Compost is NOT SOIL, soil is Sand, Silt, and Clay. Exposing the compost scam with Gary's Best.

[Regina]

I should mention, (not strictly soil related) but I use a natural action technologies water structuring unit to water all my plants, (been using it for years on house plants to great success). It only just occurred to me to use it on the outdoor plants though… duh…

Our little juice orange tree has no lie about 400 blossoms this year. I’ll post a pic when I get a moment. It’s the only thing I’ve don’t differently on that tree this year as we have not yet done the bare root process, (we may wait til after the season-need to learn more about best practices).

Oh cool. I'll check that out.

 

[:M :B.]

new class

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaQV_EhJKK4&t=4566s

 

[Giraffe]

I think the video fits here. It's basically like Ruth Stout's method, only that he uses leave mulch instead of hay. In his older videos he invested a lot more work. He shredded the leaves and turned them once in a while, but it seems he learned that it's not necessary. He has started with a concrete-hard clay soil, and I think the results are quite impressive.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvXaHsrb4L0

 

[:M :B.]

I think the video fits here. It's basically like Ruth Stout's method, only that he uses leave mulch instead of hay. In his older videos he invested a lot more work. He shredded the leaves and turned them once in a while, but it seems he learned that it's not necessary. He has started with a concrete-hard clay soil, and I think the results are quite impressive.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvXaHsrb4L0

at the 37:50 mark in this vid Gary goes into the details of how that mulch is changing the clay structure.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELVxPE7JGyw&t=3243s

 

[Mathgirl]

Planted my orange trees in Garys Mix...he's a legend in the OC. They are already blooming-in the ground 4 weeks max

 

[EvanHinkle]

Planted my orange trees in Garys Mix...he's a legend in the OC. They are already blooming-in the ground 4 weeks max

Finally got out to his nursery last weekend. Picked up a few tomato plants and bent his ear about bare-rooting our trees to change soil. What a great guy! I learned so much just asking one or two simple questions.

 

[akgrrrl]

@Perry Staltic you bring up a good point, thank you.

At the end of this video he mentions what you can do with sugar which is very interesting.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH7Gk7amhjU

Ooh that WAS interesting. I make sugarwater for all cut flowers but now I will be checkingvit out for rooting cuttings because I do a lot of that from my veggie scraps and flower stems like geraniums. Thanks!

 

[philalethes]

Gary's quite knowledgeable, but I would strongly advise confining the use of fertilizer to potted plants only, and not to actual soil (i.e. in outside gardens or on farms), unless you want to adversely affect the quality of your soil long-term.

This is because, as Elaine Ingham (and many others) has demonstrated conclusively, applying fertilizer to soil will increase the activity of microbes which specialize on simply using freely available nutrients, rather than the ones which act in a symbiotic relationship with the plants to free nutrients from the inorganic minerals making up the soil. This means that the more you apply fertilizer, the worse the quality of your soil becomes, and at a certain point you end up with soil that you not only have to apply fertilizer to, but which will tend to produce swollen plants with few nutrients even if you do, since at some point you'll be unable to provide the underground layers of the soil with the nutrients necessary almost no matter what you do; those nutrients are supposed to be freed up on a continuous basis by the symbiotic microbes.

Conversely, as she also shows, fertilizer is completely unnecessary in soil precisely due to this, because as long as there's a functioning soil microbiome present, all the necessary nutrients will be freed from the soil on a continuous basis. She more or less agrees with Gary about compost, it's certainly not something you ever want to plant in, but it's something that belongs on top of the soil, in order to provide the soil with the necessary microbial life; for this purpose she's also an advocate of compost tea, whose only purpose is precisely to inoculate the soil with additional microbes.

All of that being said, for potted plants it's quite different; since that's such a small volume of soil it would be impossible to maintain a functional ecosystem there to continuously free up nutrients anyway, and it's more feasible to add the necessary nutrients to the pot soil long-term (and/or to even change the soil every now and then).

 

[Perry Staltic]

She more or less agrees with Gary about compost, it's certainly not something you ever want to plant in, but it's something that belongs on top of the soil, in order to provide the soil with the necessary microbial life; for this purpose she's also an advocate of compost tea, whose only purpose is precisely to inoculate the soil with additional microbes.

Compost is essential in clay soil otherwise it's too compacted.

 

[:M :B.]

Gary's quite knowledgeable, but I would strongly advise confining the use of fertilizer to potted plants only, and not to actual soil (i.e. in outside gardens or on farms), unless you want to adversely affect the quality of your soil long-term.

This is because, as Elaine Ingham (and many others) has demonstrated conclusively, applying fertilizer to soil will increase the activity of microbes which specialize on simply using freely available nutrients, rather than the ones which act in a symbiotic relationship with the plants to free nutrients from the inorganic minerals making up the soil. This means that the more you apply fertilizer, the worse the quality of your soil becomes, and at a certain point you end up with soil that you not only have to apply fertilizer to, but which will tend to produce swollen plants with few nutrients even if you do, since at some point you'll be unable to provide the underground layers of the soil with the nutrients necessary almost no matter what you do; those nutrients are supposed to be freed up on a continuous basis by the symbiotic microbes.

Conversely, as she also shows, fertilizer is completely unnecessary in soil precisely due to this, because as long as there's a functioning soil microbiome present, all the necessary nutrients will be freed from the soil on a continuous basis. She more or less agrees with Gary about compost, it's certainly not something you ever want to plant in, but it's something that belongs on top of the soil, in order to provide the soil with the necessary microbial life; for this purpose she's also an advocate of compost tea, whose only purpose is precisely to inoculate the soil with additional microbes.

All of that being said, for potted plants it's quite different; since that's such a small volume of soil it would be impossible to maintain a functional ecosystem there to continuously free up nutrients anyway, and it's more feasible to add the necessary nutrients to the pot soil long-term (and/or to even change the soil every now and then).

Garry agrees. 18minute mark to about 24minute.
View: https://www.youtube.com/live/ELVxPE7JGyw?feature=share

 

[Mathgirl]

Gary is the Ray Peat of soil...he is humble and knowledgable and available

 

[EvanHinkle]

Gary is the Ray Peat of soil...he is humble and knowledgable and available

Agreed, very similar vibe to Peat.

 

[philalethes]

Compost is essential in clay soil otherwise it's too compacted.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Compost and other decaying matter is indeed essential to restore clay soils to health, but only applied on top of the soil. Soil should never be disturbed (i.e. never be tilled or dug up to add material underground). By providing more microbial activity and allowing whatever plants that manage to establish themselves to simply grow and add more biomatter even clay soils can be rendered fertile, because structures like fungal hyphae will provide the soil with the structure that would otherwise require more silt and sand (which is what Gary is talking about in the original clip). This means the soil will be naturally decompacted by the microbial activity over time.

Garry agrees. 18minute mark to about 24minute.

That's great, he does indeed seem to understand the principles at play very well. I just wanted to make it clear for anyone reading this thread that fertilizer is best left for potted plants, so that they don't unnecessarily compromise the long-term health of their garden or farm soil for some quick returns.

 

[Perry Staltic]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Compost and other decaying matter is indeed essential to restore clay soils to health, but only applied on top of the soil. Soil should never be disturbed (i.e. never be tilled or dug up to add material underground). By providing more microbial activity and allowing whatever plants that manage to establish themselves to simply grow and add more biomatter even clay soils can be rendered fertile, because structures like fungal hyphae will provide the soil with the structure that would otherwise require more silt and sand (which is what Gary is talking about in the original clip). This means the soil will be naturally decompacted by the microbial activity over time.

Yeah over time they can be made fertile, but I don't have time. Plus it's not practical in raised bed gardening. So I mix it all together and have 12" of instantaneous fertile clay soil that is well aerated and holds water well.

 

[philalethes]

Yeah over time they can be made fertile, but I don't have time. Plus it's not practical in raised bed gardening. So I mix it all together and have 12" of instantaneous fertile clay soil that is well aerated and holds water well.

Are you mixing the compost into the clay soil for that purpose? Sounds like you could achieve the same benefits by mixing in more silt and sand instead, and leave the compost where it belongs, as it will adversely affect plant growth if mixed into the soil itself. Or perhaps you're only mixing in a very small amount of compost per unit of total volume in the beds to achieve the desired level of microbial activity? In that case I guess you'd still need to add in silt and sand, so maybe you're doing both?

In any case, with raised beds you can certainly treat them like large pots in terms of intervening into and restructuring the soil, even if they are connected to the actual ground at the bottom, especially if there's not much life in the soil (or dirt) to begin with. That being said, if you have a larger area at your disposal than is practical to micromanage in that manner, then you could always work on trying to naturally restore it to life over time.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Are you mixing the compost into the clay soil for that purpose? Sounds like you could achieve the same benefits by mixing in more silt and sand instead, and leave the compost where it belongs, as it will adversely affect plant growth if mixed into the soil itself. Or perhaps you're only mixing in a very small amount of compost per unit of total volume in the beds to achieve the desired level of microbial activity? In that case I guess you'd still need to add in silt and sand, so maybe you're doing both?

In any case, with raised beds you can certainly treat them like large pots in terms of intervening into and restructuring the soil, even if they are connected to the actual ground at the bottom, especially if there's not much life in the soil (or dirt) to begin with. That being said, if you have a larger area at your disposal than is practical to micromanage in that manner, then you could always work on trying to naturally restore it to life over time.

Sand improves drainage, but not water retention. How in the world would compost be detrimental to plant growth when that's where plants have most of their roots? 12" of topsoil is better than 1" of same

 

[philalethes]

How in the world would compost be detrimental to plant growth when that's where plants have most of their roots?

That's exactly what Gary explains in the video in the original post; plants don't naturally have most of their roots in anything resembling compost at all, as he points out the organic content of soil is only a tiny fraction of that in compost, which is still in the process of decomposition. Terrible environment for plants, great environment for fungi. Mixing compost into the soil of a garden bed would yield significantly worse plant growth than not doing so, because it would promote an environment of decomposition.

As for achieving a good balance between aeration/drainage and water retention that's simply a matter of what you put into the soil, i.e. the right amount of silt, sand, and other elements that he mentions in the video, like pumice and peat moss. Compost and mulch goes on top of the soil to provide microbial activity, a steady supply of nutrients, and moisture retention, while the plant is growing in the soil underneath.

 

[Perry Staltic]

That's exactly what Gary explains in the video in the original post; plants don't naturally have most of their roots in anything resembling compost at all, as he points out the organic content of soil is only a tiny fraction of that in compost, which is still in the process of decomposition. Terrible environment for plants, great environment for fungi. Mixing compost into the soil of a garden bed would yield significantly worse plant growth than not doing so, because it would promote an environment of decomposition.

As for achieving a good balance between aeration/drainage and water retention that's simply a matter of what you put into the soil, i.e. the right amount of silt, sand, and other elements that he mentions in the video, like pumice and peat moss. Compost and mulch goes on top of the soil to provide microbial activity, a steady supply of nutrients, and moisture retention, while the plant is growing in the soil underneath.

Compost means decomposed; what you're talking about is mulch. The bagged crap sold as compost in big box stores like Lowes is not compost; it's mostly shredded tree bark, which I agree should not be put into the soil because it will rob nitrogen to decompose. The stuff I put in my soil is the decomposed stuff lying on the ground in the woods. Plants love it.

 

[philalethes]

Compost means decomposed; what you're talking about is mulch. The bagged crap sold as compost in big box stores like Lowes is not compost; it's mostly shredded tree bark, which I agree should not be put into the soil because it will rob nitrogen to decompose. The stuff I put in my soil is the decomposed stuff lying on the ground in the woods. Plants love it.

I think it's fairly obvious that I'm distinguishing between compost and mulch; shredded tree bark counts as the latter, not the former, but if left to decompose for long enough along with sources of nitrogen it would naturally become compost at some point, it's essentially a transition. And while you're right that compost refers to decomposed materials, almost all compost is still in a much too active process of decomposition to be used beneficially in soil in the manner you're talking about.

What you're referring to appears to be humus, since you're referring to the natural compost found in forests.

Humus is different from decomposing soil organic matter. The latter looks rough and has visible remains of the original plant or animal matter. Fully humified humus, on the contrary, has a uniformly dark, spongy, and jelly-like appearance, and is amorphous; it may gradually decay over several years or persist for millennia. It has no determinate shape, structure, or quality. However, when examined under a microscope, humus may reveal tiny plant, animal, or microbial remains that have been mechanically, but not chemically, degraded. This suggests an ambiguous boundary between humus and soil organic matter.

While it's true that this is also technically a form of compost, it's at a stage of decomposition far beyond what's typically referred to as compost in agricultural terms, as it's broken down to the point where it's practically just a form of soil, albeit one with a high content of broken-down organic matter. If that's what you're mixing into the soil of your raised beds that should be perfectly fine.

 

[Perry Staltic]

What you're referring to appears to be humus, since you're referring to the natural compost found in forests.

Yeah that's what I'm using. I pick out the pebbles, leaf stems, leaves, nut shells, etc. If it doesn't crumble I pick it out. Great soil ammendment.