Noam Chomsky — Can Civilisation Survive?

[narouz]

When you give government centralized power, they will absolutely always abuse it, as history shows. There has to be checks and balances.

So...you're hankerin' for some purely capitalist state,
with no central bank,
but with checks and balances...

I really don't see how that adds up.

Are you picturing a democracy?

 

[Waremu]

When you give government centralized power, they will absolutely always abuse it, as history shows. There has to be checks and balances.

So...you're hankerin' for some purely capitalist state,
with no central bank,
but with checks and balances...

I really don't see how that adds up.

Are you picturing a democracy?

Wait here a second. Are you actually insinuating that a central bank offers checks and balances? You do realize the Fed is the most private institution we have, which runs government, but is not actually government, right?

And ideally, democracy isn't the best thing to have either (that is why America was founded as a republic, not a democracy), since democracy is basically mob rule.

 

[narouz]

Wait here a second. Are you actually insinuating that a central bank offers checks and balances? You do realize the Fed is the most private institution we have, which runs government, but is not actually government?

And ideally, democracy isn't the best thing to have either (that is why America was founded as a republic, not a democracy), since democracy is basically mob rule.

No, I wasn't insinuating that, War. :)

Seems like to me,
if you are saying you'd like your ideal country
to be a republic along the lines of the USA...

...but then you also want this ideal country to be purely capitalist...

What happens when your republic votes to regulate financial systems,
adopt a progressive tax scheme, provide universal health insurance, etc...?

 

[mt_dreams]

Communism was born by the same people who were concocting international organized money, it was doomed from the beginning. It was meant as punishment, not as a thrive-able way of life in the 20th/21st century. If you cannot trade, you cannot grow.

Capitalism is only allowed if you agree to join international money, it's the dessert they give us to allow them to run the show. A monetary example would be in the last 30 years, the US debt has risen 15 trillion dollars. In that same amount of time, they have paid 12 trillion in interest. So in reality, they have only incurred a 3 trillion debt in that time, but in order to be included in the party, they have had to give away 12 trillion to the IMF over that time. Russia does not want to play this game (and rightfully so), which is why their debt is in the billions, and America's debt is nearing 20 trillion.

 

[Waremu]

It's not something that you "try", what you refer to is at best proletarian dictatorship and at worst a West-funded totalitarian regime.

The last few decades, America has done it's bidding on behalf of it's banker masters. Ever since the establishment of the Fed system in 1913, America went further and further away from capitalism into a system which centralizes power and allows government to regulate and control everything, much similar to communism than to capitalism. While the remnants of what made America great were dying off, governments still reminded people of how bad communism was --- and rightly so. But that is no more. Even communist countries such as China and Russia have opened their doors to capitalism and have benefited greatly from it ever since. And that is why they do not want to go back to pure communism, and are slowly moving further away from it, because they know firsthand that capitalism works. Sadly ever since cultural Marxism and radical liberalism flooded in, the government has moved further away from what it was founded as to the degree that today it is almost like an entirely different country. This is because the central bankers prefer to use the tools of communism or extreme socialism to gain a foothold on countries, as in pure republics which have limited governments, it is hard to control the people and rule in their own favor by getting the government to do their bidding. We saw this with the EU, for example. Not every EU country got to even vote on entering the EU.

The sad thing is, in desperate times, people often elect radical leaders and revolutions occur, often not for the greater good. Over the last few decades, because America has been trying to nation build and police the world, on behalf of their globalist masters, many people including youth today are unhappy and are willing to take desperate measures to stop the corruption they may see. But the reality of the situation is in their unhappiness with the way the country has been ruling, they are turning back to extreme measures as a means to solve these problems. In so doing, and in their desperation, they turn to radical systems such as communism. They hear their radical Marxist teachers bash capitalism (even though their teachers often know nothing about it or about economics) and then they hear the government-controlled media bash capitalism and the things that made America an economic powerhouse. So they don't think for themselves and turn to extreme measures.

I understand those who are fed up with the way America is going, but to give the government more power by transforming it into something that does not work for the people will not work and will just play into the master plan of the financial elite who really run the country from the higher chain of command. America has funded dictators and has done some bad things. But this is because it's people no longer rule it, but rather a few financial elite.

 

[mt_dreams]

They probably would've collapsed much sooner as they wouldn't have the boogeyman of imperialism as an excuse to imprison people (without ties to the enemies). Without the U.S. embargo Castro would've been gone a long time ago.

I don't consider Cuba a country which can thrive (in the capitalistic sense) on it's own. Though in reality they were not given the tools to properly increase energy, which is the first thing that has to happen for any country to get out of the dark ages. You should see how well some of the self-taught Cuban electricians do with what little power they have, I have a laugh every time I'm there. All countries have people that are essentially imprisoned within the system by their lack of ability or situation, so it's not only a Cuban problem. They have free education (which is the best in Latin America) & healthcare for all people, so they're are some positives that came out of the countries government style. Though there's massive room for improvement in quality of life, as a lack of food should be a countries first responsibility. Like many countries in the region, this is not being looked after.

 

[Waremu]

Communism was born by the same people who were concocting international organized money, it was doomed from the beginning. It was meant as punishment, not as a thrive-able way of life in the 20th/21st century. If you cannot trade, you cannot grow.

Capitalism is only allowed if you agree to join international money, it's the dessert they give us to allow them to run the show. A monetary example would be in the last 30 years, the US debt has risen 15 trillion dollars. In that same amount of time, they have paid 12 trillion in interest. So in reality, they have only incurred a 3 trillion debt in that time, but in order to be included in the party, they have had to give away 12 trillion to the IMF over that time. Russia does not want to play this game (and rightfully so), which is why their debt is in the billions, and America's debt is nearing 20 trillion.

I think capitalism could work even if one does not agree to join international money, as long as their currency was backed by a tangible commodity and their own government regulated and coined the currency, instead of some central bank.

The problem is, unless you cave in to the globalist banker demands, which is to join the IMF/or work with their member countries in that part of their global enslavement economy, then it will work, but only for a time. Until they cause you to rank up trillions of dollars in debt until your bonds become worthless and then you collapse and then they come in and buy everything up and gain more control. Russia and China are the enemies, not because communism is good, but because they won't play into their system. And we see this with their BRICS system they are now building to oppose the IMF system.

 

[Such_Saturation]

It's not something that you "try", what you refer to is at best proletarian dictatorship and at worst a West-funded totalitarian regime.

The last few decades, America has done it's bidding on behalf of it's banker masters. Ever since the establishment of the Fed system in 1913, America went further and further away from capitalism into a system which centralizes power and allows government to regulate and control everything, much similar to communism than to capitalism. While the remnants of what made America great were dying off, governments still reminded people of how bad communism was --- and rightly so. But that is no more. Even communist countries such as China and Russia have opened their doors to capitalism and have benefited greatly from it ever since. And that is why they do not want to go back to pure communism, and are slowly moving further away from it, because they know firsthand that capitalism works. Sadly ever since cultural Marxism and radical liberalism flooded in, the government has moved further away from what it was founded as to the degree that today it is almost like an entirely different country. This is because the central bankers prefer to use the tools of communism or extreme socialism to gain a foothold on countries, as in pure republics which have limited governments, it is hard to control the people and rule in their own favor by getting the government to do their bidding. We saw this with the EU, for example. Not every EU country got to even vote on entering the EU.

The sad thing is, in desperate times, people often elect radical leaders and revolutions occur, often not for the greater good. Over the last few decades, because America has been trying to nation build and police the world, on behalf of their globalist masters, many people including youth today are unhappy and are willing to take desperate measures to stop the corruption they may see. But the reality of the situation is in their unhappiness with the way the country has been ruling, they are turning back to extreme measures as a means to solve these problems. In so doing, and in their desperation, they turn to radical systems such as communism. They hear their radical Marxist teachers bash capitalism (even though their teachers often know nothing about it or about economics) and then they hear the government-controlled media bash capitalism and the things that made America an economic powerhouse. So they don't think for themselves and turn to extreme measures.

I understand those who are fed up with the way America is going, but to give the government more power by transforming it into something that does not work for the people will not work and will just play into the master plan of the financial elite who really run the country from the higher chain of command. America has funded dictators and has done some bad things. But this is because it's people no longer rule it, but rather a few financial elite.

But at the same time you seem to have a conception of communism which is exactly the one emanated by Cold War Western propaganda.

 

[mt_dreams]

I think capitalism could work even if one does not agree to join international money, as long as their currency was backed by a tangible commodity and their own government regulated and coined the currency, instead of some central bank.

The problem is, unless you cave in to the globalist banker demands, which is to join the IMF/or work with their member countries in that part of their global enslavement economy, then it will work, but only for a time. Until they cause you to rank up trillions of dollars in debt until your bonds become worthless and then you collapse and then they come in and buy everything up and gain more control. Russia and China are the enemies, not because communism is good, but because they won't play into their system. And we see this with their BRICS system they are now building to oppose the IMF system.

By taking all IMF controlled money off the gold standard, they have rigged the system ... it's like everyone 10x their money with the flick of a switch. Countries choosing not to join had to just sit there and watch the illusion grow, and what a great illusion it is. The only problem is it also 10x those country's debt.

If you back your countries dollar to the gold standard, it's tough to keep up with countries playing with pretend money. That's why only super powers like russia & china have been able to survive the communist storm that the IMF sent their way. Keeping debt low is the only way to insure continued success, and unless we bring back the real celebration of jubilee which wiped out country debt once or twice a century, everyone's headed for the situation Greece is currently experiencing.

It's frustrating that we cannot just come out and say that the whole reason nato is fighting russia is b/c Russia wants to go back to the old way of life where a country could borrow from itself without all this interest nonsense, while staying up to date in 21st century capitalistic opportunities. I'm pretty sure if you ask any American if they would rather have put 400 billion a year for the last 30 years into their countries debt instead of into the money makers pockets, it would make them want to go get their rifle. In this case interest means TAX. Doesn't anyone remember the reason why they broke away from Britain in the first place?

 

[narouz]

Communism was born by the same people who were concocting international organized money, it was doomed from the beginning. It was meant as punishment, not as a thrive-able way of life in the 20th/21st century. If you cannot trade, you cannot grow.

Capitalism is only allowed if you agree to join international money, it's the dessert they give us to allow them to run the show. A monetary example would be in the last 30 years, the US debt has risen 15 trillion dollars. In that same amount of time, they have paid 12 trillion in interest. So in reality, they have only incurred a 3 trillion debt in that time, but in order to be included in the party, they have had to give away 12 trillion to the IMF over that time. Russia does not want to play this game (and rightfully so), which is why their debt is in the billions, and America's debt is nearing 20 trillion.

Don't see a whole lot of folks scrambling to move to Russia, though.
So...ditching "the international money" obviously doesn't fix a whole lot....

 

[narouz]

You know, it inevitably comes to this point with libertarian schemes.
Some non-libertarian like myself can't really decode what is being said.

For that decoding I'd have to enter whole hog into
The Special Knowledge:
the backstories of
The Evil Federal Reserve,
The Evil IMF,
The Evil Bilderberg Group,
The Evil Trilateral Commission,
etc.
And then try to unravel the Subtle Mysteries of the exalted Austrian Economics.

It is a separate mythic universe
with its own set of Evil Forces
sneaking about behind the scenes,
oft times with hooked noses and greedy fingers.
They are our Masters and we are their feudal Serfs.
This mythic universe is like a Tolkien novel,
a self-enclosed and self-sufficient universe.
It makes perfect and obvious sense to those who choose to live within that universe.
But very little to those of us without The Special Knowledge.

It would be easier if we could just have an example of
one of these ideal libertarian countries.
You know...a real one.
That really exists in this world at this time.
That works great like you guys say.
Where we could move to if we wanted.

 

[johns74]

It would be easier if we could just have an example of
one of these ideal libertarian countries.

As I explained very clearly so that even someone not very smart can understand, no country with a central bank is capitalist. So you can't look at any country today, as far as I know, as an example of capitalism. If you want to look at something closer to what a capitalist economy looks like in the United States, you have to go back to 1912. Since 1913 it's not debatable anymore, the U.S. is no longer a capitalist country.

Your comments about what happens when a country votes for X or Y shows that you're completely confused and mixing the concepts involved here. The method of election of an economic system is one thing, the economic system is another thing. You're conflating the two. Examples:

A. A dictator imposes price controls on food
B. A democracy imposes price controls on food
C. A Congress elected by the people imposes price controls on food

Here you have three different systems to choose policies, which nevertheless chose the same policy. Capitalism is not a method to select an economic system, it's an economic system. It's like asking what's capitalism's views on saturated fats. Capitalism is not about either of those things.

 

[mt_dreams]

It would be easier if we could just have an example of
one of these ideal libertarian countries.

As I explained very clearly so that even someone not very smart can understand, no country with a central bank is capitalist. So you can't look at any country today, as far as I know, as an example of capitalism. If you want to look at something closer to what a capitalist economy looks like in the United States, you have to go back to 1912. Since 1913 is not debatable anymore, the U.S. is no longer a capitalist country.

Yes the IMF (or whatever you want to call the guys running the show pre-1945) basically forced everyone to play their game as inflation was a mess before they took everyone off the gold standard. We were operating in an economical world we couldn't perfect. We allowed people to get rich from the materials under the ground, instead of the entire country reaping those benefits. It was a messy game then, & it still is.

The US had twice prior to 1912 kicked out private money. It was Andrew Jackson's best accomplishment as President to kick out private banks the 2nd & final time before they started playing extra dirty. It was Lincolns refusal to put The US back into private hands that ultimately lead to his death. I would imagine Kennedy's greenback interest free US currency idea also sealed his fate.

 

[narouz]

As I explained very clearly so that even someone not very smart can understand...

I take it that would be moi.
Okay, I'm with ya so far.

Since 1913 it's not debatable anymore, the U.S. is no longer a capitalist country.

Kinda feelin' some might wish to debate that just a tad.
And starting to feel the need for a Libertarian Decoder Ring...

Your comments about what happens when a country votes for X or Y shows that you're completely confused...

I get that a lot.

Examples:

A. A dictator imposes price controls on food
B. A democracy imposes price controls on food
C. A Congress elected by the people imposes prices controls on food

Here you have three different systems to choose policies, which nevertheless chose the same policy. Capitalism is not a method to select an economic system, it's an economic system. It's like asking what's capitalism's views on saturated fats. Capitalism is not about either of those things.

Shows what a sillyhead I am.
My interest did pique when you mentioned capitalism's views on saturated fats.
But leaving that aside...
seems like what you and War and Mountain Dreams are dreaming of
is a state where you could just leave out the other stuff like democracy or republic or dictator,
and just simply live in the glory of a purely Capitalist state...right?

 

[mt_dreams]

It would be easier if we could just have an example of
one of these ideal libertarian countries.
You know...a real one.
That really exists in this world at this time.
That works great like you guys say.
Where we could move to if we wanted.

You can't move anywhere as the actions of the last 300 years (most notably oil & money lending) have wiped out all other ideals.

Looking back at history is tough b/c we've been fighting the entire time. Decent examples would be the italian city states that pretty much started modern-day trading techniques 1000 years ago. They did not want to be part of the aging roman byzantine empire, and sought to create their own utopia. Within a couple hundred years they became the economic capital of Europe. We owe the Renaissance to these forward thinkers. Another example would be parts of the Ottoman empire. They allowed people to follow their own faith while still being considered equal members of society, had the lowest ever tax rate of modern empires, and promoted things like acceptance of homosexuality, no slavery, women were not items that could be bought & sold, etc. It wasn't perfect, but then again, we've been looking for perfection ever since we left the garden, and it appears we've yet to find it.

 

[Such_Saturation]

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... -track-tpp

I would think that a place where this is not allowed would not be very capitalistic.

 

[narouz]

...Decent examples would be the italian city states that pretty much started modern-day trading techniques 1000 years ago. They did not want to be part of the aging roman byzantine empire, and sought to create their own utopia. Within a couple hundred years they became the economic capital of Europe. We owe the Renaissance to these forward thinkers. Another example would be parts of the Ottoman empire. They allowed people to follow their own faith while still being considered equal members of society, had the lowest ever tax rate of modern empires, and promoted things like acceptance of homosexuality, no slavery, women were not items that could be bought & sold, etc....

Okay man.
That's a start.

 

[jaguar43]

You know, it inevitably comes to this point with libertarian schemes.
Some non-libertarian like myself can't really decode what is being said.

For that decoding I'd have to enter whole hog into
The Special Knowledge:
the backstories of
The Evil Federal Reserve,
The Evil IMF,
The Evil Bilderberg Group,
The Evil Trilateral Commission,
etc.
And then try to unravel the Subtle Mysteries of the exalted Austrian Economics.

It is a separate mythic universe
with its own set of Evil Forces
sneaking about behind the scenes,
oft times with hooked noses and greedy fingers.
They are our Masters and we are their feudal Serfs.
This mythic universe is like a Tolkien novel,
a self-enclosed and self-sufficient universe.
It makes perfect and obvious sense to those who choose to live within that universe.
But very little to those of us without The Special Knowledge.

It would be easier if we could just have an example of
one of these ideal libertarian countries.
You know...a real one.
That really exists in this world at this time.
That works great like you guys say.
Where we could move to if we wanted.

True.

And to add insult to injury, Libertarianism under it's original form was Libertarian socialism. It took a more humanistic approach to the hardcore political trends of the time. I believe Peter Kropotkin fell under this category.

Ray Peat has stated in one of his first interviews with politics and science, that Peter Kropotkin was one of his main influences growing up. He also stated that he was one of his first authors that he read as a young child.

knowing this I I wonder what Dr. Peat would think of the present day Libertarians. However he feels, I think its safe to say that the corporate world has taken a very interesting political trend and manipulated it into an anarcho-capitalist/fascist ideology.

 

[mt_dreams]

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/may/27/corporations-paid-us-senators-fast-track-tpp

I would think that a place where this is not allowed would not be very capitalistic.

Oh no you didn't!

All my friends in the states have probably been so preoccupied with burning flags that they probably don't even know that this is being fast tracked through the legal system. Seeing as how it's all unfolding, the heads of the WTO are probably conducting orgies that to the scale IMF are famous for.

 

[narouz]

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/may/27/corporations-paid-us-senators-fast-track-tpp

I would think that a place where this is not allowed would not be very capitalistic.

One wonders how the "crony capitalism" denounced upthread
would be prevented in a purely capitalist state.
Seems to me that far from being prevented,
it would be extolled as the wisest governing force.