically, uses evidence where he sees fit (but discounts Georgis), anecdotes where he sees fit (but discounts Georgis) and appeal to biased "ancestral health" but won't let Georgi finish a thought to fruition. There was no talk about the byproducts of glucose oxidation (like Co2) vs fat oxidation and how it resembles Warburg metabolism (Cancer), which is... terrible.

Tucker is also a master at moving goalposts: discounts Georgi, interrupts, then Georgi gets a second to explain the evidence, then Tucker gets called out and he starts off on a different tangent covering up the original point of the topic.

The only thing I want to look into is the toxicity study in rodents that he talked about where the ones who had PUFA + Carb together did worse than carb + diabetes causing poison. However, Ray does not advocate FFA and Glucose in the bloodstream at the same time so it's not even that relevant. There should have been talk about Randle cycle.

I laughed so hard when Tucker couldnt fathom PUFA being detoxed and peed out. Then calls urinating fats pathological... So is peeing out other toxins pathological too? Want to just keep all that in?

Then Georgi talks about FFA in the bloodstream potentially causing ketoacidosis and other metabolic problems in excess but Tucker once again jumps the gun, interrupts Georgi (trying to make himself look superior and intelligent) says "no no no" followed by some silly obvious stuff about insulin. Then Georgi finally gets the opportunity to finish his response and Tucker gets put in his place and finishes with some useless anecdote about "millions of people are on Keto and fine too much of anything is bad.."

Pretty much the theme of the whole interview.

 

[yerrag]

Yes exactly. It was actually very frustrating to watch imo, Tucker constantly interrupts, laughs sarcastically, uses evidence where he sees fit (but discounts Georgis), anecdotes where he sees fit (but discounts Georgis) and appeal to biased "ancestral health" but won't let Georgi finish a thought to fruition. There was no talk about the byproducts of glucose oxidation (like Co2) vs fat oxidation and how it resembles Warburg metabolism (Cancer), which is... terrible.

Tucker is also a master at moving goalposts: discounts Georgi, interrupts, then Georgi gets a second to explain the evidence, then Tucker gets called out and he starts off on a different tangent covering up the original point of the topic.

The only thing I want to look into is the toxicity study in rodents that he talked about where the ones who had PUFA + Carb together did worse than carb + diabetes causing poison. However, Ray does not advocate FFA and Glucose in the bloodstream at the same time so it's not even that relevant. There should have been talk about Randle cycle.

I laughed so hard when Tucker couldnt fathom PUFA being detoxed and peed out. Then calls urinating fats pathological... So is peeing out other toxins pathological too? Want to just keep all that in?

Then Georgi talks about FFA in the bloodstream potentially causing ketoacidosis and other metabolic problems in excess but Tucker once again jumps the gun, interrupts Georgi (trying to make himself look superior and intelligent) says "no no no" followed by some silly obvious stuff about insulin. Then Georgi finally gets the opportunity to finish his response and Tucker gets put in his place and finishes with some useless anecdote about "millions of people are on Keto and fine too much of anything is bad.."

Pretty much the theme of the whole interview.

Georgi is always going to lose in such debates even if he were right. And he is right of course.

Even if you get a good debate moderator on.

Who wins is in the collective minds of the audience. And an audience steeped on following the simplest explanation and on catching the low-level drug dealer than the drug lord is never going to connect the dots as it is too blind to see even one dot, much less to connect one to another.

The same audience always in search on a silver bullet. Fact-gathering and mindful observations and deductive reasoning makes them fall asleep. They rather enter into a trance state to heal guided by a maharishi yogi for everything to them will just fall into place- mind over matter- another silver bullet.

The object in such a debate is never to win but to just save a few souls from earthly damnation in reductive stress hell. For to win is to lead a mass of lemmings as their pied piper.

That's why there are apostles. And there are disciples. And that's why the prophet gets crucified.

 

[RealNeat]

Georgi is always going to lose in such debates even if he were right. And he is right of course.

Even if you get a good debate moderator on.

Who wins is in the collective minds of the audience. And an audience steeped on following the simplest explanation and on catching the low-level drug dealer than the drug lord is never going to connect the dots as it is too blind to see even one dot, much less to connect one to another.

The same audience always in search on a silver bullet. Fact-gathering and mindful observations and deductive reasoning makes them fall asleep. They rather enter into a trance state to heal guided by a maharishi yogi for everything to them will just fall into place- mind over matter- another silver bullet.

The object in such a debate is never to win but to just save a few souls from earthly damnation in reductive stress hell. For to win is to lead a mass of lemmings as their pied piper.

That's why there are apostles. And there are disciples. And that's why the prophet gets crucified.

Makes sense, it's usually the case. I did listen to one with Tucker and Peat (neighbors choice radio) and Tucker actually seemed less intrusive and more receptive. I wonder what changed a year later... he found two studies to "refute" Peat? Lol

 

[Regina]

Yes exactly. It was actually very frustrating to watch imo, Tucker constantly interrupts, laughs sarcastically, uses evidence where he sees fit (but discounts Georgis), anecdotes where he sees fit (but discounts Georgis) and appeal to biased "ancestral health" but won't let Georgi finish a thought to fruition. There was no talk about the byproducts of glucose oxidation (like Co2) vs fat oxidation and how it resembles Warburg metabolism (Cancer), which is... terrible.

Tucker is also a master at moving goalposts: discounts Georgi, interrupts, then Georgi gets a second to explain the evidence, then Tucker gets called out and he starts off on a different tangent covering up the original point of the topic.

The only thing I want to look into is the toxicity study in rodents that he talked about where the ones who had PUFA + Carb together did worse than carb + diabetes causing poison. However, Ray does not advocate FFA and Glucose in the bloodstream at the same time so it's not even that relevant. There should have been talk about Randle cycle.

I laughed so hard when Tucker couldnt fathom PUFA being detoxed and peed out. Then calls urinating fats pathological... So is peeing out other toxins pathological too? Want to just keep all that in?

Then Georgi talks about FFA in the bloodstream potentially causing ketoacidosis and other metabolic problems in excess but Tucker once again jumps the gun, interrupts Georgi (trying to make himself look superior and intelligent) says "no no no" followed by some silly obvious stuff about insulin. Then Georgi finally gets the opportunity to finish his response and Tucker gets put in his place and finishes with some useless anecdote about "millions of people are on Keto and fine too much of anything is bad.."

Pretty much the theme of the whole interview.

That's "Ghee-yur-ghee". lol

 

[Orome]

I had to stop listening after the first half because I could not stand Tucker Goodrich any longer. This guy is running on stress hormones. I could hear it in his voice. Not letting Georgi finishing two sentences in a row without interrupting + the feeling that he cannot stand a different opinion, even if it's backed by evidence and presented objectively, makes me think that he is running on high cortisol, serotonin and others (I know a lot of people who behave like him).
And other than some anecdotes he brought absolutely nothing to the table. "Out of millions of people who followed the Atkins diet only a dozen experienced issues". Yes, sure.
Also agreed that Georgi could have obliterated him if he had really wanted. But instead he was very nice & humble: the Ray Peat style .

 

[Regina]

I had to stop listening after the first half because I could not stand Tucker Goodrich any longer. This guy is running on stress hormones. I could hear it in his voice. Not letting Georgi finishing two sentences in a row without interrupting + the feeling that he cannot stand a different opinion, even if it's backed by evidence and presented objectively, makes me think that he is running on high cortisol, serotonin and others (I know a lot of people who behave like him).
And other than some anecdotes he brought absolutely nothing to the table. "Out of millions of people who followed the Atkins diet only a dozen experienced issues". Yes, sure.
Also agreed that Georgi could have obliterated him if he had really wanted. But instead he was very nice & humble: the Ray Peat style .

I also found irritating Tucker's frequent looking up left or right as if to make eye contact with an imaginary friend who emboldens him.

 

[yerrag]

Makes sense, it's usually the case. I did listen to one with Tucker and Peat (neighbors choice radio) and Tucker actually seemed less intrusive and more receptive. I wonder what changed a year later... he found two studies to "refute" Peat? Lol

He was likely feeling like Ukraine against Pete's depth in his arsenal. Hard to mess with a superpower.

 

[Sefton10]

 

[Orome]

View attachment 44071

Hahaha..the low carb lifestyle takes his tolls again. Actually I can confirm this phenomenon. Before I heard of Ray Peat I had lots of problems with calluses on my feet. I had an electrical callus remover which I used every few days in addition to rubbing oil on it every evening before bed - all with no avail whatsoever.
Today there is nearly no callus at all and in general the skin on my feet is very soft - something which I only recently discovered to my delight .