Baking Soda Is A Potent Anti-inflammatory, May Treat Rheumatoid Arthritis (RA)

[Amazoniac]

aguilaroja, I want to let you know that I respect your opinion in spite of your questionable appearance.

Here is an example:

Orange Juice-Induced Hyperkalemia in a Diabetic Patient with Chronic Renal Failure

"Herein we report on a diabetic patient who developed life-threatening hyperkalemia after consuming large amounts of orange juice to treat hypoglycemia."

"A nurse told him to drink orange juice. Over the following 24 h the patient consumed ~1 gallon of orange juice. Hypoglycemia resolved, but the patient then complained of weakness."

"Elevated serum potassium levels are common in diabetic patients. Etiologies include chronic renal failure (as was present in our patient), hyporeninemic hypoaldosteronism, and the use of medications that decrease potassium excretion, such as potassium-sparing diuretics, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, heparin, and angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitors (our patient was taking lisinopril). Absolute or relative insulin deficiency will inhibit uptake of potassium by cells, thus decreasing tolerance to an acute potassium load (2). Moreover, hyperglycemia itself can result in hyperkalemia in patients with diabetes and hypoaldosteronism (3). Thus, administration of foods with a high sugar and potassium content to a diabetic patient with impaired potassium tolerance may raise serum potassium levels, resulting in severe hyperkalemia."

"As depicted in Table 1, fruit juices have widely varying potassium contents. Although we recognize that the development of hyperkalemia in our patient resulted from the extremely large amount of orange juice consumed (1 gallon contains ~7.6 g of potassium) in the face of impaired potassium tolerance, we believe it is unncessary and potentially dangerous to treat hypoglycemia with a juice that contains large amounts of potassium. We now use cranberry juice to treat symptomatic hypoglycemia in all diabetic patients with renal insufficiency at our hospital."​

Does that mean that it's a bad idea to start your day with some orange of the juices?
In the same way that someone in such case couldn't handle that much juice a day, the same applies to supplementing too much.

Since it's not good to mess up the digestion of a meal with bicarbonates, it's best to take them on empty stomach. If a person is trying to restore the proper electrolyte balance of the disturbed cells, I have with the difficulties imagining that a dose of sodium by itself is something desirable, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

I have taken up to 4 grams of potassium via potassium citrate in a 3 hour window, 2 grams, and then 2 grams 3 hours later. It was not the best feeling I would not advise it - however I survived and there were no heart issues that I could perceive or anything - mainly I just felt slowed down for the rest of the day. I would imagine this amount could be quite dangerous for someone in worse health. From experimenting with potassium bicarbonate / citrate / acetate supplementation for several years now I can say that I feel best on 2 grams potassium first thing in the morning. I used to dose 2 grams potassium morning and night, thinking a high Potassium to Sodium ratio over 5:1 would be better for my health. In the long run this did not agree with me, I feel it may have put too much stress on my kidneys. I prefer the acetate form - and it feels best when accompanied by around 1 gram of sodium either via salt or baking soda. Between a 1:1 and 2:1 Potassium:Sodium ratio is what agrees best with me, getting higher potassium than that and I just feel lethargic. Salt is scarce for most land animals - so I think arguing that they have a higher ratio of potassium is flawed - when they can get salt they will take plenty of it - just like we do.

As for taking straight potassium bicarbonate, I find the taste fairly revolting, where as straight sodium bicarbonate is pretty much tolerable. Potassium citrate and acetate do not have much taste at all.

I recently read this, which makes a decent argument for the importance of consuming the bulk of potassium in the early morning.

Rhythmic potassium transport regulates the circadian clock in human red blood cells
Rhythmic potassium transport regulates the circadian clock in human red blood cells

 

[Ras]

The study is explored in greater depth on Suppversity.

 

[Ras]

I wonder if sodium carbonate would have the same effect. It is more caustic and could therefore raise gastric pH and total alkalinity greater in smaller doses; the monohydrate is more soluble in water than bicarbonate.

 

[zewe]

Would that be an issue if taken hours away from meals? I'd hope that once it's absorbed the stomach acids get going again soon enough.

As a supplement, consuming a half-teaspoon of baking soda or more (depending on health conditions) thoroughly mixed in purified water daily should be done well away from eating, two hours or upon awakening, in order to not interfere with the necessary existing acid content of the stomach while food is being processed for digestion in the small intestines.

 

[LucH]

As a supplement, consuming a half-teaspoon of baking soda or more (depending on health conditions) thoroughly mixed in purified water daily should be done well away from eating, two hours or upon awakening, in order to not interfere with the necessary existing acid content of the stomach while food is being processed for digestion in the small intestines.

Exactly what I do, for 8 days, with pH measured at the end of the morning and at mid-day.
In order to reset polarization of membranes, not just to alcalinize.
If you can read into French, on "Mirzoune et Ciboulette"
Bicarbonate et inflammation - Mise au point
The effect of bicarbonate is due to (re)-polarization of M1 / M2 macrophages and to the increase of FOXP3 + CD4 + regulatory T cells (Tregs). These T cells regulate the immune response (hence the name "T regulatory cells" in English).
LucH

 

[Birdie]

I've just read the whole thread and a lot of good info to back up using baking soda. Thank you Haidut and all.

When we mix our baking soda with our morning orange juice, we try to put it in at the last minute so that we get the fizz.
Makes sense that if one waits too long, most of the CO2 is gone into the air.

 

[yerrag]

I've just read the whole thread and a lot of good info to back up using baking soda. Thank you Haidut and all.

When we mix our baking soda with our morning orange juice, we try to put it in at the last minute so that we get the fizz.
Makes sense that if one waits too long, most of the CO2 is gone into the air.

The fizz is from baking soda reacting with ascorbic acid, I believe, and the end product is sodium ascorbate and CO2. I don't know if ingesting CO2 is the same as ingesting bicarbonate, but if you intend to take in bicarbonate, you have to have enough baking soda that it isn't used up reacting with the ascorbic acid in the orange juice.

 

[Birdie]

The fizz is from baking soda reacting with ascorbic acid, I believe, and the end product is sodium ascorbate and CO2. I don't know if ingesting CO2 is the same as ingesting bicarbonate, but if you intend to take in bicarbonate, you have to have enough baking soda that it isn't used up reacting with the ascorbic acid in the orange juice.

Thank you! Going to put this by my husband who is a physicist.
I was just wondering about the formula for going to CO2 from orange juice a few minutes ago.
I only thought about the reaction between water and CO2 though. Yeah, something else in there!

 

[Amazoniac]

When we mix our baking soda with our morning orange juice, we try to put it in at the last minute so that we get the fizz.

Your oranges are probably too acid, some don't fizz at all.

HPLC Organic Acid Analysis in Different Citrus Juices under Reversed Phase Conditions

- Changes in Organic Acids and Sugars during Early Stages of Development of Acidic and Acidless Citrus Fruit

"Most of the studies on organic acid and sugar content were performed during fruit maturation of species such as orange, grapefruit, mandarin, and lemon (4-6). They showed that acidity, mainly due to citric acid, decreases during maturation of orange, grapefruit, and mandarin, whereas it remained constant in lemon. The total sugars increase throughout whatever the species. In contrast, only a small amount data were obtained before maturation. Acidity increases and becomes constant during the second stage of development, defined by Bain (7), while the total sugars increase (8-9). It is worth noting that there is very little information available on individual organic acids and sugars and their respective pattern of accumulation during fruit development (10-13). However, all citrus fruit does not follow this common behavior. In fact, some acidless varieties resulting from spontaneous mutations are characterized by a very low acidity and a lack of citric acid (14-17)."

Spoiler: Organic acids changes during development

"Titratable acidity of citrus juice is known to be due largely to citric acid (2). Citric acid is synthesized in the mitochondria of juice cells via the Krebs cycle and is stored in the vacuole (1). In acidic lemon, lime, and orange, citric acid accounted for 79, 71, and 45% of the seven detected organic acids, respectively. These percentages were lower than those reported in the literature, which were estimated on a limited number of organic acids (citric, malic, and quinic acids) (20, 21)."

"When plotting fructose versus citric acid concentrations, we have shown that the most acidic fruit (G1) were characterized by the highest citric acid concentration and the lowest fructose concentration (Figure 4)."

my husband who is a physicist

This bragging part was a bit unnecessary, no need to show off.
Here in Netherlands we already assume everyone has a degree in science, it's mandatory.

 

[yerrag]

Your oranges are probably too acid, some don't fizz at all.

HPLC Organic Acid Analysis in Different Citrus Juices under Reversed Phase Conditions

View attachment 11181​

- Changes in Organic Acids and Sugars during Early Stages of Development of Acidic and Acidless Citrus Fruit

"Most of the studies on organic acid and sugar content were performed during fruit maturation of species such as orange, grapefruit, mandarin, and lemon (4-6). They showed that acidity, mainly due to citric acid, decreases during maturation of orange, grapefruit, and mandarin, whereas it remained constant in lemon. The total sugars increase throughout whatever the species. In contrast, only a small amount data were obtained before maturation. Acidity increases and becomes constant during the second stage of development, defined by Bain (7), while the total sugars increase (8-9). It is worth noting that there is very little information available on individual organic acids and sugars and their respective pattern of accumulation during fruit development (10-13). However, all citrus fruit does not follow this common behavior. In fact, some acidless varieties resulting from spontaneous mutations are characterized by a very low acidity and a lack of citric acid (14-17)."

Spoiler: Organic acids changes during development

View attachment 11182

View attachment 11183

"Titratable acidity of citrus juice is known to be due largely to citric acid (2). Citric acid is synthesized in the mitochondria of juice cells via the Krebs cycle and is stored in the vacuole (1). In acidic lemon, lime, and orange, citric acid accounted for 79, 71, and 45% of the seven detected organic acids, respectively. These percentages were lower than those reported in the literature, which were estimated on a limited number of organic acids (citric, malic, and quinic acids) (20, 21)."

"When plotting fructose versus citric acid concentrations, we have shown that the most acidic fruit (G1) were characterized by the highest citric acid concentration and the lowest fructose concentration (Figure 4)."

View attachment 11185​

This bragging part was a bit unnecessary, no need to show off.
Here in Netherlands we already assume everyone has a degree in science, it's mandatory.

This is very good info Amazoniac! I can't believe how little ascorbic acid contributes to the acidity of citrus fruits, even that of sweet orange. I suppose the fizz came not only from baking soda reacting with ascorbic acid, but with citric acid, as well as the other acids.

This makes the case weak for getting large amounts of ascorbic acid from citrus fruits, even sweet oranges. It makes the case for avoiding them because of the high amount of citric acid. Perhaps you could get less citric acid from the acid-less varieties, but you also get much less ascorbic acid as well.

This also confirms my recent experience with drinking 2 glasses of our local variety of satsuma orange daily during its season. From using a urine pH test strip during the past month, I realized the juice has been lowering my urine pH greatly. I also saw my pH plummet taking 7 g of ascorbic acid each day. The pH improved when I changed to an ascorbate form. When I removed these from my daily intake, I saw relief from excessive urination and got my good sleep back. But @Janelle525 didn't experience much lowered pH taking about the same amount of ascorbic acid, so my experience doesn't speak for everyone.

To be clear, even without taking satsuma orange juice or ascorbic acid, my urine pH was also low, and this meant I have very low alkaline buffers from my condition. I had to ingest bicarbonates to assist me in getting my urine pH higher, and when I take my ascorbates (not just ascorbic acid), I still had to slightly increase my bicarbonate intake.

Since this thread is about baking soda, and to a reasonable extent, about bicarbonates (magnesium, potassium, not just sodium, although I'm not sure about calcium -haven't tried the calcium type), I find it very helpful to have urine pH test strips on hand to keep from taking too little (to be of no significant effect) and from taking too much (to prevent metabolic alkalosis) when using bicarbonates for supplementation.

 

[Amazoniac]

This is very good info Amazoniac! I can't believe how little ascorbic acid contributes to the acidity of citrus fruits, even that of sweet orange. I suppose the fizz came not only from baking soda reacting with ascorbic acid, but with citric acid, as well as the other acids.

This makes the case weak for getting large amounts of ascorbic acid from citrus fruits, even sweet oranges. It makes the case for avoiding them because of the high amount of citric acid. Perhaps you could get less citric acid from the acid-less varieties, but you also get much less ascorbic acid as well.

This also confirms my recent experience with drinking 2 glasses of our local variety of satsuma orange daily during its season. From using a urine pH test strip during the past month, I realized the juice has been lowering my urine pH greatly. I also saw my pH plummet taking 7 g of ascorbic acid each day. The pH improved when I changed to an ascorbate form. When I removed these from my daily intake, I saw relief from excessive urination and got my good sleep back. But @Janelle525 didn't experience much lowered pH taking about the same amount of ascorbic acid, so my experience doesn't speak for everyone.

To be clear, even without taking satsuma orange juice or ascorbic acid, my urine pH was also low, and this meant I have very low alkaline buffers from my condition. I had to ingest bicarbonates to assist me in getting my urine pH higher, and when I take my ascorbates (not just ascorbic acid), I still had to slightly increase my bicarbonate intake.

Since this thread is about baking soda, and to a reasonable extent, about bicarbonates (magnesium, potassium, not just sodium, although I'm not sure about calcium -haven't tried the calcium type), I find it very helpful to have urine pH test strips on hand to keep from taking too little (to be of no significant effect) and from taking too much (to prevent metabolic alkalosis) when using bicarbonates for supplementation.

I guess when they're bad for you, they will taste bad. The problem when you neutralize the acids is that you can tolerate higher amounts of undesirable ones, but this is probably a consequence of them being made safer, choline bitartrate and intravenous sodium lactate are examples.

But now we know why they're not called ascorbicus fruits.

 

[yerrag]

I guess when they're bad for you, they will taste bad. The problem when you neutralize the acids is that you can tolerate higher amounts of undesirable ones, but this is probably a consequence of them being made safer, choline bitartrate and intravenous sodium lactate are examples.

But now we know why they're not called ascorbicus fruits.

Did you just volunteer to develop ascorbicus fruits? Is next year too soon for you to send me a sampling?

 

[yerrag]

Your oranges are probably too acid, some don't fizz at all.

HPLC Organic Acid Analysis in Different Citrus Juices under Reversed Phase Conditions

View attachment 11181​

- Changes in Organic Acids and Sugars during Early Stages of Development of Acidic and Acidless Citrus Fruit

"Most of the studies on organic acid and sugar content were performed during fruit maturation of species such as orange, grapefruit, mandarin, and lemon (4-6). They showed that acidity, mainly due to citric acid, decreases during maturation of orange, grapefruit, and mandarin, whereas it remained constant in lemon. The total sugars increase throughout whatever the species. In contrast, only a small amount data were obtained before maturation. Acidity increases and becomes constant during the second stage of development, defined by Bain (7), while the total sugars increase (8-9). It is worth noting that there is very little information available on individual organic acids and sugars and their respective pattern of accumulation during fruit development (10-13). However, all citrus fruit does not follow this common behavior. In fact, some acidless varieties resulting from spontaneous mutations are characterized by a very low acidity and a lack of citric acid (14-17)."

Spoiler: Organic acids changes during development

View attachment 11182

View attachment 11183

"Titratable acidity of citrus juice is known to be due largely to citric acid (2). Citric acid is synthesized in the mitochondria of juice cells via the Krebs cycle and is stored in the vacuole (1). In acidic lemon, lime, and orange, citric acid accounted for 79, 71, and 45% of the seven detected organic acids, respectively. These percentages were lower than those reported in the literature, which were estimated on a limited number of organic acids (citric, malic, and quinic acids) (20, 21)."

"When plotting fructose versus citric acid concentrations, we have shown that the most acidic fruit (G1) were characterized by the highest citric acid concentration and the lowest fructose concentration (Figure 4)."

View attachment 11185​

This bragging part was a bit unnecessary, no need to show off.
Here in Netherlands we already assume everyone has a degree in science, it's mandatory.

With all these in mind, why do people believe that lemon has an alkalizing effect? Or is that a canard?

 

[LucH]

With all these in mind, why do people believe that lemon has an alkalizing effect? Or is that a canard?

acids like citrates are neutralized through respiration (water and CO2) what remains is alkali. But some people must care when they're under-vital (insufficient metabolism and bad elimination).
Edit: If you want a full explantion (in French):
Le citron est-il alcalinisant ?
http://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t161-citron-alcalinisant

 

[Amazoniac]

With all these in mind, why do people believe that lemon has an alkalizing effect? Or is that a canard?

Perhaps as the fruits ripen, the acids are allowed to react with minerals and most are found neutralized, and the minority left free is still enough to give its characteristic taste. But I guess they process them to be able to quantify. Example:

- Analysis of the organic acids of orange juice

The actual amount of citric acid and citrates in the juice samples was determined by the method of Pucher, Vickery, and Leavenworth (8). The sample was heated with H2SO4 to convert the combined citrates to free citric acid, and the citric acid was oxidized to pentabromacetone by KMnO4 in the presence of KBr. After extraction of the pentabromacetone with petroleum ether, the bromide ioni was liberated with Na2S, and subsequently titrated with standard AgNO3. The citric acid in the original sample was calculated from the titration.

- Citric acid - Wikipedia

Industrial-scale citric acid production first began in 1890 based on the Italian citrus fruit industry, where the juice was treated with hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide) to precipitate calcium citrate, which was isolated and converted back to the acid using diluted sulfuric acid.[10]

calcium citrate salt, from which citric acid is regenerated by treatment with sulfuric acid, as in the direct extraction from citrus fruit juice

--
- Calcium and Calcium Salts
- Calcirol - Liquid Vitamin D3

 

[yerrag]

acids like citrates are neutralized through respiration (water and CO2) what remains is alkali. But some people must care when they're under-vital (insufficient metabolism and bad elimination).
Edit: If you want a full explantion (in French):
Le citron est-il alcalinisant ?
http://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t161-citron-alcalinisant

Thanks for the link. It was easy to read going through Google Translate.

For whatever reason, my blood/ecf gets acidic easily with citrus fruits. At least for the sour oranges I had been drinking as juice, it was making my extracellular fluids acidic as tested from my urine pH.

I had always believed that citrus fruits, even if acidic, would be alkalinic, as that is what has always been said about them in mainstream circles - naturopathic or conventional. It turns out this belief needs to be qualified. People who have low alkaline reserves would be taking in large quantities of citrus fruits would not even know what hit them. They, like me, would be thinking they're getting better while in reality their body fluids are getting acidic. They would feel worse but think otherwise, and if they happen to think they're worse off, they might even consider that a healing crisis and keep on with the illusion.

I had been waking up 4x each night to urinate for a year, and just couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. Without good sleep, I was never going to get any better. Thankfully, I was lucky to get hold of urine pH test strips, and came to the realization how much harmful drinking "healthful" citrus juices are to me (To be fair, it's not just the citrus juices. Also supplementation - particularly magnesium chloride, and ascorbic acid).

Even if people have high alkaline buffers, such that their body fluid pH won't turn acidic from drinking citrus juices or eating citrus fruits. these citrus fruits are still making the liver and kidneys do additional work in maintaining acid-base balance. What really is the benefit in citrus fruits if they have more much more citric acid than ascorbic acid? Is the acid load worth the puny amount of ascorbic acid in them? If the other benefit is the fructose content, why not just go with non-citrus fruits? And if you get the acid-less citrus fruit varieties, there hardly is any ascorbic acid left in them, so why bother with them? Why not just supplement with synthetic ascorbic acid, or synthetic ascorbates?

Citric acid is not good at all. It increases excretion of calcium in urine. Right @Mito?

 

[Mito]

Citric acid is not good at all. It increases excretion of calcium in urine. Right @Mito?

“Citric acid itself causes you to lose calcium in your urine. Lactate is another popular supplement. All of those have their anti-calcification effects, causing you to lose calcium or misplace it." KMUD: Hair Loss, Inflammation and Osteoporosis (2012)

 

[yerrag]

“Citric acid itself causes you to lose calcium in your urine. Lactate is another popular supplement. All of those have their anti-calcification effects, causing you to lose calcium or misplace it." KMUD: Hair Loss, Inflammation and Osteoporosis (2012)

Thanks mito.

Why is it that only calcium being lost in the urine is a concern? Doesn't citric acid cause magnesium, or potassium, or sodium to be lost in urine as well? Can't citric acid also
become the citrate salt of magnesium, potassium, and sodium as well as of calcium? But why is calcium being singled out?

Is it because calcium in urine could lead to kidney or bladder stones?

Or is it because calcium is the cation that is easily made available from bone resorption, a property that can't be said of magnesium or potassium or sodium? That when calcium gets inside the cell and doesn't come out (because of the lack of carbon dioxide production from faulty metabolism), it will accumulate over time (leading to calcification) because when the blood is low in calcium, the bone will readily supply calcium even when diet is low in calcium, thus there is a continual supply of calcium that lends easily to calcification?

 

[Mito]

Thanks mito.

Why is it that only calcium being lost in the urine is a concern? Doesn't citric acid cause magnesium, or potassium, or sodium to be lost in urine as well? Can't citric acid also
become the citrate salt of magnesium, potassium, and sodium as well as of calcium? But why is calcium being singled out?

Is it because calcium in urine could lead to kidney or bladder stones?

Or is it because calcium is the cation that is easily made available from bone resorption, a property that can't be said of magnesium or potassium or sodium? That when calcium gets inside the cell and doesn't come out (because of the lack of carbon dioxide production from faulty metabolism), it will accumulate over time (leading to calcification) because when the blood is low in calcium, the bone will readily supply calcium even when diet is low in calcium, thus there is a continual supply of calcium that lends easily to calcification?

Ray was speeking specifically about calcium supplementation with calcium citrate. Here is a bit more of the conversation:

RP: Yeah. There’s been a lot of publicity in the last few months about calcium supplements not being very helpful, and the most popular form of calcium supplement medically has been either calcium gluconate or calcium…I guess gluconate is probably the most popular…

HD: Or citrate.

RP: Citrate, yeah. Citric acid itself causes you to lose calcium in your urine. Lactate is another popular supplement. All of those have their anti-calcification effects, causing you to lose calcium or misplace it.

HD: And here they advertise that calcium citrate is the only observable form for menopausal women, and you’re saying that it actually inhibits some of the absorption of the calcium?

RP: It activates the loss of calcium in urine, where carbonate…it isn’t quite as soluble if you don’t have a lot of acid, but eventually, all the way down to your intestine, it has the chance to absorb, so it’s a very effective, but safe supplement, because the carbonic acid…the carbon dioxide is the form that stimulates bone formation rather than breaking down the bone.

HD: And a really easy way to get an adequate level if you don’t eat dairy, or drink milk, or eat cheese is to do eggshell powder for calcium carbonate. Like where a quart of milk has about 1000mg of calcium, am I correct, Dr. Peat?

RP: Yeah, 1000 or 1200.