With the other interesting threads now running about the gut microbiome,
I wanted to focus in on one maybe overlooked assumption.
Does the microbiome permanently recolonize?
That is to ask:
if we just leave the gut alone,
eat a good Peat diet, etc...
will the gut, left to its own devices, simply repopulate correctly willy-nilly?
I guess I've been under the impression
that our "healthy" intestinal bacteria reproduces continually--
indeed, from a Peatian point of view,
that they OVER proliferate and are dangerous only in that regard,
not that they eventually dwindle and expire if not re-populated through diet.
Peat does not seem to recommend probiotics (either pills or naturally fermented "probiotics")
under any circumstances.
Even in the event one does a Peatish round of correct antibiotics.
Okay...let me say up front about all that: I don't know.
But in doing some research lately on Candida,
I came across this pretty compelling poster "Jorge."
He argues that there are studies showing that healthy microbiota does not permanently recolonize.
In other words,
we must actively help it recolonize if we seek to maintain it.
Well...this has important implications for the Peat diet.
Peat does seem to agree that we need to maintain a healthy microbiome balance.
It's just that with him, he always sees the challenge from the other side:
how to continually tamp down a natural tendency for gut bacteria--even the "healthy" ones--
to overpopulate.
So anyhow...I just wanted to open a discussion on the assumption we all mostly seem to be making
that the gut microbiome needn't be actively repopulated.
So below please check out this Jorge's argument.
It comes from a forum where the central topic is Candida (I have a thread running on this now).
English is a language he learned late in life,
so it is not the best.
But he has posted on that "Curezone" site for many years,
and I've read a lot of them,
and he seems to me to be a persistent and intelligent seeker/researcher.
His handle over there is "dvjorge" if you want to google for more of his stuff.
In the following post he displays some frustration because, apparently,
people misconstrue what he has said about the microbiome and repopulation:
Yes, THEY DO COLONIZE !!!
I have repeated this a million of times but they DON'T last more than 3 months. I have been in contact with the Gordon Lab that is working in the Genome Proyect. I have discussed it with people who has been investigating it for years. If I go to the Curezone archives where I have posted more than 2000 times, I can find long discussions about it with people who have dedicated years to battle candida. There is reliable scientific information in the web from medical sources that recognize that permanent colonization hasn't been proved. I have dedicated a huge amount of hours to find medical papers demonstrating possible pharmaceutical probiotic colonization that be permanent, but it isn't demonstrated. They colonize but they don't last. After 18 days of stopping supplementation they can be detectable, even after 60 days, but not after 90 days. I don't post garbage. Go to the Probiotic Organization and read about it.
It looks like my bad English isn't well understood. They DO colonize but only temporary. There aren't proves they do colonize permanently. It is a matter of time ( months at best ) that they aren't detectable in feces or biopsies. People need to know that. People need to know that the benefits are as long as you supplement them. You gonna find articles about L. Reuteri, V-299, and other species that have been detectable after 60 days of stopping them, but no longer than 3 months. They decline very fast until there isn't more detection.
An article claiming they can detect them after 18 days don't say me anything since I have read other papers detecting colonization after 60 days. What is important is they do form colonies and growth in the intestines. This is something that has to be seen in the future with pharmaceutical grade probiotic, if it is ever possible.
Jorge.
This is fragment of a Patent Production from one of the larger Pharmaceutical grade Probiotic in the world. It is 2012 patent. I am posting it, but I won't continue arguing about it or any other topic. That time already passed for me. It is your turn to find the true and the best way to recover your health. It has been hard for me and I am doing an effort to help. That is it.
[0004] The gastrointestinal microflora has been shown to play a number of vital roles in maintaining gastrointestinal tract function and overall physiological health. For example, the growth and metabolism of the many individual bacterial species inhabiting the gastrointestinal tract depend primarily upon the substrates available to them, most of which are derived from the diet. See e.g., Gibson G. R. et al., 1995. Gastroenterology 106: 975-982; Christi, S. U. et al., 1992. Gut 33: 1234-1238. These finding have led to attempts to modify the structure and metabolic activities of the community through diet, primarily with probiotics which are live microbial food supplements. The best known probiotics are the lactic acid-producing bacteria (i.e., Lactobacilli) and Bifidobacteria, which are widely utilized in yogurts and other dairy products. These probiotic organisms are non-pathogenic and non-toxigenic, retain viability during storage, and survive passage through the stomach and small intestine. Since probiotics do not permanently colonize the host, they need to be ingested regularly for any health promoting properties to persist. Commercial probiotic preparations are generally comprised of mixtures of Lactobacilli and Bifidobacteria, although yeast such as Saccharomyces have also been utilized.
I wanted to focus in on one maybe overlooked assumption.
Does the microbiome permanently recolonize?
That is to ask:
if we just leave the gut alone,
eat a good Peat diet, etc...
will the gut, left to its own devices, simply repopulate correctly willy-nilly?
I guess I've been under the impression
that our "healthy" intestinal bacteria reproduces continually--
indeed, from a Peatian point of view,
that they OVER proliferate and are dangerous only in that regard,
not that they eventually dwindle and expire if not re-populated through diet.
Peat does not seem to recommend probiotics (either pills or naturally fermented "probiotics")
under any circumstances.
Even in the event one does a Peatish round of correct antibiotics.
Okay...let me say up front about all that: I don't know.
But in doing some research lately on Candida,
I came across this pretty compelling poster "Jorge."
He argues that there are studies showing that healthy microbiota does not permanently recolonize.
In other words,
we must actively help it recolonize if we seek to maintain it.
Well...this has important implications for the Peat diet.
Peat does seem to agree that we need to maintain a healthy microbiome balance.
It's just that with him, he always sees the challenge from the other side:
how to continually tamp down a natural tendency for gut bacteria--even the "healthy" ones--
to overpopulate.
So anyhow...I just wanted to open a discussion on the assumption we all mostly seem to be making
that the gut microbiome needn't be actively repopulated.
So below please check out this Jorge's argument.
It comes from a forum where the central topic is Candida (I have a thread running on this now).
English is a language he learned late in life,
so it is not the best.
But he has posted on that "Curezone" site for many years,
and I've read a lot of them,
and he seems to me to be a persistent and intelligent seeker/researcher.
His handle over there is "dvjorge" if you want to google for more of his stuff.
In the following post he displays some frustration because, apparently,
people misconstrue what he has said about the microbiome and repopulation:
Yes, THEY DO COLONIZE !!!
I have repeated this a million of times but they DON'T last more than 3 months. I have been in contact with the Gordon Lab that is working in the Genome Proyect. I have discussed it with people who has been investigating it for years. If I go to the Curezone archives where I have posted more than 2000 times, I can find long discussions about it with people who have dedicated years to battle candida. There is reliable scientific information in the web from medical sources that recognize that permanent colonization hasn't been proved. I have dedicated a huge amount of hours to find medical papers demonstrating possible pharmaceutical probiotic colonization that be permanent, but it isn't demonstrated. They colonize but they don't last. After 18 days of stopping supplementation they can be detectable, even after 60 days, but not after 90 days. I don't post garbage. Go to the Probiotic Organization and read about it.
It looks like my bad English isn't well understood. They DO colonize but only temporary. There aren't proves they do colonize permanently. It is a matter of time ( months at best ) that they aren't detectable in feces or biopsies. People need to know that. People need to know that the benefits are as long as you supplement them. You gonna find articles about L. Reuteri, V-299, and other species that have been detectable after 60 days of stopping them, but no longer than 3 months. They decline very fast until there isn't more detection.
An article claiming they can detect them after 18 days don't say me anything since I have read other papers detecting colonization after 60 days. What is important is they do form colonies and growth in the intestines. This is something that has to be seen in the future with pharmaceutical grade probiotic, if it is ever possible.
Jorge.
This is fragment of a Patent Production from one of the larger Pharmaceutical grade Probiotic in the world. It is 2012 patent. I am posting it, but I won't continue arguing about it or any other topic. That time already passed for me. It is your turn to find the true and the best way to recover your health. It has been hard for me and I am doing an effort to help. That is it.
[0004] The gastrointestinal microflora has been shown to play a number of vital roles in maintaining gastrointestinal tract function and overall physiological health. For example, the growth and metabolism of the many individual bacterial species inhabiting the gastrointestinal tract depend primarily upon the substrates available to them, most of which are derived from the diet. See e.g., Gibson G. R. et al., 1995. Gastroenterology 106: 975-982; Christi, S. U. et al., 1992. Gut 33: 1234-1238. These finding have led to attempts to modify the structure and metabolic activities of the community through diet, primarily with probiotics which are live microbial food supplements. The best known probiotics are the lactic acid-producing bacteria (i.e., Lactobacilli) and Bifidobacteria, which are widely utilized in yogurts and other dairy products. These probiotic organisms are non-pathogenic and non-toxigenic, retain viability during storage, and survive passage through the stomach and small intestine. Since probiotics do not permanently colonize the host, they need to be ingested regularly for any health promoting properties to persist. Commercial probiotic preparations are generally comprised of mixtures of Lactobacilli and Bifidobacteria, although yeast such as Saccharomyces have also been utilized.