The Warburg "effect" Is, In Fact, A Direct Cause Of Cancer

[Obi-wan]

I now agree with @haidut. Succinate acid is the way to go and am having good results with Cardenosine (ideaLab product). Stopped ACV/BS just doing baking soda. Haidut mentioned it increased succinate dehydrogenase. Also high Taurine with coffee for cellular integrity...

 

[Inaut]

I now agree with @haidut. Succinate acid is the way to go and am having good results with Cardenosine (ideaLab product). Stopped ACV/BS just doing baking soda. Haidut mentioned it increased succinate dehydrogenase. Also high Taurine with coffee for cellular integrity...

I need to buy succinic acid now.....Thanks Obi :)

Um... anybody bought tablets from Ebay? Really cheap but I'm not sure about quality as they are produced in Russia and I cant read label

 

[Obi-wan]

I need to buy succinic acid now.....Thanks Obi :)

Um... anybody bought tablets from Ebay? Really cheap but I'm not sure about quality as they are produced in Russia and I cant read label

Why not just buy Cardenosine from IdeaLabs?

 

[Inaut]

mainly cost. times are tough right now sadly....(although i'm confident cardenosine is well worth it in terms of quality and effect) but 10 bucks gets me 100 tabs. Ingredients are: Succinic Acid 100mg (20%), Glucose, Calcium Stearate and it has a been lab tested ...in Russian language :s

 

[haidut]

I now agree with @haidut. Succinate acid is the way to go and am having good results with Cardenosine (ideaLab product). Stopped ACV/BS just doing baking soda. Haidut mentioned it increased succinate dehydrogenase. Also high Taurine with coffee for cellular integrity...

Glad to hear succinic acid works well. Btw, combined with methylene blue it works even better as it provides an electron acceptor for the succinic acid and that speeds up its conversion into ATP even more.

 

[Inaut]

Fascinating stuff. Thanks @haidut. Looking forward to testing it out :)

Any thoughts on this? Using red light in conjunction?

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.res...YNAMIC_THERAPY_ON_AGS_AND_HGC27_CELL_LINE/amp

 

[Mito]

This is yet another recent study showing that medicine may finally be getting on the right track. Similar to the human study with doxycycline and breast cancer I just posted, confirms again what has been known and fraudulently suppressed for almost a century. Namely, the Warburg "effect" is as much of an effect as it is actually a direct cause of cancer initiation and development. A highly controversial study with similar findings caused a lot of controversy on Reddit. However, it was completely ignored by mainstream media and the only outlet that gave it some publicity (NYT) only did do to expose the purported dangers of sugar given cancer's "addiction" to it.
The Warburg Effect drives oncogenesis: researchers at Lawrence Berkeley National Lab and in Japan show cancer really does have a sweet tooth : science

What is your understanding of the degree of mitochondrial function in cancer cells (or even cells moving in the direction of cancer)? Is there still some degree of mitochondrial ATP production via the TCA cycle and some of the ECT complexes in the tumor cells? This review paper argues against the idea of a “switch” that just turns ON glycolysis and OFF oxidative phosphorylation claiming that there is still some mitochondrial ATP production which gives the cancer cells the energy needed to grow.

Fundamentals of cancer metabolism

 

[haidut]

What is your understanding of the degree of mitochondrial function in cancer cells (or even cells moving in the direction of cancer)? Is there still some degree of mitochondrial ATP production via the TCA cycle and some of the ECT complexes in the tumor cells? This review paper argues against the idea of a “switch” that just turns ON glycolysis and OFF oxidative phosphorylation claiming that there is still some mitochondrial ATP production which gives the cancer cells the energy needed to grow.
View attachment 11509
Fundamentals of cancer metabolism

Sure, there is still some mitochondrial function but not enough to ensure cellular differentiation and stop growth/division. The PDH enzyme is not entirely blocked but is greatly downregulated. Same for cytochrome C oxidase.

 

[haidut]

Glad to hear succinic acid works well. Btw, combined with methylene blue it works even better as it provides an electron acceptor for the succinic acid and that speeds up its conversion into ATP even more.

Sure, in combination it would probably be even more effective. So, succinic acid + MB + red light could be a very simple and powerful anti-cancer treatment.

 

[Kartoffel]

Sure, there is still some mitochondrial function but not enough to ensure cellular differentiation and stop growth/division. The PDH enzyme is not entirely blocked but is greatly downregulated. Same for cytochrome C oxidase.

Is that really the case? It seems that at least some tumors increase OxPhos almost as much as glycolysis to get their energy substrates.

"Thus, human NSCLC tumors display enhanced carbon flow through PDH and the TCA cycle compared to adjacent lung."

Cell. 2016 Feb 11;164(4):681-94. doi: 10.1016/j.cell.2015.12.034. Epub 2016 Feb 4.
Metabolic Heterogeneity in Human Lung Tumors.
Hensley CT1, Faubert B1, Yuan Q2, Lev-Cohain N3, Jin E4, Kim J1, Jiang L1, Ko B1, Skelton R5, Loudat L5, Wodzak M6, Klimko C1, McMillan E7, Butt Y8, Ni M1, Oliver D8, Torrealba J8, Malloy CR9, Kernstine K10, Lenkinski RE11, DeBerardinis RJ12.​

 

[haidut]

Is that really the case? It seems that at least some tumors increase OxPhos almost as much as glycolysis to get their energy substrates.

"Thus, human NSCLC tumors display enhanced carbon flow through PDH and the TCA cycle compared to adjacent lung."
View attachment 11579

Cell. 2016 Feb 11;164(4):681-94. doi: 10.1016/j.cell.2015.12.034. Epub 2016 Feb 4.
Metabolic Heterogeneity in Human Lung Tumors.
Hensley CT1, Faubert B1, Yuan Q2, Lev-Cohain N3, Jin E4, Kim J1, Jiang L1, Ko B1, Skelton R5, Loudat L5, Wodzak M6, Klimko C1, McMillan E7, Butt Y8, Ni M1, Oliver D8, Torrealba J8, Malloy CR9, Kernstine K10, Lenkinski RE11, DeBerardinis RJ12.​

Given that the Warburg effects has been shown to be present so far in every cancer then something does not add up. That lactic acid must be coming from somewhere and if OXPHOS was working so well there won't be much of a Warburg effect.

 

[Wagner83]

Given that the Warburg effects has been shown to be present so far in every cancer then something does not add up. That lactic acid must be coming from somewhere and if OXPHOS was working so well there won't be much of a Warburg effect.

What about fructose being easily converted to lactate?

 

[haidut]

What about fructose being easily converted to lactate?

I don't think fructose is more easily converted to lactate than glucose. Also, unlike glucose, fructose increases PDH activity and should keep lactate lower than other forms of sugar except possibly trehalose. Sucrose and trehalose are non-reducing sugars and as such are preferable to isolated sugars like glucose, fructose, lactose, etc as the former do not shift the redox balance in favor of reduction.

 

[Mito]

Given that the Warburg effects has been shown to be present so far in every cancer then something does not add up. That lactic acid must be coming from somewhere and if OXPHOS was working so well there won't be much of a Warburg effect.

Dr. Thomas Seyfried proposes that OxPhos is not working well in the mitochondria of cancer cells. He claims that most of the ATP production comes from substrate level phosphorylation (TCA cycle) and the ETC is producing a very small percentage of the total ATP produced in the mitochondria of cancer cells.

 

[nikkmm]

Cornell just finished a “trailblazing” study on the Warburg effect a few weeks ago:

Cancer’s metabolism subject of trailblazing study | Cornell Chronicle

Link to study, published December 7: Multi-scale computational study of the Warburg effect, reverse Warburg effect and glutamine addiction in solid tumors

I don’t quite understand what conclusions they drew, other than I think glutamine addiction not being relevant to cancer metabolism. I believe they’re in the camp that advocates for starving the body of glucose in order to starve the cancer.

 

[Kartoffel]

Cornell just finished a “trailblazing” study on the Warburg effect a few weeks ago:

Cancer’s metabolism subject of trailblazing study | Cornell Chronicle

Link to study, published December 7: Multi-scale computational study of the Warburg effect, reverse Warburg effect and glutamine addiction in solid tumors

I don’t quite understand what conclusions they drew, other than I think glutamine addiction not being relevant to cancer metabolism. I believe they’re in the camp that advocates for starving the body of glucose in order to starve the cancer.

"Study"

 

[jondoeuk]

"Study"

What??

 

[jondoeuk]

Cornell just finished a “trailblazing” study on the Warburg effect a few weeks ago:

Cancer’s metabolism subject of trailblazing study | Cornell Chronicle

Link to study, published December 7: Multi-scale computational study of the Warburg effect, reverse Warburg effect and glutamine addiction in solid tumors

I don’t quite understand what conclusions they drew, other than I think glutamine addiction not being relevant to cancer metabolism. I believe they’re in the camp that advocates for starving the body of glucose in order to starve the cancer.

Different amino acids will need to be targeted Glutamine targeting inhibits systemic metastasis in the VM-M3 murine tumor model Modulating the therapeutic response of tumours to dietary serine and glycine starvation Asparagine bioavailability governs metastasis in a model of breast cancer

 

[Kartoffel]

Different amino acids will need to be targeted Glutamine targeting inhibits systemic metastasis in the VM-M3 murine tumor model Modulating the therapeutic response of tumours to dietary serine and glycine starvation Asparagine bioavailability governs metastasis in a model of breast cancer

The abstract says they did "multi-scale simulations". That sounds worse than useless - playing a computer game isn't a study of of a living organism.

 

[haidut]

Dr. Thomas Seyfried proposes that OxPhos is not working well in the mitochondria of cancer cells. He claims that most of the ATP production comes from substrate level phosphorylation (TCA cycle) and the ETC is producing a very small percentage of the total ATP produced in the mitochondria of cancer cells.
View attachment 11605
View attachment 11606

Thanks, was not aware of his work. Complex I and IV have been shown to be blocked in cancers, and methylene blue can help in both cases.