Born is the King

[Demyze]

you obviously had a bad Christian upbringing

I think he stated his issue is with the actual source material of the religion

 

[Explorer]

I wonder if the irony is lost on you guys in this thread... Talking about the ultimate archetype of an authoritarian figure and governing body most likely created by the elite and powerful in times of huge gullibility, as a means to rule over people and keep them in line (complete with imaginary threats of violence, torture, hell and demons for non compliance)... On an anti-authoritarian forum set up to discuss Ray Peat's principles and philosophy which goes completely in opposition to such an authoritarian belief system.

If I didn't think the OP was being serious I would assume he was trolling considering the context: "born is the king", in reference to the most authoritarian archetypal king in the human psyche, albeit dated... on the Ray Peat forum. Have to laugh at the irony.

It's a common theme in alternative types of communities, dissatisfaction of the mainstream authoritarianism/dogma leads one to the opposite e.g. right-wingers shifting away from the western liberal idea to conservative monarchist type, not realizing they still fall for another authoritarianism

 

[Explorer]

All science is based on faith. I learned that while getting a degree in science

Science is based on principle on discoveries by analysing common patterns, thus getting step closer to figuring out certain phenomenon e.g. everybody needs food, sleep, air and hydration and it has been observed by all organisms in whole existence thus it is a fundamental law that doesn't change, in same way in other areas such principles are discoverable and in turn this lets managing and structuring the world more efficiently for the maximum safety/stability/progress

Religion on other hand goes other way around - it first creates the assumption e.g. that the x god is The God and tries to find proof for it

 

[Perry Staltic]

I think he stated his issue is with the actual source material of the religion

His said he was raised as a Christian and that Christianity teaches the creator is a "vindictive, jealous, despot". So that shows either he was taught incorrectly, or he is unteachable

 

[Perry Staltic]

Science is based on principle on discoveries by analysing common patterns, thus getting step closer to figuring out certain phenomenon e.g. everybody needs food, sleep, air and hydration and it has been observed by all organisms in whole existence thus it is a fundamental law that doesn't change, in same way in other areas such principles are discoverable and in turn this lets managing and structuring the world more efficiently for the maximum safety/stability/progress

Religion on other hand goes other way around - it first creates the assumption e.g. that the x god is The God and tries to find proof for it

you don't get it. every scientific law is based on assumption at its foundational level. if you follow any law back to its first principle, so to speak, you will find it is based on assumption, not observation. That is because we don't see far more than we do see. I once asked my science professor what was the root law/principle undergirding something I was investigating. He said "we just assume that". That was when I realized all of science is built on conjecture

 

[davvid_1]

no it's not arrogance at all. It's conviction and belief. It's no different than you thinking your belief is better. if you were a devout Christian before you simply fell away from the faith. I'm ok with that. are you? well if so enjoy your choice and stop acting like you're incomplete without us joining you or agreeing with what you believe.

Personally I think it is slightly arrogant to say that, as what you’re saying is your religion is correct, 8999 are wrong, and non Christian’s wouldn’t understand. All those millions of people that have similar faith in their god wouldn’t understand?what I’m saying is perhaps they’re all correct to some degree and can offer valuable insights into human behaviour and tendencies.

And lol of course I’m ok with it I don’t care what religion you join, sorry if it came off otherwise, it’s just a discussion. I just wanted to engage in a historical debate as I don’t have the opportunity very often

And of course the creator isn’t always jealous and vindictive, there are many passages that show mercy and kindness, but there are too many passages showing what I said.

 

[davvid_1]

you don't get it. every scientific law is based on assumption at its foundational level. if you follow any law back to its first principle, so to speak, you will find it is based on assumption, not observation. That is because we don't see far more than we do see. I once asked my science professor what was the root law/principle undergirding something I was investigating. He said "we just assume that". That was when I realized all of science is built on conjecture

Hmm, but I can drop a ball countless times, measure it, and observe there is a force acting on the ball called gravity - an experiment.

What religion sometimes asks is for me to believe in a book written by dubious sources that past laws of physics-defying miracles were performed. And then I ask, why is only this book correct?

 

[Perry Staltic]

Hmm, but I can drop a ball countless times, measure it, and observe there is a force acting on the ball called gravity - an experiment.

What religion sometimes asks is for me to believe in a book written by dubious sources that past laws of physics-defying miracles were performed. And then I ask, why is only this book correct?

but you can't tell me what gravity is or what makes it work. going beyond the mere repeatability of a falling object moves into the realm of faith.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Personally I think it is slightly arrogant to say that, as what you’re saying is your religion is correct, 8999 are wrong, and non Christian’s wouldn’t understand. All those millions of people that have similar faith in their god wouldn’t understand?what I’m saying is perhaps they’re all correct to some degree and can offer valuable insights into human behaviour and tendencies.

you're just dabbling in relativism and trying to pass that off as absolute truth.

 

[davvid_1]

but you can't tell me what gravity is or what makes it work. going beyond the mere repeatability of a falling object moves into the realm of faith.

Of course we can, it’s the warping of space time by massive objects. I’ll guess you’ll follow up with saying that it’s just faith that space time is there. Well sure, but all our experiments and observations are consistent with the math - You cannot prove any of the miracles in the Bible by repeated experiment. That is the difference I’m trying to stress

 

[Perry Staltic]

Of course we can, it’s the warping of space time by massive objects. I’ll guess you’ll follow up with saying that it’s just faith that space time is there. Well sure, but all our experiments and observations are consistent with the math - You cannot prove any of the miracles in the Bible by repeated experiment. That is the difference I’m trying to stress

That's just an unproven hypothesis, ergo treating it as truth is faith. popular consensus is neither observation nor scientific proof. It's scientific arrogance to assume so much from so little.

 

[davvid_1]

That's just an unproven hypothesis, ergo treating it as truth is faith. popular consensus is neither observation nor scientific proof. It's scientific arrogance to assume so much from so little.

please explain how it's unproven? how would we launch a 10billion dollar telescope a million miles away on unproven hypotheses. its a hypothesis we accept as true because thousands of experiments have failed to show otherwise. science accepts something as true if repeated experiment confirms it. you may call it faith or whatever you want, but the reason we accept it is grounded in experiment. and id hardly say the cumulative work of great scientific discoveries, missions, experiments and explorations is "so little", what would that make the bible then?

 

[Perry Staltic]

please explain how it's unproven? how would we launch a 10billion dollar telescope a million miles away on unproven hypotheses. its a hypothesis we accept as true because thousands of experiments have failed to show otherwise. science accepts something as true if repeated experiment confirms it. you may call it faith or whatever you want, but the reason we accept it is grounded in experiment. and id hardly say the cumulative work of great scientific discoveries, missions, experiments and explorations is "so little", what would that make the bible then?

It hasn't been proven. show the evidence that it has. the reason we can launch satellites is because those laws of physics are well understood. there's no comparison between that and our understanding of what makes those laws work, which is nil. We just know they work.

 

[davvid_1]

i think you're missing the point. it doesnt matter if we have faith in space time or not if we know that the laws work. you claim that its all based on faith, but space time could be some arbitrary dimension and it wouldn't matter. we have EXPERIMENTED enough to know that there is very likely something there that behaves according to a set of proven equations. all I am saying is there is a distinct difference between the scientifically deduced "faith" we just went over above, and religious faith, which is is not based on experiment.

anyway i was more looking for a debate on historical relevance of biblical sources not the cosmos thanks for the discussion!

 

[Perry Staltic]

i think you're missing the point. it doesnt matter if we have faith in space time or not if we know that the laws work. you claim that its all based on faith, but space time could be some arbitrary dimension and it wouldn't matter. we have EXPERIMENTED enough to know that there is very likely something there that behaves according to a set of proven equations. all I am saying is there is a distinct difference between the scientifically deduced "faith" we just went over above, and religious faith, which is is not based on experiment.

anyway i was more looking for a debate on historical relevance of biblical sources not the cosmos thanks for the discussion!

"could" and "very likely" are not terms of certainty. therefore, you don't know why natural laws work the way they do, be it the word of God or some other mechanism. either choice is based on faith.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

my question is, is it not a slight arrogance for people of any religion to say this (not just you)

as a devout christian before, i came to realise that this story has happened many times before. i started looking at religion through the lens of history, and realised christianity is hardly unique - just another one of the 9000. when you realise this, its hard to see religions as much more than cults "created by the elite and powerful in times of huge gullibility", as ritchie put it.

put another way, there are over 9000 religions in the world, you guys simply believe in one more than me

@Rinse & rePeat i like to think that if there is a creator, and he does care about us, he is not the vindictive, jealous, despotic that the texts make him out to be, but rather one that we can create a personal relationship with. i have been turned off the inconsistent and sometimes fraudulent or awful practices and policies of the church, and think there would be absolutely need for any religion to mediate my relationship with this creator. wonder what you think?

I don't blame you for feeling this way Davvid_1, and I am disgusted with the "high and mighty" and "judgy" so called Christian's in the world. They make Christianity a "turn off". They are just more distractions from Satan.This is not what Jesus intended. True Christians are suppose to be servants of the world, not above everyone else. We aren't suppose to judge the world, but rather help and love others no matter where they are at, love the sinner, but hate the sin. If I hadn't had profound supernatural experiences with God at an early age, and occasional few others throughout my life, and the most brilliant pastor for the last 25 years, with his doctorates in theology and biology/science, continually proving the bible's credibility, I may be swayed to believe something else. I know what you mean about so many other religions being seemingly the same, which is a clever ploy for Satan to deceive the world. I don't operate on faith, but on proof and lots of questions, and God always answers them. 25 years ago when I was struggling to get through the Old Testiment with so much violence, I prayed to God and told him I was gonna stop reading the Bible, until he could explain to me why so many women and children are being killed in the books of the Bible I was reading, because it was not drawing me closer to Him, and quite the opposite. About a month later I was washing the dishes and an image of a baby in a crib came to the forefront of my my mind, almost like I could see this picture of the baby with my eyes, but not quite. I wondered why I was seeing this vision of a baby, forgetting I was doing dishes. Then a deep voice that wasn't mine said, "This is Hitler, could you kill this baby now?" It put in perspective why death was necessary, to protect the good people of the future. I could go on much more, but like I said, one cannot grasp a true working relationship with God unless one experiences it, and then there is no going back. I am sorry you have had such bad experiences with Christian churches, cause I have too. I always remember that Satan believes in God too and is sitting in church every morning. My pastor has said it many times, that 90% of people sitting in church are just "playing" church. So I just take 90% of what people say and do in church with a grain of salt and go about my merry way. I respect your intelligence and criticisms asking questions, and I hope I am answering some of them.

 

[Richiebogie]

@Ritchie The most totalitarian and murderous regimes of the 20th century were atheist.

When populations put Jesus first then human rights, freedom, justice, equality before the law etc follow.

Christianity is falling away in the West, and a lying totalitarian medical technocracy is attempting to take its place.

 

[Ritchie]

@Ritchie The most totalitarian and murderous regimes of the 20th century were atheist.

When populations put Jesus first then human rights, freedom, justice, equality before the law etc follow.

Christianity is falling away in the West, and a lying totalitarian medical technocracy is attempting to take its place.

That old jumping out of the frying pan into the fire rhetoric - You need some sort of authoritarianism so better the devil you know.. may as well be Jesus, the church and Christianity type thing.. it’s a better type of authority - present historical and current examples and so forth. All that talk is missing the point.
The entire Ray Peat philosophy is about stepping out of that paradigm.

 

[Kayaker]

That old jumping out of the frying pan into the fire rhetoric - You need some sort of authoritarianism so better the devil you know.. may as well be Jesus, the church and Christianity type thing.. it’s a better type of authority - present historical and current examples and so forth. All that talk is missing the point.
The entire Ray Peat philosophy is about stepping out of that paradigm.

From my understanding, self-government is promoted in the bible and globalism is villified, and we are supposed to surrender to God, and not a church or religion.

 

[Ritchie]

we are supposed to surrender to God, and not a church or religion.

Do you recognise the irony in this statement? God is the ultimate archetypal authority.
Who defines God? tells you what God wants from you, what his commandments are? How he wants you to live your life? what you must do in order to “surrender” to him? Who’s God are you even referring to? There are countless definitions and have been throughout history, different cultures, different times and so forth with different ideas about what he wants, how to please him or “surrender” to him.