AIP Works When Peat Diet Doesn't, Why?

[Ryan]

I want to clarify, eating "peatarian" has reversed many issues I had with the AIP and Paleo diet (energy, happiness, satiety, weight issues to name a few). I would much rather continue eating the way I am now than reverting back to AIP.

Now despite the progress, my peat diet has actually exacerbated one health issue I had corrected with AIP: diet induced joint pain. If I eat grains, beans, dairy, and maybe other foods (grains and beans are the worst) i'm certain to suffer from what feels like tendinitis in both knees/hip flexors/fingers/wrists/ankles ect. Eating a low glycemic, heavy vegetable diet and antioxidant diet helped to reverse the pain. I did dumb things in my early 20s to put on weight (prior to paleo or peat) like consuming raw oats and large burritos filled with whole grains and beans on a daily basis. It was around this time my symptoms originally manifested. I now understand why

So i'd gladly take personal advice, but i'm also interested in your theories and opinions on: why would AIP help to fix joint pain when ray peat has made it worse? Is the mechanism an increase in stress hormones? AIP surely can't be the only way to fix what seems like a malfunctioning hyperactive immune system.

My theories from reading all over the forums (and considering my past) point to digestive system/endotoxin/stomach bacteria. But I stumble upon more and more theories in random threads every day, so I thought i'd ask specifically. (recently read about the link between liver/protein digestion and food intolerance)

Please help me get rid of the joint pain. I really enjoy lifting weights and I can't do that with peat eating like I could on AIP. Any thoughts?

 

[mujuro]

What were you eating when you were eating a la Peat?

 

[Ryan]

Still eating peat, just really trying to keep inflammation down using supplements like pregnenelone, vit e and k, caffeine, aspirin, sugar, gelatin etc, but I wish I didn't have to rely on so many supplements to make the diet pain free

I don't think the peat diet is the real issue here either. The real issue is my compromised immune function and maybe digestive health (developed in my early 20s); many people can tolerate the foods that I cannot. My goal is to find out the mechanism that creates the pain and fix it, while adhering to a peaty diet. What did AIP fix that peat is currently not? and how can I supplement the peat diet to permanently fix the issue?

My current peaty diet consists of:
2 quarts milk
1 quart juice (usually oj, sometimes apple or grape)
~1 cup of sugar
Fruits like cherries, dates, melons, grapes, apples, pears (sometimes cooked)
cheese
protein (usually eggs, sometimes meat)
Weekly oysters and chicken liver
Great lakes gelatin
1-2 potatoes daily
butter, sour cream, salt

I wish I could do the carrot, but I recently got braces and had to stop. I just picked up charcoal today actually, too early to tell if that will help

 

[Simba1992]

Hello Ryan,
I have had very much the same experience. AIP helped my RA at first then it really messed up my metabolism. Peating brought energy and normal body temp but didn't help with the joint pain. Have now stopped with all dairy products and gluten. Seems to be helping.

 

[oriana]

Thanks for this interesting thread.

I first tried working out my wacky thyroid and arthritis via the AIP diet. I think all those early cuts (grains, nuts, seeds, milk, etc) were VERY helpful. I actually felt really good with AIP and didn't stay with it long enough to kind of run to the end of its benefits.

Peat's work was just SO vastly much deeper and more sound and made so much more sense, linking together things that hadn't made sense before. I wanted to try all his suggestions right away and so when I switched from AIP to more Peat principles and substances I foolishly started in with milk and sugar (OJ, fruit, white sugar, etc) in one fell swoop. I had the worst arthritis episode of my life including tons of swelling and being stuck in bed for several weeks.

I still don't know exactly what triggered that (though when I wrote to Ray he gave me a few very interesting answers, first when I asked about milk as a trigger (also here answer about progesterone I asked):

"Many years ago someone noticed an antigenic overlap of lactobacilli with joint tissue, and suggested that it could explain the high incidence of rheumatoid arthritis during women’s fertile years. Another person noticed an overlap of thyroglobulin with joint tissue. Maybe the milk increased the growth of that kind of bacteria. I think the already increased circulation in your thyroid means that progesterone won’t increase its activity. Have you used a little olive oil on your skin to make it easier to spread? Covering your whole leg would increase the effect on your ankle. Is there enough sugar in your diet? Have you tried breathing in a bag occasionally, to increase your CO2?"

Also maybe of interest was his answer to my question about so-called "auto-immunity":

Oriana:
"How can we know what other substances/organisms/bits of protein chain might also cross react? How do such homologies arise? I really like your perspective that the immune system isn't confused "attacking itself" and so on that view how do you understand how there "just happen" to be these homologous amino acid sequences between, say, my TPO proteins and some from a lactobacillus? If this overlap is at the level of generality on which all organisms use proteins made of amino acid sequences, then it's not interesting, but if it is more specific-- which apparently it is-- then the match it seems quite random unless there is some kind of complicated co-evolution happening?"


RP: "There are lots of areas of similar amino acid sequences in proteins of microorganisms and animals, that are important for shaping the protein and making it fit into its normal place in the cell. Even slight “denaturation” of a protein can expose those areas, so stress, changing normal relationships, can make things antigenic. Someone found that an animal’s own cartilage, normally not antigenic, became antigenic after the cartilage was twisted. Energy depletion of a tissue makes it very susceptible to having its antigenic regions exposed; hypothyroidism, and high estrogen, make tissues swell; our “immune system” helps to correct the damage, removing things that are seriously disrupted. Progesterone and pregnenolone have a stabilizing effect, supported by thyroid and CO2. When the damaged tissues are restored, the antibodies will gradually disappear. Well cooked mushrooms and bamboo shoots are probably more effective than carrots. Small amounts of antibiotics, flowers of sulfur, and aspirin, and bacteriophage can help by reducing bacteria in the small intestine."


What questions remain for me around AIP/Keto vs. Peat:

I understand Peat's answer to low carb, but I still have questions about why ketosis or close to it does seem so helpful in neurological conditions, for example.

Like what is Terry Wahls doing that is working so well? Seems well documented that Ketosis helps epilepsy, etc.

It seems like low-carb/low-fat regimes-- the "winter" and "summer" human diet is how I think of them-- each have particular benefit even if summer is where your body is happiest.

I'm still having quite a lot of arthritis and am considering cutting milk and cheese and going back to eating eggshells. It's not a nice thought since I sure do love having milk in my diet (and I rely on it a lot having cut so many other foods).

 

[Blossom]

Thanks for this interesting thread.

I first tried working out my wacky thyroid and arthritis via the AIP diet. I think all those early cuts (grains, nuts, seeds, milk, etc) were VERY helpful. I actually felt really good with AIP and didn't stay with it long enough to kind of run to the end of its benefits.

Peat's work was just SO vastly much deeper and more sound and made so much more sense, linking together things that hadn't made sense before. I wanted to try all his suggestions right away and so when I switched from AIP to more Peat principles and substances I foolishly started in with milk and sugar (OJ, fruit, white sugar, etc) in one fell swoop. I had the worst arthritis episode of my life including tons of swelling and being stuck in bed for several weeks.

I still don't know exactly what triggered that (though when I wrote to Ray he gave me a few very interesting answers, first when I asked about milk as a trigger (also here answer about progesterone I asked):

"Many years ago someone noticed an antigenic overlap of lactobacilli with joint tissue, and suggested that it could explain the high incidence of rheumatoid arthritis during women’s fertile years. Another person noticed an overlap of thyroglobulin with joint tissue. Maybe the milk increased the growth of that kind of bacteria. I think the already increased circulation in your thyroid means that progesterone won’t increase its activity. Have you used a little olive oil on your skin to make it easier to spread? Covering your whole leg would increase the effect on your ankle. Is there enough sugar in your diet? Have you tried breathing in a bag occasionally, to increase your CO2?"

Also maybe of interest was his answer to my question about so-called "auto-immunity":

Oriana:
"How can we know what other substances/organisms/bits of protein chain might also cross react? How do such homologies arise? I really like your perspective that the immune system isn't confused "attacking itself" and so on that view how do you understand how there "just happen" to be these homologous amino acid sequences between, say, my TPO proteins and some from a lactobacillus? If this overlap is at the level of generality on which all organisms use proteins made of amino acid sequences, then it's not interesting, but if it is more specific-- which apparently it is-- then the match it seems quite random unless there is some kind of complicated co-evolution happening?"


RP: "There are lots of areas of similar amino acid sequences in proteins of microorganisms and animals, that are important for shaping the protein and making it fit into its normal place in the cell. Even slight “denaturation” of a protein can expose those areas, so stress, changing normal relationships, can make things antigenic. Someone found that an animal’s own cartilage, normally not antigenic, became antigenic after the cartilage was twisted. Energy depletion of a tissue makes it very susceptible to having its antigenic regions exposed; hypothyroidism, and high estrogen, make tissues swell; our “immune system” helps to correct the damage, removing things that are seriously disrupted. Progesterone and pregnenolone have a stabilizing effect, supported by thyroid and CO2. When the damaged tissues are restored, the antibodies will gradually disappear. Well cooked mushrooms and bamboo shoots are probably more effective than carrots. Small amounts of antibiotics, flowers of sulfur, and aspirin, and bacteriophage can help by reducing bacteria in the small intestine."


What questions remain for me around AIP/Keto vs. Peat:

I understand Peat's answer to low carb, but I still have questions about why ketosis or close to it does seem so helpful in neurological conditions, for example.

Like what is Terry Wahls doing that is working so well? Seems well documented that Ketosis helps epilepsy, etc.

It seems like low-carb/low-fat regimes-- the "winter" and "summer" human diet is how I think of them-- each have particular benefit even if summer is where your body is happiest.

I'm still having quite a lot of arthritis and am considering cutting milk and cheese and going back to eating eggshells. It's not a nice thought since I sure do love having milk in my diet (and I rely on it a lot having cut so many other foods).

Do you mind if we include this in the email depository if it's not already there?

 

[oriana]

Thanks, Blossom! Yes, I've been meaning to add these. I'll add the entire conversations to the depository.

 

[Blossom]

Thanks, Blossom! Yes, I've been meaning to add these. I'll add the entire conversations to the depository.

Thank you!

 

[Spokey]

Sounds like AIP promotes increases in stress hormones that are initially anti-inflammatory. In a sense it's like getting course of cortisol shot, you feel better, but it doesn't end well.

 

[Simba1992]

Sounds like AIP promotes increases in stress hormones that are initially anti-inflammatory. In a sense it's like getting course of cortisol shot, you feel better, but it doesn't end well.

That's how it goes !

 

[benaoao]

The issue with the Peat diet / this forum way of approaching health are boldened. Drop them all and include more of the foods that suit you and forget about whatever echo chamber preaches. Take good ideas that make sense with how you feel from all across different diets. No one is living your life and knows what’s adapted and what will make you feel better.

Again, everything in bold > drop that, then reassess one by one.

Still eating peat, just really trying to keep inflammation down using supplements like pregnenelone, vit e and k, caffeine, aspirin, sugar, gelatin etc, but I wish I didn't have to rely on so many supplements to make the diet pain free

I don't think the peat diet is the real issue here either. The real issue is my compromised immune function and maybe digestive health (developed in my early 20s); many people can tolerate the foods that I cannot. My goal is to find out the mechanism that creates the pain and fix it, while adhering to a peaty diet. What did AIP fix that peat is currently not? and how can I supplement the peat diet to permanently fix the issue?

My current peaty diet consists of:
2 quarts milk
1 quart juice (usually oj, sometimes apple or grape)
~1 cup of sugar
Fruits like cherries, dates, melons, grapes, apples, pears (sometimes cooked)
cheese
protein (usually eggs, sometimes meat)
Weekly oysters and chicken liver
Great lakes gelatin
1-2 potatoes daily
butter, sour cream, salt

I wish I could do the carrot, but I recently got braces and had to stop. I just picked up charcoal today actually, too early to tell if that will help

Keep sugar and arachidonic acid low for a bit. Fruit I hesitated but it looks like you’re having a bunch of those everyday. If that was your weekly supply, disregard.

 

[Mito]

What questions remain for me around AIP/Keto vs. Peat:

I understand Peat's answer to low carb, but I still have questions about why ketosis or close to it does seem so helpful in neurological conditions, for example.

The brain’s main fuel source is glucose. In many neurological conditions the person’s brain may have some problem metabolizing glucose properly so the brain doesn’t get the benefits of carbohydrate energy metabolism like carbon dioxide and ATP. Keytone’s are an alternate fuel source for the brain so carbohydrate energy metabolism is not needed. Ideally you probably want to fix the carbohydrate energy metabolism if you can figure out why it’s not working.

One reason carbohydrate energy metabolism may not be working optimally is a thiamine deficiency.

 

[tca300]

Ray recommends fruit juice, not whole fruits. Pears are anti - thyroid. Potatoes contain glycoalkaloid poisons, and are wonderful food for bacteria, they aren't something Ray sees as a good food choice when better foods can be chosen. You aren't eating a good fiber like carrots or cooked mushrooms. As king amazon has rePEATedly mentioned, b vitamins are depleted rapidly through carbohydrate metabolism. Eating empty calories, on top of plain caffeine instead of coffee, and using supplements that boost the metabolism is asking for trouble. Refined sugar should be limited to those who are eating LOTS of nutritious foods ( milk, liver, shellfish, eggs ), and even then, maybe a little in coffee or through ice cream.

 

[biffbelvin]

Sounds like AIP promotes increases in stress hormones that are initially anti-inflammatory. In a sense it's like getting course of cortisol shot, you feel better, but it doesn't end well.

I'll add a +1 to this.

Other users on this forum have reported joint paint and they suspected it was due to them lowering cortisol/estrogen too much. They'd gone too far the other way and their body was essentially lacking it's natural painkillers. I don't recall seeing these posts supported with test data however, so would be worth taking this information with a pinch of salt.

I've suffered with joint/muscle pain since my early twenties. I put this down to working full-time at a desk, and spending the majority of my leisure time at a computer/on a sofa. Unlike a lot of people of my generation, I was incredibly sedentary in my youth (what's up World of Warcraft), with my only exercise coming from cycling (to and from school/college/work).

At 28 I'm finally coming out of it, spending more days out of pain than not.

The most pivotal intervention for me has been daily exercise. I have a routine worked out with a long/short version, depending on how fatigued i am that day. I also swim twice a week and take a pilates class once a week (always good to have an instructor who can inform you of any dysfunctional movement patterns).

I would recommend looking into Dr. Evan Osar, particularly his work on the TPC (thoraco-pelvic cylinder). He has a monumental amount of instructive videos online for correcting dysfunctional movement patterns. He also pushes the idea of using breath as a means to promote correct posture/movement patterns. I'm a firm believer that better breathing habits will improve respiration and oxidative metabolism more than any dietary intervention, and would attribute a lot of my improvements from physical exercise to the improvements in my cardiovascular health.

I've attached my routine for further reference, if you'd like something to start with. Please forgive the odd notes as these are cues intended for myself.

 

[Ryan]

Thanks guys for all the responses, I have a lot to consider here. It seems like I should prioritize nutrition over refined sugars, which in hindsight should have been obvious. I don't falter when it comes to oysters, meat and milk, but I skimp on liver a lot; which may contribute to a B deficiency. So I think for now, i'll cut simple sugar in half and replace it with nutritious foods and keep liver regular. I'm also going to look into mushrooms to replace what I would get with a carrot. (Mushrooms are nice and soft for my braces)

I'm a little hesitant to cut a lot of supplements, because they have only helped as I have slowly added each one over the past 7 months. My pain usually points back to a digestive issue, and considering most of the immune function is in the gut, it makes sense.

Example: When I began this diet, I couldn't tolerate the whole milk I was buying from the store. I switched to lactose free and saw improvement in the joint pain. But unexpectedly, when I switched to lower fat 1%/skim I saw even more improvement. Also, leafy greens have always helped me, I'm thinking their micro-nutrition to macro-nutrition ratio makes them easy to assimilate and nutritionally rich. It all sounds like digestion right? Considering Haidut's posts and Oriana's email correspondence regarding the microbiome and "immunity", the pieces are slowly falling together.

+1 for WoW, biffbelvin, definitely wasn't getting enough sun as a kid haha

 

[Blossom]

Sounds like AIP promotes increases in stress hormones that are initially anti-inflammatory. In a sense it's like getting course of cortisol shot, you feel better, but it doesn't end well.

That's exactly what I was thinking. It's was like being on prednisone until the crash.

 

[biffbelvin]

Thanks guys for all the responses, I have a lot to consider here. It seems like I should prioritize nutrition over refined sugars, which in hindsight should have been obvious. I don't falter when it comes to oysters, meat and milk, but I skimp on liver a lot; which may contribute to a B deficiency. So I think for now, i'll cut simple sugar in half and replace it with nutritious foods and keep liver regular. I'm also going to look into mushrooms to replace what I would get with a carrot. (Mushrooms are nice and soft for my braces)

------

+1 for WoW, biffbelvin, definitely wasn't getting enough sun as a kid haha

I know everyone here is recommmending cutting back on the supplements, but I've found Haidut's Energin to be quite useful with sugar metabolism. I use very small doses (1-2 drops) with high sugar meals or a glass of OJ and I have a much more steady (i.e. healthy) reaction.

I'm not sure if you're the same, but the one advantage to being a former wow addict is that i'm pretty much immune to addictive mechanisms in games these days. The last game I played was fallout 4, and I was starting to get involved with the crafting/settlement side of it. When I realized how excited I was at finding a roll of duct tape I had an 'aha' moment and stuck to the storyline.

 

[Ryan]

I know everyone here is recommmending cutting back on the supplements, but I've found Haidut's Energin to be quite useful with sugar metabolism. I use very small doses (1-2 drops) with high sugar meals or a glass of OJ and I have a much more steady (i.e. healthy) reaction.

I'm not sure if you're the same, but the one advantage to being a former wow addict is that i'm pretty much immune to addictive mechanisms in games these days. The last game I played was fallout 4, and I was starting to get involved with the crafting/settlement side of it. When I realized how excited I was at finding a roll of duct tape I had an 'aha' moment and stuck to the storyline.

Thanks, i'll write that down and consider that for the future. ATM, I'm cutting most supps and sticking to the ones that are supposed to clean the liver which may help with sugar metabolism too. I don't want to overload with so many at once, and if something ends up working, i'll never know which one was responsible!!

I couldn't agree more about the games, I still play but I stick to the story driven games. The addictive ones boil down to a numbers game disguised as a fantasy experience. Why spend months collecting artificial items for an artificial status, when story games offer an immersive getaway at a fraction of the time; like a good movie/show/book. Looking forward to rdr 2 :)

 

[mmb82]

Have you ever gotten blood tests for iron and copper status? It may be a stretch, but if you are looking for additional ideas about what may be causing your joint pain besides general inflammation, I can suggest getting the following blood tests, though they will cost you some $$, probably close to $200 total for all of them.

Iron Panel:
- Serum Iron
- Iron Saturation
- Ferritin

Zinc/Copper Panel
- Zinc
- Copper
- Ceruloplasmin

I only mention this because joint pain is often associated with high amounts of "free" copper and/or iron. If a heavy vegetable, low grain, high antioxidant diet helped, it may have been doing so by reducing the effects of iron or copper overload.

Like I said, just a thought if you are desperate for additional places to focus your energy instead of an anti-inflammatory diet. The downside is that it costs money to get the lab tests.

 

[Ryan]

Thanks for the advice, i'll likely wait to do that because of cost and I suspect that may not be the issue. I did recently get tested for both H pylori and celiac and both came back negative. (Years ago I did have H pylori, went on 2 rounds of antibiotics, I suspect the bug did some damage)

The reason I suspect zinc and copper may not be the issue is the reactive nature of my symptoms. I can lay off dairy/grains/beans for awhile, eliminations found in AIP, and my joint pain will be at ~30% relative to the pain I would get consuming those foods. I was also likely consuming more copper and zinc on AIP as well.

BUT I suppose if excess free copper and zinc symptoms are masked by the cortisol surge that AIP would give me, maybe it is a potential issue I shouldn't write off. But the correlation in milk, cheese, grain, bean consumption and joint pain is strong.

I didn't always have these intolerances which is giving me hope on my hunt to fix what seems like a potentially reversible immune dysfunction I developed later in life.