Chronic Serotonin Toxicity? Need A Help!

[goodandevil]

Thank you! I hope it will help somehow. I was looking for probiotics only with Bifidobacterium bacteria but I cannot find any in my country, so I think I'm obliged to give up on them... I don't want to take a risk and make it worse.
Lady from drugstore recommended me Buy ABOCA COLILEN irritable bowel syndrome 96 capsules in pharmacy - maybe it could be a good replacement for probiotics (also quite expensive), what do you think?
Also, I've been wondering for a long time, is it good to deplete serotonin totally? How is it possible that all mental medications affect on serotonin (by increasing it) and reduce anxiety by that and all of you are opponents of serotonin (I read some articles by Ray Peat but I'm still curious)? I know that I could be somehow sensitive to serotonin uptake (even excess tryptophan made me sick) but I have lower serotonin in blood than normal levels, so some time ago I wondered maybe anxiety is induced by those low levels... Maybe SSRI somehow blocked my receptors and depleted serotonin from blood? And I think there's something with my metabolism, because I have excess tryptophan and too low serotonin in serum. Could you please explain me this somehow? Every psychiatrist in my country would prescribed me SSRI for my symptoms, so it's really interesting for me how it works and why serotonin is so bad if it's called "happy hormone" - and I can see that you have a lot of knowledge about that. :)
I was also wondering about dopamine deficiency (low motivation, somnolence) caused by SS, but it's just my conjecture and I only read articles about that... I wish I had a chance to talk with someone with a knowledge about that because my docs are helpless.


So should I discontinued Omega 3? It's sometimes hard to me to control my meals because I buy lunches in my work... I think I should start cooking by myself, buy goat milk and coconut oil. My dietitian suspects that I have leaky intestinal syndrome, maybe everything is connected somehow and I should not eat a lot of things. Thank you! You all have great advises.

Parathyroid (pth) should be tested because ray says that can be responsible for hypercalcemia, he told me that and cortisol can raise serun calcium.

 

[damngoodcoffee]

So should I discontinued Omega 3?

Most people here would probably say yes, stop taking it.
Ray Peat is certainly not a fan.

 

[Constatine]

Thank you! I hope it will help somehow. I was looking for probiotics only with Bifidobacterium bacteria but I cannot find any in my country, so I think I'm obliged to give up on them... I don't want to take a risk and make it worse.
Lady from drugstore recommended me Buy ABOCA COLILEN irritable bowel syndrome 96 capsules in pharmacy - maybe it could be a good replacement for probiotics (also quite expensive), what do you think?
Also, I've been wondering for a long time, is it good to deplete serotonin totally? How is it possible that all mental medications affect on serotonin (by increasing it) and reduce anxiety by that and all of you are opponents of serotonin (I read some articles by Ray Peat but I'm still curious)? I know that I could be somehow sensitive to serotonin uptake (even excess tryptophan made me sick) but I have lower serotonin in blood than normal levels, so some time ago I wondered maybe anxiety is induced by those low levels... Maybe SSRI somehow blocked my receptors and depleted serotonin from blood? And I think there's something with my metabolism, because I have excess tryptophan and too low serotonin in serum. Could you please explain me this somehow? Every psychiatrist in my country would prescribed me SSRI for my symptoms, so it's really interesting for me how it works and why serotonin is so bad if it's called "happy hormone" - and I can see that you have a lot of knowledge about that. :)
I was also wondering about dopamine deficiency (low motivation, somnolence) caused by SS, but it's just my conjecture and I only read articles about that... I wish I had a chance to talk with someone with a knowledge about that because my docs are helpless.

The product is essentially chamomile, lemon balm, aloe vera, and resins. These are generally good for the intestines except aloe vera might temporarily increase intestinal leakiness. Chamomile and lemon balm are both very anti-bacterial and can help with intestinal infections and ulcers. Though chamomile might have a slight anti-motility effect. Its a decent product but I do think you can benefit from taking each ingredient individually in the form of tea or what not. Its more cost effective and probably a higher dose of polyphenols and what not. Also you can see how you react to each ingredient that way.
Regarding serotonin most SSRI's typically enhance neurosteroid profiles. Their antidepressant effects are not necessarily from increased serotonin, though their zombifying effects definitely are. Serotonin is quite toxic to the mitochondria and inhibits proper energy metabolism when too high. Though serotonin is not by any means "bad" and has many important functions. In the brain serotonin is important for aversion behaviors- aversion learning (trauma), aggression, behavioral inhibition, and behavioral repetition. It improves survival rates in hostile situations and serotonin antagonism in such situations will undo learned aversion behavior and often lead to harm. It also reduces awareness mostly in a way that protects the ego but also it dulls sensory perception in general. This is why people who take LSD are suddenly extremely aware and have heightened perception yet this awareness is not necessarily a good thing (for an example it can make one aware of their own mortality or what not). Serotonin generally acts in ways that lead to self preservation via behavioral or sensory inhibition. Very high serotonin can lead to feelings of doom as is seen in serotonin syndrome. Its reputation as the happy hormone is due to its effects on sensory and behavioral inhibition. Serotonin in some brain regions really does lead to a better mental state by essentially inhibiting the activity of the region but serotonin by itself is not responsible for a feel good mood. Low serum serotonin is not a sign of low brain serotonin. A very small percent of the body's serotonin is used as a neurotransmitter. A sign of aging is decreased palate serotonin and increased mid brain serotonin.
Endotoxin can damage dopaminergic neurons and its effects are typically amplified by serotonin but idk if serotonin syndrome is now causing low dopamine. My guess is probably. Serotonin syndrome does generally damage the brain.

 

[ginny-red]

The product is essentially chamomile, lemon balm, aloe vera, and resins. These are generally good for the intestines except aloe vera might temporarily increase intestinal leakiness. Chamomile and lemon balm are both very anti-bacterial and can help with intestinal infections and ulcers. Though chamomile might have a slight anti-motility effect. Its a decent product but I do think you can benefit from taking each ingredient individually in the form of tea or what not. Its more cost effective and probably a higher dose of polyphenols and what not. Also you can see how you react to each ingredient that way.
Regarding serotonin most SSRI's typically enhance neurosteroid profiles. Their antidepressant effects are not necessarily from increased serotonin, though their zombifying effects definitely are. Serotonin is quite toxic to the mitochondria and inhibits proper energy metabolism when too high. Though serotonin is not by any means "bad" and has many important functions. In the brain serotonin is important for aversion behaviors- aversion learning (trauma), aggression, behavioral inhibition, and behavioral repetition. It improves survival rates in hostile situations and serotonin antagonism in such situations will undo learned aversion behavior and often lead to harm. Serotonin generally acts in ways that lead to self preservation via behavioral or sensory inhibition. Very high serotonin can lead to feelings of doom as is seen in serotonin syndrome. Its reputation as the happy hormone is due to its effects on sensory and behavioral inhibition. Serotonin in some brain regions really does lead to a better mental state by essentially inhibiting the activity of the region but serotonin by itself is not responsible for a feel good mood. Low serum serotonin is not a sign of low brain serotonin. A very small percent of the body's serotonin is used as a neurotransmitter. A sign of aging is decreased palate serotonin and increased mid brain serotonin.
Endotoxin can damage dopaminergic neurons and its effects are typically amplified by serotonin but idk if serotonin syndrome is now causing low dopamine. My guess is probably. Serotonin syndrome does generally damage the brain.

Thank you for a great reply! It’s kinda interesting that too high serotonin causes anxiety and SSRIs are mostly presribed for anxiety disorders.
Today my headache is terrible, I took 200mg of caffeine 30 minutes ago, I hope it will help, because it causes also nausea. Referring to this, how is it possible that serotonin medications such triptans cure migraines and I’m gonna treat it by lowering it? A lot of researches prove that migraine is caused by low serotonin... I’m kinda suffering really hard because of these migraines, I hope this caffeine will help somehow. My migraines are worst in the morning, as I read, brain produces highest amounts of serotonin shortly after getting up (?), so maybe this is somehow connected.
I know that serotonin also regulates appetite - my appetite is really weak and I’d like to gain some weight. Is it possible that high serotonin in a brain causes loss of appetite?
And what about brain damage, is it reversible or it’s permanent? I hope it can be fixed...
You have a great knowledge, I’m really grateful for that. :)

 

[ginny-red]

Most people here would probably say yes, stop taking it.
Ray Peat is certainly not a fan.

Good advice, noted.
Could you say something about mushrooms, sour cream, milk in leaky gut? Give up on them? And maybe you know how long does it take to restore the bacterial flora in gut?

 

[Constatine]

Thank you for a great reply! It’s kinda interesting that too high serotonin causes anxiety and SSRIs are mostly presribed for anxiety disorders.
Today my headache is terrible, I took 200mg of caffeine 30 minutes ago, I hope it will help, because it causes also nausea. Referring to this, how is it possible that serotonin medications such triptans cure migraines and I’m gonna treat it by lowering it? A lot of researches prove that migraine is caused by low serotonin... I’m kinda suffering really hard because of these migraines, I hope this caffeine will help somehow. My migraines are worst in the morning, as I read, brain produces highest amounts of serotonin shortly after getting up (?), so maybe this is somehow connected.
I know that serotonin also regulates appetite - my appetite is really weak and I’d like to gain some weight. Is it possible that high serotonin in a brain causes loss of appetite?
And what about brain damage, is it reversible or it’s permanent? I hope it can be fixed...
You have a great knowledge, I’m really grateful for that. :)

Yes serotonin reduces appetite. This is why cyproheptadine makes people gain a ton of weight. Tripitans are selective serotonin agonsits and act upon receptors that cause vasoconstriction. It is my understanding that migraines occure due to vasoconstriction from serotonin which reduces blood flow to the brain (which is responsible for migraine auras and other symptoms) followed by rapid vasodilation in response to the vasoconstriction (the vasodilation is what causes the pain). The tripitans stop the vasodilation response from occuring but in doing so are thought to increase mini stroke risk. Brain damage is always reversible. Even servere brain damage such as major strokes. If your migraines are that bad then maybe you should try aspirin (or even meadowsweet which is a herb with salicylic acid in it but is not so bad for the stomach). I do think aspirin is more effective than caffeine for migraines. When I used to get migraines every day the combination of aspirin and caffeine was great for making them disappear. Aspirin and caffeine are actually part of a very popular migraine over the counter medication: Acetaminophen, aspirin, and caffeine in combination versus ibuprofen for acute migraine: results from a multicenter, double-blind, randomized, parall... - PubMed - NCBI , aka Excedrin. If you do try it just pay close attention to how it effects you, I don't think aspirin mixes too well with ibs related conditions.

 

[damngoodcoffee]

Good advice, noted.
Could you say something about mushrooms, sour cream, milk in leaky gut? Give up on them? And maybe you know how long does it take to restore the bacterial flora in gut?

Well cooked button mushrooms are really good for mood and digestion in my experience.

The dairy thing is something you have to experiment with. Personally I'm still experimenting with different types of dairy but I have to say I notice benefits when I'm dairy free. Better digestion, clearer head, more energy and motivation, feel more manly and less wimpy haha.

The gut bacteria thing is a whole crazy rabbit hole. I recommend searching the forum for discussion about it and checking what Ray has said about it.

 

[ginny-red]

Well cooked button mushrooms are really good for mood and digestion in my experience.

The dairy thing is something you have to experiment with. Personally I'm still experimenting with different types of dairy but I have to say I notice benefits when I'm dairy free. Better digestion, clearer head, more energy and motivation, feel more manly and less wimpy haha.

The gut bacteria thing is a whole crazy rabbit hole. I recommend searching the forum for discussion about it and checking what Ray has said about it.

Thanks for advice!
Now my only dairy is goat milk because of a lot of prebiotics in it - I'll check how I feel after that.
My gut is in really bad condition I think - stomach aches, bloating, sometimes diarrhea and sometimes constipation... And problems with my brain. I don't know what these protein drinks did to me but I think they had a lot of fungus in it and caused a huge mess in my intestine. And I'm still fighting with that.

 

[ginny-red]

Yes serotonin reduces appetite. This is why cyproheptadine makes people gain a ton of weight. Tripitans are selective serotonin agonsits and act upon receptors that cause vasoconstriction. It is my understanding that migraines occure due to vasoconstriction from serotonin which reduces blood flow to the brain (which is responsible for migraine auras and other symptoms) followed by rapid vasodilation in response to the vasoconstriction (the vasodilation is what causes the pain). The tripitans stop the vasodilation response from occuring but in doing so are thought to increase mini stroke risk. Brain damage is always reversible. Even servere brain damage such as major strokes. If your migraines are that bad then maybe you should try aspirin (or even meadowsweet which is a herb with salicylic acid in it but is not so bad for the stomach). I do think aspirin is more effective than caffeine for migraines. When I used to get migraines every day the combination of aspirin and caffeine was great for making them disappear. Aspirin and caffeine are actually part of a very popular migraine over the counter medication: Acetaminophen, aspirin, and caffeine in combination versus ibuprofen for acute migraine: results from a multicenter, double-blind, randomized, parall... - PubMed - NCBI , aka Excedrin. If you do try it just pay close attention to how it effects you, I don't think aspirin mixes too well with ibs related conditions.

Thank you for your answer.
I'm wondering how can I speed up metabolism of excess triptophan... I'm gonna make some lab tests for fungus and bacteria in intestine, because maybe something in my gut causes excess production of serotonin and this is the reason why I feel this way - maybe you know if this is possible. My organism is repairing from 1,5 month and I'm wondering where is the end of this whole mess and how long will this take...

 

[Constatine]

Thank you for your answer.
I'm wondering how can I speed up metabolism of excess triptophan... I'm gonna make some lab tests for fungus and bacteria in intestine, because maybe something in my gut causes excess production of serotonin and this is the reason why I feel this way - maybe you know if this is possible. My organism is repairing from 1,5 month and I'm wondering where is the end of this whole mess and how long will this take...

Serotonin metabolism is mostly dependent on the gut and gut microbiome. It's typically thought 90 or so percent is produced in the gut. So I would say serotonin related issues are almost always due to gut problems. I think it's important to note that the effects of endotoxin and serotonin are almost indistinguishable from each other in ibs like conditions as they synergize and typically rise and fall together in activity. Blocking serotonin typically protects against some of the effects of endotoxin and reducing endotoxin betters serotonin metabolism. It would be reasonable to think that serotonin protects against endotoxin on some level but I have yet to see any study showing this.

 

[Peatful]

@Constatine

Have you “fixed” your gut?
Antibiotics?
Thank you!

 

[Constatine]

@Constatine

Have you “fixed” your gut?
Antibiotics?
Thank you!

Yes I'm in a very good place now. Powerful antibiotics started my symptoms so I didn't use any to recover. The things that helped me most were: tumeric, caffeine (but only caffeine pills have helped), coconut oil, carrot salad, goat milk, caloric surplus, sun exposure (tanning) for at least 30 minutes a day, triphala, avoiding too high fat consumption, walking every day, and plenty of fruit consumption with an emphasis on blueberries.

 

[Peatful]

Yes I'm in a very good place now. Powerful antibiotics started my symptoms so I didn't use any to recover. The things that helped me most were: tumeric, caffeine (but only caffeine pills have helped), coconut oil, carrot salad, goat milk, caloric surplus, sun exposure (tanning) for at least 30 minutes a day, triphala, avoiding too high fat consumption, walking every day, and plenty of fruit consumption with an emphasis on blueberries.

Excellent
I always appreciate your perspective @Constatine
Thx!

 

[General Orange]

Chronic constipation or diarrhea due to damaged intestinal villi promotes lymph congestion.
You could try applying an -castor-oil pack- on the abdomen to help with the stimulation of gut associated lymph tissue the digestive tract and liver.
A nice summary of its applications can be found here
https://www.organicolivia.com/2016/...y-its-famous-for-skin-hair-pain-relief-detox/
Also Far Infrared Sauna helps activating circulation, sweating and excretion of toxins from the lymph and blood through the skin.
Take a break every 15 minutes to shower in cold water for 30 seconds to promote even more circulation and stimulation of the lymph.

 

[GutFeeling]

Topical Magnesium chloride help me alot. Methylene blue, b vits, zinc and very low omega 3/6 pufa diet with cyproheptadine and good amount of sugar, bovine protein and fat (bovine) solved my anxyety and gut problems. Starchs with half exception of potato make not feel good too.
Omega 3/6 in non conjugated form make me feel very bad, omega 6 effect are almost instant, Dha gave me contispation and weaknes.

 

[ginny-red]

Topical Magnesium chloride help me alot. Methylene blue, b vits, zinc and very low omega 3/6 pufa diet with cyproheptadine and good amount of sugar, bovine protein and fat (bovine) solved my anxyety and gut problems. Starchs with half exception of potato make not feel good too.
Omega 3/6 in non conjugated form make me feel very bad, omega 6 effect are almost instant, Dha gave me contispation and weaknes.

Thank you! Did you have serotonin syndrome and what caused it? How long ago? And what were your symptoms after SS?
Methylene blue is not available in my country, so I cannot take it.
What was your anxiety like and how long does it last? Did you have muscle tremors and intrusive thoughts?

 

[Constatine]

Thank you! Did you have serotonin syndrome and what caused it? How long ago? And what were your symptoms after SS?
Methylene blue is not available in my country, so I cannot take it.
What was your anxiety like and how long does it last? Did you have muscle tremors and intrusive thoughts?

Note that Methylene Blue, though is generally beneficial, it increases serotonin and has been known to contribute to serotonin syndrome. So stay far away from it.

 

[GutFeeling]

Thank you! Did you have serotonin syndrome and what caused it? How long ago? And what were your symptoms after SS?
Methylene blue is not available in my country, so I cannot take it.
What was your anxiety like and how long does it last? Did you have muscle tremors and intrusive thoughts?

I think Mb it decreased my serotonin, by decreasing intestinal inflammation, if it increased the effects seem to have been nullified by the benefits of MB, left me
calmer and made me stop having any unwanted thoughts.

I had serotonin syndrome, the main symptom was anxiety.
During the SS it happened:

* Tremors in the body, especially when I was near someone.

* Uncontrolled and excessive thoughts, could not stop, was a real hell, and most of these thoughts were intrusive, disgusting.

* I thought people thought of me.

* Unbalanced body, in the sense of a little difficulty standing still or walking steadily.

* I could not read right, sometimes in texts or movies I already wanted to see a summary or final for lack of patience.

At the height of anxiety a few moments I thought about killing myself, but never really would.

When I took cyproheptadine in a few minutes my view of the world changed, showing that I was a little paranoid.
Nobody ever knew because that was inside my head and when in the social environment I knew how to be good. My symptoms reminded me of schizophrenia, at times I thought the thoughts were not mine, but I ruled out that it was serious because I spoke very well in public, had good motor skills and when I tried, I could see if my thinking was crazy or not. This shows symptoms of high serotonin, as cyproheptadine resolved 80% within minutes.

Supplements and diet made me find peace of mind, my previous history was low carb. Since I was born I had a kind of intolerance to omega 3/6. A simple dose of dha caused me problems with the skin, malaise, and constipation. With conjugated omega 3 / 6 and omega-9, there are no bad reactions. Today reading the peat world I'm happy because it saved me from infant formulas and lots of junk food.

Sometimes that did not happen, it depended a lot on my diet, bovine feet also left me in the path of light.

Starches in moderation, these few coming from tubers, fruits, sugar, coffee, ruminant fat, and raw milk already partially resolved in me. Liver and other organs made me very calm too. Just like peat said I realized that low blood sugar makes you vuneravel to many things.

Magnesium, Mb, zinc and b vits passed cement on the wound.

 

[GutFeeling]

At the height of the anxiety cyproheptadine did not solve much thing because about 1 or 2 hours after taking 4 or 8 mg the unwanted thoughts already attacked again, the strongest problem of the anxiety that I had were the thoughts.

 

[ginny-red]

I think Mb it decreased my serotonin, by decreasing intestinal inflammation, if it increased the effects seem to have been nullified by the benefits of MB, left me
calmer and made me stop having any unwanted thoughts.

I had serotonin syndrome, the main symptom was anxiety.
During the SS it happened:

* Tremors in the body, especially when I was near someone.

* Uncontrolled and excessive thoughts, could not stop, was a real hell, and most of these thoughts were intrusive, disgusting.

* I thought people thought of me.

* Unbalanced body, in the sense of a little difficulty standing still or walking steadily.

* I could not read right, sometimes in texts or movies I already wanted to see a summary or final for lack of patience.

At the height of anxiety a few moments I thought about killing myself, but never really would.

When I took cyproheptadine in a few minutes my view of the world changed, showing that I was a little paranoid.
Nobody ever knew because that was inside my head and when in the social environment I knew how to be good. My symptoms reminded me of schizophrenia, at times I thought the thoughts were not mine, but I ruled out that it was serious because I spoke very well in public, had good motor skills and when I tried, I could see if my thinking was crazy or not. This shows symptoms of high serotonin, as cyproheptadine resolved 80% within minutes.

Supplements and diet made me find peace of mind, my previous history was low carb. Since I was born I had a kind of intolerance to omega 3/6. A simple dose of dha caused me problems with the skin, malaise, and constipation. With conjugated omega 3 / 6 and omega-9, there are no bad reactions. Today reading the peat world I'm happy because it saved me from infant formulas and lots of junk food.

Sometimes that did not happen, it depended a lot on my diet, bovine feet also left me in the path of light.

Starches in moderation, these few coming from tubers, fruits, sugar, coffee, ruminant fat, and raw milk already partially resolved in me. Liver and other organs made me very calm too. Just like peat said I realized that low blood sugar makes you vuneravel to many things.

Magnesium, Mb, zinc and b vits passed cement on the wound.

Thank you, and when did you have SS and how long did it take to heal?
What did cause your SS?