Nicotine [Through A Peat Prism?]

[DaveFoster]

Paging @haidut

Do you think there's a role for nicotine in a healthful Peat lifestyle?

Would lower doses avoid acetylcholine release?

 

[Peata]

While you're waiting for haidut to reply, I hope he doesn't mind I jump in because I remember he mentioned nicotine in a thread about cyproheptadine:

"As far as combating the somnolence of cypro, if you can't handle higher doses of caffeine you can try nicotine gum. It does have stimulating effect on the brain. As per Peat's recommendations I would keep nicotine dosage low (<=4mg daily) since it is cholinergic and can also stimulate glycolysis. Also, make sure you chew it after ingesting some sugar since it may trigger an adrenalin response if you are underfed. The cypro should negate some of the adrenalin effects of nicotine but eat the sugar just in case." Awful response to cyproheptadine

 

[DaveFoster]

While you're waiting for haidut to reply, I hope he doesn't mind I jump in because I remember he mentioned nicotine in a thread about cyproheptadine:

"As far as combating the somnolence of cypro, if you can't handle higher doses of caffeine you can try nicotine gum. It does have stimulating effect on the brain. As per Peat's recommendations I would keep nicotine dosage low (<=4mg daily) since it is cholinergic and can also stimulate glycolysis. Also, make sure you chew it after ingesting some sugar since it may trigger an adrenalin response if you are underfed. The cypro should negate some of the adrenalin effects of nicotine but eat the sugar just in case." Awful response to cyproheptadine

I remember that post. It doesn't seem ideal. The only other thing I can think of for promoting dopamine is rasagiline (MAO-B inhibitor).

 

[haidut]

Paging @haidut

Do you think there's a role for nicotine in a healthful Peat lifestyle?

Would lower doses avoid acetylcholine release?

It's an aromatase inhibitor, so that effect is certainly beneficial. However, it does increase fat oxidation and glycolysis so it's not something I would use in high doses on a regular basis.

 

[DaveFoster]

It's an aromatase inhibitor, so that effect is certainly beneficial. However, it does increase fat oxidation and glycolysis so it's not something I would use in high doses on a regular basis.

Thanks haidut.

Found this as well, which shows that the lipolytic of nicotine effect may attenuate with time. Not sure about glycolysis, but I'd imagine they're interrelated.

Animal interventions note a reliable increase in lipolysis and metabolic rate, which is attenuated over time (low dose nicotine eventually becoming not significantly different than placebo, with higher doses required to maintain lipolysis). Increase in metabolic rate may simply be due to more catecholamines (adrenaline and noradrenaline)

Source: Nicotine - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com

On another note, the ability of nicotine to lower prolactin makes it incredibly appetizing.

Zinc, aspirin, caffeine, and the ergot derivatives d do as well.

With chronic nicotine intake, there may be an effect similar to pramiprexole for libido.

 

[Drareg]

Thanks haidut.

Found this as well, which shows that the lipolytic of nicotine effect may attenuate with time. Not sure about glycolysis, but I'd imagine they're interrelated.


Source: Nicotine - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com

On another note, the ability of nicotine to lower prolactin makes it incredibly appetizing.

Zinc, aspirin, caffeine, and the ergot derivatives d do as well.

With chronic nicotine intake, there may be an effect similar to pramiprexole for libido.

You may adjust to fat oxidation with time but downside is withdrawal , I'm guessing withdrawal increases fat oxidation and estrogen far more than coffee for example, coffee withdrawal is a lot easier to deal with than cold turkey nicotine.

 

[Dopamine]

Thanks haidut.

Found this as well, which shows that the lipolytic of nicotine effect may attenuate with time. Not sure about glycolysis, but I'd imagine they're interrelated.


Source: Nicotine - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com

On another note, the ability of nicotine to lower prolactin makes it incredibly appetizing.

Zinc, aspirin, caffeine, and the ergot derivatives d do as well.

With chronic nicotine intake, there may be an effect similar to pramiprexole for libido.

Good find.

From what I have read I don't think it will increase fat oxidation and glycolysis any more than caffeine. They seem to have similar potential for raising stress hormones. Also chronic use seems to lower the stress response. I would agree that doses probaly shouldn't be pushed higher than the body can handle but as with caffeine I think that chronic use ie. everyday- has it benefits.

These two studies I posted show a very similar response from caffeine and nicotine at raising ACTH and cortisol which would mobilize free fatty acids and ramp up glycolysis. In the nicotine study- smokers did not experience this stress response from nicotine due to chronic adaptation. Given time the caffeine users should show a lower response as well and many studies support that.

Stress-like adrenocorticotropin responses to caffeine in young healthy men. - PubMed - NCBI
The effects of oral caffeine (3.3 mg/kg, equivalent to 2-3 cups of coffee) on plasma adrenocorticotropin (ACTH) and cortisol (CORT) were tested in 47 healthy young men at rest in a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study. Following caffeine, ACTH was significantly elevated at all times from 30 min to 180 min, and CORT was elevated from 60 min to 120 min

[Oral administration of nicotine and plasma levels of ACTH and cortisol in smokers and non-smokers]. - PubMed - NCBI
Plasma ACTH and cortisol levels after oral administration of nicotine (chewing gum containing nicotine 2 mg) in short and long time (10 and 45 min) were studied in smokers and non smokers. Non smokers after short time administration showed significant rise in ACTH and cortisol. No modifications were seen in the other groups of subjects.

 

[Dopamine]

Also one could take niacinamide or aspirin (or both)... with each dosage of nicotine to help prevent any increase in FFA in the blood stream. People do the same thing with coffee.

 

[michael94]

I get no withdrawal personally, but I don't take nicotine in it's pure form so I don't know if there is a difference. I can go indefinitely without a cigarette and no problems. I do tend to want it but it's more like the way I want a nice dinner everyday than it's like recovering from heroine abuse.

 

[Dopamine]

You may adjust to fat oxidation with time but downside is withdrawal , I'm guessing withdrawal increases fat oxidation and estrogen far more than coffee for example, coffee withdrawal is a lot easier to deal with than cold turkey nicotine.

Withdrawal from cigarettes is much different from nicotine withdrawal. Nicotine does not have anywhere near the potential for addiction as cigarettes. The FDA actually released a statement admitting that "nicotine replacement products" ie. gums, patches, e-cigs etc... that contain nicotine are not very addictive and have little risk for abuse.

"The changes that FDA is allowing to these labels reflect the fact that although any nicotine-containing product is potentially addictive, decades of research and use have shown that NRT products sold OTC do not appear to have significant potential for abuse or dependence."
Nicotine Replacement Therapy Labels May Change

Isolated nicotine is not likely particularly addictive. It is other substances in the cigarette such as MAO inhibitors COMBINED with nicotine that cause such severe addiction.

This professor explains the lack of research into the addictive potential of e-cigarettes

 

[DaveFoster]

Just tried 0.5 mg nicotine via gum. (1/4 of a 2 mg piece). I stupidly swallowed the first few mouthfuls and got a stomach ache for about 5 minutes.

I think that even 0.5 mg is too much.

0.25 mg would probably be an ideal dose.

 

[Drareg]

Yes cigarettes have more added that increase addictiveness. NRT have been shown to effect developing foetus.
Nicotine has high toxicity level compared to caffeine ,granted you need a lot of nicotine but you need far more caffeine. 1.5g of nicotine will be pretty harsh on you even with a load of calories, lot worse than 1.5g caffeine ,you will be wired but not as bad as nicotine. 10g nicotine being used for suicide. 1.5g niacinamide is positive for some.

Nicotine addictiveness from my anecdotal point of view cannot be compared to coffee, it's like people who claim cannabis is not addictive until they can't get it and are bordering on psychosis,they claim they are fine when asked,mad people not aware they are mad.
People who use large supplement "stacks" daily might not notice the withdrawal but somebody in their 40's who's only stimulant is nicotine behaves like anti Christ IMO.

I don't get it personally why anyone would use nicotine as a nootropic/supplement , there seems to be far better to use in modern times. It's acts as a hdac inhibitor ,lots of users don't get Alzheimers but it's replaced and trumped by niacinamide that does all that? I think nicotine is more potent hdac inhibitor which has pros/cons and puts it in the highly addictive category .

 

[Drareg]

Just tried 0.5 mg nicotine via gum. (1/4 of a 2 mg piece). I stupidly swallowed the first few mouthfuls and got a stomach ache for about 5 minutes.

I think that even 0.5 mg is too much.

0.25 mg would probably be an ideal dose.

Now we're talking!
For science !

 

[DaveFoster]

Honestly, I don't think there exists much evidence for neurological downsides to nicotine.

However, there are direct problems with blood vessel function, circulation, and connective tissue repair.

For these reasons, caffeine is a far superior substance.

I've noticed that my ability to focus has significantly dropped since increasing beta-endorphin concentrations with raloxifene, which also acts estrogenically on the brain.

There likely exists a way to mimic the effects of nicotine by lowering serotonin, estrogen, and beta-endorphins via other anti-serotonin drugs, aromatase inhibitors, and anti-opioids.

 

[Drareg]

Withdrawal from cigarettes is much different from nicotine withdrawal. Nicotine does not have anywhere near the potential for addiction as cigarettes. The FDA actually released a statement admitting that "nicotine replacement products" ie. gums, patches, e-cigs etc... that contain nicotine are not very addictive and have little risk for abuse.

"The changes that FDA is allowing to these labels reflect the fact that although any nicotine-containing product is potentially addictive, decades of research and use have shown that NRT products sold OTC do not appear to have significant potential for abuse or dependence."
Nicotine Replacement Therapy Labels May Change

Isolated nicotine is not likely particularly addictive. It is other substances in the cigarette such as MAO inhibitors COMBINED with nicotine that cause such severe addiction.

This professor explains the lack of research into the addictive potential of e-cigarettes

Im sure he is a remarkable individual but this video has a lot of obvious fallacious points.

Madison Avenue techniques are being used with those inhalers with nicotine, e cigarette companies have a lot of money behind them and will be just as ruthless with the research.

Not likely particularly addictive and severe addictive does not say much other than they are addictive, cocaine is a demthylating agent,highly addictive. The more full on hdac inhibitors are protecting from excess methylation under stress therefore they have potential for addictiveness .Phenibut and Valeriac acid have plenty of horror stories from them.
Addictiveness = severe withdrawals quickly ?
I'm just fine if a miss a few days of theanine or caffeine.

The effects of nicotine still don't merit its use for me, it doesn't compare to thiamine,t3,pregnenolone for nootropic effect.

Early ergot derivatives were poisinous ,some still can cause fibrosis of heart,lsd hallucinations, lisuride however is by all accounts incredible, how they beat nicotine is they even when poor quality were not addictive.

 

[DaveFoster]

I don't think addictiveness is an issue. Caffeine is most certainly 'addictive' due to upregulation of adenosine receptors.

The real question is: does this compound cause structural damage to the human organism, whether neurologically or physiologically?

With nicotine, I would certainly say yes, as with amphetamine.

 

[michael94]

how does is it causing damage if it's reducing inflammation and all these pathological pathways... Do you have a source for nicotine increasing structural dna damage?

 

[DaveFoster]

how does is it causing damage if it's reducing inflammation and all these pathological pathways... Do you have a source for nicotine increasing structural dna damage?

Not DNA damage; the regenerative abilities of the skin and tissues. Even Ray Peat cites this, and it's well known.

Nicotine also promotes cancer metastatis; this is for certain. Its lipolytic effect contributes to this effect.

It's a stressor, but a very mild one, and there are benefits.

Caffeine possesses most of the benefits without any of the downsides, and there are superior options to nicotine, but you could do much worse.

There may be benefits to a metabolite of nicotine, cotinine.

 

[tara]

Tangent. I'm not advocating for nicotine, but ...

coffee withdrawal is a lot easier to deal with than cold turkey nicotine

I've never had to do nicotine withdrawal, but caffeine withdrawal is not trivial for everyone.

10g nicotine being used for suicide.

Similar amounts of caffeine would be a pretty high risk too.

 

[DaveFoster]

Similar amounts of caffeine would be a pretty high risk too.

Well.