Scalp Progesterone For Hair Loss Experiment

[General Orange]

Right, no worries.

But, the thing about clomid about potentially good for hair loss, may just be related to the fact that it IS estrogenic (rather than controlling estrogen).

Estrogen (estradiol) is good for hair.

I think E2 is only good for hair growth if you can somehow determine that you hairloss is from having high estrone that then can need modulating by E2. coz E2 can inhibit hair growth also. talking about it topically of course

 

[Elephanto]

Low plasma zinc levels in androgenetic alopecia Aiempanakit K, Jandee S, Chiratikarnwong K, Chuaprapaisilp T, Auepemkiate S - Indian J Dermatol Venereol Leprol

Analysis of Serum Zinc and Copper Concentrations in Hair Loss

Zinc (significantly lower in balding men) increases SHBG (low in balding men), Testosterone (low in balding men), Dopamine. Decreases Prolactin (slightly higher in balding men), Cortisol, Aromatase/Estrogen. Zinc is also a natural calcium receptor antagonist (decalcifying agent), an anti-bacterial agent and an intestinal integrity protector.


In these two studies, they find High Estrogen and Cortisol in balding men :
Hormonal basis of male and female androgenic alopecia: clinical relevance. - PubMed - NCBI

The mainly peripheral activity of this hormone and elevated E2 levels in males stress the importance of androgen metabolism especially at the peripheral level.

Hormonal parameters in androgenetic hair loss in the male. - PubMed - NCBI

Significant differences in serum levels of androstenedione, cortisol, 17 beta-estradiol and luteinizing hormone were noted between hair loss patients and control subjects.

Chronic stress/cortisol elevates DHT.
Effects of environmental stress on mRNA and protein expression levels of steroid 5alpha-Reductase isozymes in adult rat brain. - PubMed - NCBI

DHEA-S is high in balding men.
Serum elevation of dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate associated with male pattern baldness in young men. - PubMed - NCBI

DHEA-S is a marker of stress.
Acute and chronic stress increase DHEAS concentrations in rhesus monkeys

Stress elevates Estrogen.
Stress Elevates Estrogen, Not Just Cortisol

Cortisol induces Aromatase.
Cortisol induces aromatase expression in human placental syncytiotrophoblasts through the cAMP/Sp1 pathway. - PubMed - NCBI

Endotoxins induce Cortisol.
Lipopolysaccharide directly stimulates cortisol secretion by human adrenal cells by a cyclooxygenase-dependent mechanism. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Progesterone]

Why are you against clomid exactly?

 

[Elephanto]

Why are you against clomid exactly?

Like I wrote, most of these drugs take a toll on the liver in long-term and this deteriorates hormonal and general health. This happens often to people who roid, or the guy you posted who reached a "peak" in hair loss/sebum after quitting clomid. On one hand, you have testimonies all over the internet and the real world of endocrine-modifying drugs causing long-term damage, and on the other many vitamins, minerals, natural substances and habits that either directly inhibit estrogen synthesis and/or shift the health balance positively in a way that achieves estrogen, stress, calcification, liver damage, endotoxin reduction without having drawbacks. So why take the risk when the safer way can achieve dramatic results. Maybe as a temporary crutch it can be safe and beneficial, just like Peat advices to not use Cyproheptadine for more than a few weeks.

Also it's as much what you take as it is what you avoid. Mental stress, excess alcohol/cannabis, lack or excess of physical activity, Omega 6s, gut irritants like gluten, high ejaculation frequency, excess fat intake can slowly decline your health to promote estrogenicity and hair loss. Moving in the opposite direction for all these parameters can only help to stop hair loss progression.

 

[Motif]

I could imagine liver health is more important than most think.
But I get seb eczema / bad dermatitis from taurine

Still don't know what to do with zinc and copper. Always low / deficient in my blood.
Still doesn't go up when I supplement them.

 

[jacob]

@Elephanto I've had diffuse hair loss for several years. My lab results consistently show high-range E2, high-range SHBG, mid-range T, and below-range Free T.

No amount of Ray Peat foods or supplements over the past 2 years have ever helped my consistent diffuse hair loss.

In your experience, what am I overlooking here?

 

[Arrade]

@Elephanto I've had diffuse hair loss for several years. My lab results consistently show high-range E2, high-range SHBG, mid-range T, and below-range Free T.

No amount of Ray Peat foods or supplements over the past 2 years have ever helped my consistent diffuse hair loss.

In your experience, what am I overlooking here?

High E2 in men is inflammatory, are you using the fat soluble aromatase I inhibiting vitamins?
Personally I would start there, you may also have a zinc problem I evelive that lowers SHBG

 

[Luckytype]

@Elephanto I've had diffuse hair loss for several years. My lab results consistently show high-range E2, high-range SHBG, mid-range T, and below-range Free T.

No amount of Ray Peat foods or supplements over the past 2 years have ever helped my consistent diffuse hair loss.

In your experience, what am I overlooking here?

What is your body composition like?

Also what is your thyroid health/energy state like?

Higher E2 and high SHBG indicate some sort of conversion or accumulation state.

Your T is midrange because its primarily being converted but otherwise shares binding with E on SHBG.

 

[Progesterone]

Like I wrote, most of these drugs take a toll on the liver in long-term and this deteriorates hormonal and general health. This happens often to people who roid, or the guy you posted who reached a "peak" in hair loss/sebum after quitting clomid. On one hand, you have testimonies all over the internet and the real world of endocrine-modifying drugs causing long-term damage, and on the other many vitamins, minerals, natural substances and habits that either directly inhibit estrogen synthesis and/or shift the health balance positively in a way that achieves estrogen, stress, calcification, liver damage, endotoxin reduction without having drawbacks. So why take the risk when the safer way can achieve dramatic results. Maybe as a temporary crutch it can be safe and beneficial, just like Peat advices to not use Cyproheptadine for more than a few weeks.

Also it's as much what you take as it is what you avoid. Mental stress, excess alcohol/cannabis, lack or excess of physical activity, Omega 6s, gut irritants like gluten, high ejaculation frequency, excess fat intake can slowly decline your health to promote estrogenicity and hair loss. Moving in the opposite direction for all these parameters can only help to stop hair loss progression.

About the guy whose experience I posted..

Why do you assume he started to have issues because of something liver related?

The studies that have been done on clomid on hypogonadal men for up to ~3yrs, actually show it effective for that amount of time, no real crazy side effects, T stays high, however 'libido' can potentially decline a bit in some men.

The estrogenic zuc isomer over the long term takes over in a 20:1 ratio over the antiestrogenic enc isomer.

Why over-complicate things by saying it messed up his liver? The drug is working as advertised if you understand the science behind it.

It's nothing I never noticed personally when I've used clomid in the past, in fact it always skyrockets libido, and a bunch of other things, even in long term.

I wonder what Peat thinks of men using low doses of drugs like clomid to boost their T.

It's really gaining (or already has rather) a lot of traction for use in men for these purposes. It's much preferable to a lot of endo's to start their patients off on clomid rather than T, and see how they do. Considering clomid will not interfere with natural T production or fertility, sperm, etc.. on the contrary, it will actually increase those things.

 

[Arrade]

About the guy whose experience I posted..

Why do you assume he started to have issues because of something liver related?

The studies that have been done on clomid on hypogonadal men for up to ~3yrs, actually show it effective for that amount of time, no real crazy side effects, T stays high, however 'libido' can potentially decline a bit in some men.

The estrogenic zuc isomer over the long term takes over in a 20:1 ratio over the antiestrogenic enc isomer.

Why over-complicate things by saying it messed up his liver? The drug is working as advertised if you understand the science behind it.

It's nothing I never noticed personally when I've used clomid in the past, in fact it always skyrockets libido, and a bunch of other things, even in long term.

I wonder what Peat thinks of men using low doses of drugs like clomid to boost their T.

It's really gaining (or already has rather) a lot of traction for use in men for these purposes. It's much preferable to a lot of endo's to start their patients off on clomid rather than T, and see how they do. Considering clomid will not interfere with natural T production or fertility, sperm, etc.. on the contrary, it will actually increase those things.

As I understand clomid is used to treat Hypogonadism. It’s part of the after steroid cycle “post cycle therapy.”

 

[Progesterone]

As I understand clomid is used to treat Hypogonadism. It’s part of the after steroid cycle “post cycle therapy.”

Yes.

You are correct.

Lots of doctors have men use it to treat Low T and Low T symptoms, as a first line defense, before giving T (if it's even needed after).

There are many studies out there nowadays regarding this.

 

[General Orange]

I could imagine liver health is more important than most think.
But I get seb eczema / bad dermatitis from taurine

Still don't know what to do with zinc and copper. Always low / deficient in my blood.
Still doesn't go up when I supplement them.

How is your Iron? iron antagonizes both Cu and Zn directly according to mineral balance charts. Like this

 

[geneu]

welcome back

 

[Elephanto]

@Elephanto I've had diffuse hair loss for several years. My lab results consistently show high-range E2, high-range SHBG, mid-range T, and below-range Free T.

No amount of Ray Peat foods or supplements over the past 2 years have ever helped my consistent diffuse hair loss.

In your experience, what am I overlooking here?

High sugar wasn't helpful for my hair either, and dairy neither (contains IGF-1 like I mentioned).

Fructose can shut down SHBG and induce a fatty liver from lipogenesis (so reducing total fat intake, and taking Niacinamide also help in this regard).
Too Much Sugar Turns Off Gene That Controls Effects Of Sex Steroids
Fructose Consumption, Lipogenesis, and Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease

Being consistent with the anti-estrogenic supps and taking pretty much all the ones I mentioned that affect Estrogen in one of my posts should help. It can also come from high inorganic copper (free copper), that a few weeks of high dose molybdenum can fix then resplenishing with Zinc. Doing nofap for a while, doing daily cardio, fixing breathing habits. I'd try to look on the Serotonin perspective too, since it leads to chronic cortisol elevation which increases Estrogen. Maybe get your Iron levels checked, a promoter of tryptophan hydroxylase. Avoiding darkness and blue lights, getting blue-blocking glasses. A bit of palmitic acid will lower stress (about 2 tsps of cocoa butter daily). Maybe consider the Fluoride perspective causing hypothyroidism, for which Boron is the most effective chelator. Check the threads "Cause of Baldness" and "If Calcification is the root cause of hair loss" for my previous posts because I'm probably forgetting other advices.

 

[jacob]

High E2 in men is inflammatory, are you using the fat soluble aromatase I inhibiting vitamins?
Personally I would start there, you may also have a zinc problem I evelive that lowers SHBG

I've used A, D, E & K pretty regularly. I've used both low doses of the fat solubles (Estroban) and higher doses of individual fat solubles (Health Natura, Thorne, Tocovit, etc). I've never experienced any noticeable improvement in mood, appearance, libido, temp, pulse, or lab values from any of them.

I've used zinc off and on as a supplement and eat oysters regularly at time. My skin seems to look better when I use zinc or eat oysters. I've had micronutrient tests done which show my zinc and copper levels are in a good range though so I'm skeptical on continued supplementation.

What is your body composition like?

Also what is your thyroid health/energy state like?

Higher E2 and high SHBG indicate some sort of conversion or accumulation state.

Your T is midrange because its primarily being converted but otherwise shares binding with E on SHBG.

Attached is a photo of my normal body composition. Usually pretty lean. I don't put on weight or muscle very easily. I can drop weight/water pretty easily.

Thyroid blood work is okay. TSH value is usually around 1.5. Supplementing thyroid boosts testosterone, E2, and SHBG values a lot. I can get TSH below 1.0 with supplements but it never seems to improve my energy state; it only improves my blood work.

My energy state is generally pretty low and lethargic. I'm chronically tired. I sleep 8 hours per night and usually wake up exhausted.

Temperature is usually 98.1-98.4. Pulse is usually around 80 after eating but falls to 55-60 the further away I am from my last meal.

That's a good point about T converting to E. I have wondered about this in the past. In your experience, what's a good way to improve this?

 

[Luckytype]

View attachment 10566

I've used A, D, E & K pretty regularly. I've used both low doses of the fat solubles (Estroban) and higher doses of individual fat solubles (Health Natura, Thorne, Tocovit, etc). I've never experienced any noticeable improvement in mood, appearance, libido, temp, pulse, or lab values from any of them.

I've used zinc off and on as a supplement and eat oysters regularly at time. My skin seems to look better when I use zinc or eat oysters. I've had micronutrient tests done which show my zinc and copper levels are in a good range though so I'm skeptical on continued supplementation.



Attached is a photo of my normal body composition. Usually pretty lean. I don't put on weight or muscle very easily. I can drop weight/water pretty easily.

Thyroid blood work is okay. TSH value is usually around 1.5. Supplementing thyroid boosts testosterone, E2, and SHBG values a lot. I can get TSH below 1.0 with supplements but it never seems to improve my energy state; it only improves my blood work.

My energy state is generally pretty low and lethargic. I'm chronically tired. I sleep 8 hours per night and usually wake up exhausted.

Temperature is usually 98.1-98.4. Pulse is usually around 80 after eating but falls to 55-60 the further away I am from my last meal.

That's a good point about T converting to E. I have wondered about this in the past. In your experience, what's a good way to improve this?

Conversion for a lot of people can be a fatness issue which obviously neither of us have. Further than that training itself is a major stressor for some. It will raise a ton of different hormones as well as the bad ones with good. I never wanted to admit this to myself but my body just plain needed to rest. For example training to add muscle and eating to stay lean can give you that but the body may perceive this as underfed. Underfed people often have protective dysregulation.

Depending on caloric intake you may feel a bit better backing off on training and adding in some calories. When you say you dont gain weight easily thats because you would need more food but your body will prioritize many things including your stress helpers(read:muscle, stress hormones etc) before it helps hair.

Do you consume a good amount of food and carbs and do you have any idea of your prolactin and vitamin D levels?

 

[Progesterone]

clomid is turning me into a beast, folks.

body composition effects becoming apparent now. mood is better, very confident. feeling like my old self, and for some reason, WANTING to lift heavy weights (like I always did back in the day).

to my eye, hair is looking better but let's wait and see after a few months...

I highly recommend anyone who is low T, to try clomid.

 

[jacob]

High sugar wasn't helpful for my hair either, and dairy neither (contains IGF-1 like I mentioned).

Fructose can shut down SHBG and induce a fatty liver from lipogenesis (so reducing total fat intake, and taking Niacinamide also help in this regard).
Too Much Sugar Turns Off Gene That Controls Effects Of Sex Steroids
Fructose Consumption, Lipogenesis, and Non-Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease

Being consistent with the anti-estrogenic supps and taking pretty much all the ones I mentioned that affect Estrogen in one of my posts should help. It can also come from high inorganic copper (free copper), that a few weeks of high dose molybdenum can fix then resplenishing with Zinc. Doing nofap for a while, doing daily cardio, fixing breathing habits. I'd try to look on the Serotonin perspective too, since it leads to chronic cortisol elevation which increases Estrogen. Maybe get your Iron levels checked, a promoter of tryptophan hydroxylase. Avoiding darkness and blue lights, getting blue-blocking glasses. A bit of palmitic acid will lower stress (about 2 tsps of cocoa butter daily). Maybe consider the Fluoride perspective causing hypothyroidism, for which Boron is the most effective chelator. Check the threads "Cause of Baldness" and "If Calcification is the root cause of hair loss" for my previous posts because I'm probably forgetting other advices.

Thanks, I'll look into each of these further. What do you consider to be a helpful amount of molybdenum?

Conversion for a lot of people can be a fatness issue which obviously neither of us have. Further than that training itself is a major stressor for some. It will raise a ton of different hormones as well as the bad ones with good. I never wanted to admit this to myself but my body just plain needed to rest. For example training to add muscle and eating to stay lean can give you that but the body may perceive this as underfed. Underfed people often have protective dysregulation.

Depending on caloric intake you may feel a bit better backing off on training and adding in some calories. When you say you dont gain weight easily thats because you would need more food but your body will prioritize many things including your stress helpers(read:muscle, stress hormones etc) before it helps hair.

Do you consume a good amount of food and carbs and do you have any idea of your prolactin and vitamin D levels?

I agree about the training issue and protective dysregulation. I thought I could make progress while eating in a deficit for too long. I definitely wasn't good to myself for a very long time and I'm paying for it now.

I've greatly reduced my training frequency in the last year. I'm in the gym 4-6 times per month now. Frustratingly, I still haven't seen a huge improvement in the way I feel or in temp/pulse/bloodwork.

Calories are 2,200 - 3,500 per day depending on lifestyle/work/convenience. Carbs are usually 250g-500g depending on total calories. I'm never less than 250g of carbs per day at this point. While I know it may be controversial here, I'm starting to include more non-Peat approved items the last few weeks in order to increase calories more.

I've had my prolcatin level checked 5 times in the past 2 years. It's fluctuated from 6.9-10.1 in that period on a 2.6-17.0 range. Most recently it was 7.0 in July.

My vitamin D level has varied between 39 - 107 on a 30 - 100 range in the past 2 years. Most recently it was 46 in July.

My D & K both tested low in July on a micronutrient test despite supplementing both of them regularly (Health Natura D + Thorne K + Jarrow MK7 + summer sun). I'm not sure why both of these are low given my diet + supplements. Regardless, my current condition existed before & during periods when my D & K levels were much better.

 

[Luckytype]

@jacob for what its worth it took nearly two years for my metabolism to pick back up after being a complete idiot to it and my body for almost 2 decades. It can take quite a long time. Also, i had bloodwork improve before even any symptoms improved. So dont stick like glue to it but letnit guide you.

Vit D and PRL are good though, good work on that

 

[Elephanto]

@jacob The guide I followed had 500mcg 3 times a day for Molybdenum. Doing it for 1-2 months should be enough, then resplenishing with dietary copper sources, P-5-P (lack of the enzyme that converts B6 in P-5-P causes Copper excess in Wilson's Disease) and Zinc Picolinate. I think it's important to be consistent when doing a chelation protocol and to not skip days.