lindsay
Member
Hey All.
I posted this over on Peatarian and Charlie asked me to post it over here. Would love to see some good feedback, because I'm just running on logic. Additionally, the studies I'm referring to can be found on Peatarian under different topics.
Here's the thread exactly as I posted it on Peatarian:
"So, I've been paying attention to the people on this forum (and the RP forum) who've said milk is difficult for them. Then Islandgirl and Bukowski posted studies regarding estrogen in milk (as did Kasra awhile back). I've noticed that most people who struggle with milk on this forum are predominantly female, and some men who think they might have higher estrogen levels. I was reading RP's book "from PMS to Menopause" and was struck by something he said on page 14.....
"In egg-laying chickens, estrogen promotes the storage of calcium, largely in the soft interior of bones, but if combined with a high calcium intake, extra estrogen can be toxic. To the extent that estrogen does increase the mineral content of bone, it seems to be in the spongy cancellous bone around the marrow, rather than in the strong cortical bone."
So, if someone who is already estrogen dominant drinks a lot of milk (which also contains estrogen), could it be that the high calcium in the milk, paired with the estrogen in the milk, is just not a good combo? I noticed I feel better taking a calcium supplement and drinking less milk - maybe because the milk contains additional estrogen, which I don't need.
Also, Islandgirl, I found this quote on functional alps - which might explain the need for magnesium to balance the calcium, as you've suggested:
“The toxic effects of excessive intracellular calcium (decreased respiration and increased excitation) are opposed by magnesium. Both thyroid and progesterone improve magnesium retention. Estrogen dominance is often associated with magnesium deficiency, which can be an important factor in osteoporosis (Abraham and Grewal, 1990; Muneyyirci-Delale, et al., 1999).” -Ray Peat, PhD
additionally:
“Instead of taking dietary supplements, it is far safer in general to use real foods, and to exclude foods which are poor in nutrients. For example, magnesium is typically deficient in hypothyroidism, and the safest way to get it is by using orange juice and meats, and by using epsom salts baths.” -Ray Peat, PhD
Here is the link: http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/1 ... eficiency/
So all this to say, I think that RP's logic is kind of floating all over the place and when we ask him for help, he doesn't have the time to put the pieces of the puzzle together for us and our individual needs. It seems that in the case of excess estrogen, magnesium is very important to balance calcium. RP usually just says drink milk, because the calcium is important for thyroid function. But for those who have excess estrogen, and considering milk also contains estrogen, it might be best to supplement calcium and be sure to get plenty of magnesium too - and Islandgirl, I didn't just pull this idea out my butt. Thank you for bringing magnesium up - I've actually been trying to figure this balance out since you suggested it. what's a good ratio of calcium to magnesium for hypothyroid people who are estrogen dominant, this would be a good question to put to Peat.
Anyhow, this could be helpful for people who are having issues with milk. I was taking lots of progesterone and still having trouble on and off with milk. But, I cut down on my milk and started a calcium supplement and feel the difference in "swelling". Also, I noticed feeling much better with goats milk. maybe we could find some studies on estrogen in goats milk?
RP probably recommends milk because he prefers food to supplements, but there are good calcium supplements out there and I think it's worth considering."
Additionally, I'm curious about goats milk - I seem to have less symptoms with goats milk, but I haven't tried drinking a quart or more to see how it goes (it's too expensive!) But here's an interesting article:
http://www.mtcapra.com/benefits-of-goat ... -cow-milk/
I posted this over on Peatarian and Charlie asked me to post it over here. Would love to see some good feedback, because I'm just running on logic. Additionally, the studies I'm referring to can be found on Peatarian under different topics.
Here's the thread exactly as I posted it on Peatarian:
"So, I've been paying attention to the people on this forum (and the RP forum) who've said milk is difficult for them. Then Islandgirl and Bukowski posted studies regarding estrogen in milk (as did Kasra awhile back). I've noticed that most people who struggle with milk on this forum are predominantly female, and some men who think they might have higher estrogen levels. I was reading RP's book "from PMS to Menopause" and was struck by something he said on page 14.....
"In egg-laying chickens, estrogen promotes the storage of calcium, largely in the soft interior of bones, but if combined with a high calcium intake, extra estrogen can be toxic. To the extent that estrogen does increase the mineral content of bone, it seems to be in the spongy cancellous bone around the marrow, rather than in the strong cortical bone."
So, if someone who is already estrogen dominant drinks a lot of milk (which also contains estrogen), could it be that the high calcium in the milk, paired with the estrogen in the milk, is just not a good combo? I noticed I feel better taking a calcium supplement and drinking less milk - maybe because the milk contains additional estrogen, which I don't need.
Also, Islandgirl, I found this quote on functional alps - which might explain the need for magnesium to balance the calcium, as you've suggested:
“The toxic effects of excessive intracellular calcium (decreased respiration and increased excitation) are opposed by magnesium. Both thyroid and progesterone improve magnesium retention. Estrogen dominance is often associated with magnesium deficiency, which can be an important factor in osteoporosis (Abraham and Grewal, 1990; Muneyyirci-Delale, et al., 1999).” -Ray Peat, PhD
additionally:
“Instead of taking dietary supplements, it is far safer in general to use real foods, and to exclude foods which are poor in nutrients. For example, magnesium is typically deficient in hypothyroidism, and the safest way to get it is by using orange juice and meats, and by using epsom salts baths.” -Ray Peat, PhD
Here is the link: http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/1 ... eficiency/
So all this to say, I think that RP's logic is kind of floating all over the place and when we ask him for help, he doesn't have the time to put the pieces of the puzzle together for us and our individual needs. It seems that in the case of excess estrogen, magnesium is very important to balance calcium. RP usually just says drink milk, because the calcium is important for thyroid function. But for those who have excess estrogen, and considering milk also contains estrogen, it might be best to supplement calcium and be sure to get plenty of magnesium too - and Islandgirl, I didn't just pull this idea out my butt. Thank you for bringing magnesium up - I've actually been trying to figure this balance out since you suggested it. what's a good ratio of calcium to magnesium for hypothyroid people who are estrogen dominant, this would be a good question to put to Peat.
Anyhow, this could be helpful for people who are having issues with milk. I was taking lots of progesterone and still having trouble on and off with milk. But, I cut down on my milk and started a calcium supplement and feel the difference in "swelling". Also, I noticed feeling much better with goats milk. maybe we could find some studies on estrogen in goats milk?
RP probably recommends milk because he prefers food to supplements, but there are good calcium supplements out there and I think it's worth considering."
Additionally, I'm curious about goats milk - I seem to have less symptoms with goats milk, but I haven't tried drinking a quart or more to see how it goes (it's too expensive!) But here's an interesting article:
http://www.mtcapra.com/benefits-of-goat ... -cow-milk/