Low Toxin Testimonials "Probably Added 30lb of Muscle"

[haidut]

Can you share the food they are eating so that hidden sources of "vitamin A" can be looked for? I believe it was Grant who showed that when they were giving what they thought were vA deficient diets, they were actually not.

Most studies are done with the standard diet below, where a specific nutrient is removed.

Rodents - Feed and nutrition products | Purina

multipurina.ca

In this case, the vitamin A acetate will be removed. I understand there could be hidden vitamin A sources, but if we are removing the added vitamin A (which is the bulk of the vitamin A in the diet), the health of the animal should still improve, right? So, the idea is to just do a before/after on a diet with removed vitamin A for comparison of basic things like steroids, cholesterol, and maybe liver enzymes.

 

[J.R.K]

Most studies are done with the standard diet below, where a specific nutrient is removed.

Rodents - Feed and nutrition products | Purina

multipurina.ca

In this case, the vitamin A acetate will be removed. I understand there could be hidden vitamin A sources, but if we are removing the added vitamin A (which is the bulk of the vitamin A in the diet), the health of the animal should still improve, right? So, the idea is to just do a before/after on a diet with removed vitamin A for comparison of basic things like steroids, cholesterol, and maybe liver enzymes.

This may or may not be relevant but in the interest of another one of Dr Peats recommendations was the toxicity of iron. He always recommended having coffee after a meal of say liver or red meat for example, and the blood donation is a regular topic and method for reducing iron stores.
So perhaps we might consider having a regular dietary intake of vitamin A but with a low iron diet or iron depletion diet. Since low iron appears to be one of the factors to block the uptake of vitamin A, amongst others listed.

Causes. In addition to dietary problems, other causes of VAD are known. Iron deficiency can affect vitamin A uptake; other causes include fibrosis, pancreatic insufficiency, inflammatory bowel disease, and small-bowel bypass surgery.

 

[Elast1c]

So the guy basically lost weight, this is clear from the video, of course he also has the right religious leanings which has always tainted the views of Peat and science on here.
I think many insights from Peat along with biological coherency will cause people to question the cult of religion, this makes some people uncomfortable so they go back to the old lens of perceiving. This old lens religiously tainted creates stress via perceptions, elevated prolactin because the world doesn't align with said religion via feedback loops.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A37MeQknnio

Bible seems Right.

 

[mosaic01]

I don't think the results are generalizeable but it does demonstrate that the liver is capable of reducing storage of retinol with that level of intake, in some circumstances.

My experience based on subjective symptoms is that for me there is noticeable retinoid detox from the liver anywhere under 1000IU (0.3mg), maybe even 2000, increasing exponentially if I approach zero vitamin A intake for a few days. I suspect that the more over full the liver is with retinoids, the more pressure to excrete some even if intake is approaching what would be the stable amount for someone whos liver is happy to maintain current storage levels. So maybe you would never get full depletion on 2000 IU, but I think you can probably reduce liver and tissue storage levels enough to make a big difference in health.

Yeah, the depletion is related to the amount stored.

From the EFSA paper:

"Based on the disappearance kinetics of the fraction of labelled dose in plasma at equilibrium derived from the data of Haskell et al. (1998), Furr et al. (2005) estimated the fractional catabolic rate of retinol to be 0.4 % per day (range: 0.1–0.7 % per day) in the US subjects and 0.9 % per day (range: 0.5–1.2 % per day) in the Bangladeshi subjects, respectively. The difference was not statistically significant. It also did not differ from the rate of 0.5 % per day as previously determined (Sauberlich et al., 1974)."

"Based on the same approach, Haskell et al. (2003) estimated a fractional catabolic rate of 2.2 % per day in 107 Peruvian children (12–24 months of age) with total body retinol stores estimated as 28 ± 23 mg."

https://www.efsa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/consultation/consultation/141117.pdf

 

[Soren]

So just

Most studies are done with the standard diet below, where a specific nutrient is removed.

Rodents - Feed and nutrition products | Purina

multipurina.ca

In this case, the vitamin A acetate will be removed. I understand there could be hidden vitamin A sources, but if we are removing the added vitamin A (which is the bulk of the vitamin A in the diet), the health of the animal should still improve, right? So, the idea is to just do a before/after on a diet with removed vitamin A for comparison of basic things like steroids, cholesterol, and maybe liver enzymes.

Very keen to seen this and glad you are doing it Georgi. I know from my own experience Vitamin A has been very positive for my health and others whom i've recommended take it.

 

[mosaic01]

In this case, the vitamin A acetate will be removed. I understand there could be hidden vitamin A sources, but if we are removing the added vitamin A (which is the bulk of the vitamin A in the diet), the health of the animal should still improve, right? So, the idea is to just do a before/after on a diet with removed vitamin A for comparison of basic things like steroids, cholesterol, and maybe liver enzymes.

I once read somewhere that average research rats full of vitamin A are considered useless for vitamin A depletion studies because it takes so long to deplete their livers. May be necessary to take into account. Measuring serum level and liver stores seems important.

 

[charlie]

I once read somewhere that average research rats full of vitamin A are considered useless for vitamin A depletion studies because it takes so long to deplete their livers. May be necessary to take into account. Measuring serum level and liver stores seems important.

Exactly, it is taking up to 2 or 3 years for humans to see the real big changes like majorly increased testosterone in men, etc. Yes, there are many feel good changes like more energy, better sleep, better digestion, better skin health, etc etc. But the huge biological changes are taking some time.

 

[charlie]

With that said, I would be willing to contribute funds to a study that is structured correctly. This is so important and can literally change humanity.

 

[Nick]

Do they use sprouted oats, and beans?

It was just a diet for an experiment to disprove the old studies that established the mainstream view of retinol deficiency, not for optimal gerbil health.

 

[J.R.K]

It was just a diet for an experiment to disprove the old studies that established the mainstream view of retinol deficiency, not for optimal gerbil health.

Good to know but for humans adopting this it would probably be a good move to eliminate these anti nutrient toxins from the diet as well yes?

 

[Nick]

Good to know but for humans adopting this it would probably be a good move to eliminate these anti nutrient toxins from the diet as well yes?

I would think so. Soaking is definitely useful, probably sprouting too but I have not tried it. I don't think that gerbil experiment diet is good for humans, there is no meat or fruit for example.

 

[J.R.K]

I would think so. Soaking is definitely useful, probably sprouting too but I have not tried it. I don't think that gerbil experiment diet is good for humans, there is no meat or fruit for example.

You are doing the low / no vitamin A diet @Nick?
If so do you think coffee would be beneficial since it blocks not only iron but also vitamin A from being absorbed?
Or is coffee problematic in this diet choice, assuming in relation to pesticides and processing.

 

[Nick]

You are doing the low / no vitamin A diet @Nick?
If so do you think coffee would be beneficial since it blocks not only iron but also vitamin A from being absorbed?
Or is coffee problematic in this diet choice, assuming in relation to pesticides and processing.

I think there are arguments either way. For example, I know Garrett Smith views it as inherently toxic but his approach is pretty strict. At some point Grant Genereux has talked about it possibly being beneficial for depleting vitamin A.

Personally I am keeping an open mind either way and for myself I have tried periods of drinking coffee and other periods of not and I have yet to come to any definitive conclusion, even just for myself. It probably can depend on the context, even day to day. It definitely can help the bile flow and help the bowels move more frequently, which is a big positive if they are not, but in this sense it could also be seen as a bit of a crutch. I know it can also contribute to B vitamin deficiencies sometimes and, as you say, can probably contain pesticides or fungal contamination.

 

[J.R.K]

I think there are arguments either way. For example, I know Garrett Smith views it as inherently toxic but his approach is pretty strict. At some point Grant Genereux has talked about it possibly being beneficial for depleting vitamin A.

Personally I am keeping an open mind either way and for myself I have tried periods of drinking coffee and other periods of not and I have yet to come to any definitive conclusion, even just for myself. It probably can depend on the context, even day to day. It definitely can help the bile flow and help the bowels move more frequently, which is a big positive if they are not, but in this sense it could also be seen as a bit of a crutch. I know it can also contribute to B vitamin deficiencies sometimes and, as you say, can probably contain pesticides or fungal contamination.

I appreciate your insights and the time explaining your experience. Currently I am just trying to understand the nuances and differences.
You are right though coffee does bind to many things other than just iron, vitamin D is also in that grouping as well. But it may deplete vitamin A at an expedited rate if you were looking to lower it quicker.
As for beans and grains in general, I personally do not do well on them, but there are people who do, I am just not one of them, sprouted or not.

 

[InChristAlone]

I appreciate your insights and the time explaining your experience. Currently I am just trying to understand the nuances and differences.
You are right though coffee does bind to many things other than just iron, vitamin D is also in that grouping as well. But it may deplete vitamin A at an expedited rate if you were looking to lower it quicker.
As for beans and grains in general, I personally do not do well on them, but there are people who do, I am just not one of them, sprouted or not.

I did horrible on beans as well because I was avoiding them due to Ray Peat saying they were estrogenic. I used to eat them before that. You can slowly build tolerance and then over time it is easier to digest. I am eating them again twice a day. I definitely feel like my gut is not where it should be yet but I'm not having any cramping so far.

 

[J.R.K]

I did horrible on beans as well because I was avoiding them due to Ray Peat saying they were estrogenic. I used to eat them before that. You can slowly build tolerance and then over time it is easier to digest. I am eating them again twice a day. I definitely feel like my gut is not where it should be yet but I'm not having any cramping so far.

I don’t get the cramping, but I get the low energy, and just a feeling of malaise. I am an active guy and do a physical job that involves some heavy lifting, and requires high energy both mentally and physically. So they just do not work for my needs. It would be akin to putting the lowest grade fuel into a McLaren. It will go but you might as well just take the Toyota mini van.

 

[InChristAlone]

I don’t get the cramping, but I get the low energy, and just a feeling of malaise. I am an active guy and do a physical job that involves some heavy lifting, and requires high energy both mentally and physically. So they just do not work for my needs. It would be akin to putting the lowest grade fuel into a McLaren. It will go but you might as well just take the Toyota mini van.

Yeah I understand, it sucks to go through that. I put off dealing with my gut for years and years.

 

[J.R.K]

Yeah I understand, it sucks to go through that. I put off dealing with my gut for years and years.

There is a lot associated with the GI issues, but I think for me the understanding and this is a Dr Peat observation, (my apologies in advance if that bothers anyone right now), but finding foods that are easily digestible and that do not drain me was key. I followed all the mainstream ideas, no to low sugar, grains, nuts, seeds, raw salads and low fat for the longest time, it was okay until I hit a wall, and certain problems started to arise. Then I knew I had to change, now here I am still learning.
The one thing that I am seeing with this approach is the calcium to phosphate ratio. Since dairy is out what is the position on calcium in this approach? As well as how this approach looks at sodium, magnesium and potassium? To be clear I am just trying to be genuine and better understanding of the differences now being proposed.
@charlie @Nick @mosaic01

 

[InChristAlone]

There is a lot associated with the GI issues, but I think for me the understanding and this is a Dr Peat observation, (my apologies in advance if that bothers anyone right now), but finding foods that are easily digestible and that do not drain me was key. I followed all the mainstream ideas, no to low sugar, grains, nuts, seeds, raw salads and low fat for the longest time, it was okay until I hit a wall, and certain problems started to arise. Then I knew I had to change, now here I am still learning.
The one thing that I am seeing with this approach is the calcium to phosphate ratio. Since dairy is out what is the position on calcium in this approach? As well as how this approach looks at sodium, magnesium and potassium? To be clear I am just trying to be genuine and better understanding of the differences now being proposed.
@charlie @Nick @mosaic01

Yeah I think easily digested foods work for someone that is drained by harder foods. I used them to heal from severe burnout. So it took me a long time to even consider changing that up as I didn't want to feel that overwhelming feeling of not being able to function. Yes the low A diet is a pretty low calcium diet. I am a slow oxidizer so my calcium on my hair mineral test on a dairy heavy diet was through the roof! I think most adults are that way (unless they are in a four lows pattern which is not good). Children are opposite they have low calcium on their hair test. So I don't think it does much harm as an adult to eat lower in calcium.

 

[J.R.K]

Yeah I think easily digested foods work for someone that is drained by harder foods. I used them to heal from severe burnout. So it took me a long time to even consider changing that up as I didn't want to feel that overwhelming feeling of not being able to function. Yes the low A diet is a pretty low calcium diet. I am a slow oxidizer so my calcium on my hair mineral test on a dairy heavy diet was through the roof! I think most adults are that way (unless they are in a four lows pattern which is not good). Children are opposite they have low calcium on their hair test. So I don't think it does much harm as an adult to eat lower in calcium.

Interesting thought pattern. The burnout issue, I can relate to that one too well unfortunately.
Your point on children having low calcium on their hair test, there is a lot that could be read into that, so I am trying to remove the spring on this.
Would you know the age bracket of the children you mentioned by chance as well as their diets. The reason that I would ask is if say if you were to do the same test with Masai children would we expect a similar result with say a child eating a western style of diet?
Again this is meant as a genuine learning question.