“Dopamine fasting/detox” from a bioenergetic pov

[Sapien]

Currently there is a VERY popular (thousands of videos, some have 20+ millions views) trend in the self improvement space (Promoted by Huberman, Anna Lembke, and YouTubers (Hamza, SelfImprovementPill, Alex Becker,
BetterThanYesterday, AfterSkool etc etc etc)) called “dopamine fasting”- I.e. removing as much dopamine producing activities (specifically instant gratification activities) as possible from lifestyle to “resensitise” yourself to dopamine, making boring tasks more stimulating and thus increasing productivity.

Is there any validity to this theory/protocol in y’all’s pov?


My thoughts on it: Something about it just doesn’t sit right with me, but not able to articulate why per say.

if the entire point of lowering the “dopamine baseline” is to have increased dopamine to do the hard stuff in life, wouldn’t a better protocol be to just increase dopamine (lifestyle/ diet interventions, dopamenergic drugs {microdosing etc})?

those promoting “Dopamine fasting” are essentially reccomending staring at a wall all day. Some even go as far as to say you should eat bland food in order to “resensitise” your brain to dopamine.

I realize that not everything in life can be / is always fun, but is the best way to get the hard stuff done really “dopamine fasting”?

The ones propagating this theory seem to put a lot of blame on these instant gratification activities, but I see these activities (mindless social media scrolling, etc) are more of a symptom of dopemenergic deficiency, rather than the cause. Someone in a high dopamine state does not find themselves endlessly looking at TikTok for hours to stave off the feeling of boredom.


These are just my thoughts of the topic, but maybe I’m missing something. After all, a lot of people are seeing good results from this. I want to know what the RPF thinks about “dopamine detoxing” Any insight?

 

[Sapien]

(Here is an interview with Anna Lembke, author of “dopamine nation”, to better encapsulate the concept of “dopamine fasting”) {the italics is my own doing for emphasis, btw.}










Our easy access to drugs, food, alcohol — and yes, even social media — is changing our brains.

The world has transformed “from a place of scarcity to a place of overwhelming abundance,” Stanford psychiatry professor Anna Lembke, MD, writes in the opening pages of her new book Dopamine Nation. Food, alcohol, shopping, Facebook, Instagram, Netflix, and more can now all be summoned at a moment’s notice. This transformation has led many of us to spend a bit too much time scrolling through social media or binge-watching TV — but more critically it’s changing our brain chemistry, Dr. Lembke tells us.

We’re now awash in dopamine, the molecule responsible for that feeling of euphoria you get while eating a pint of Ben & Jerry’s. And we’ve built a tolerance for it that leaves us wanting more, Dr. Lembke writes. But it’s also robbing us of our ability to enjoy life’s simple pleasures, like dinner with friends or watching the sunset, and Dr. Lembke argues it’s behind the rising rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide in the U.S.

“We’re essentially titillating ourselves to death,” she says.

Dr. Lembke breaks down the science behind this phenomenon, provides some steps we can take to dopamine detox and break our patterns of compulsive overconsumption, and shares the surprising benefits of introducing a little pain into our everyday lives.

---

Katie Couric Media: You write that we’re now surrounded by potentially addictive substances and that’s leading many of us to compulsively overconsume. What types of products or behaviors are you talking about?​

Lembke: Probably one really obvious thing is smartphones. The amount of time and intensity that we’re putting into our smartphones and digital devices really does speak to the problem of compulsive overconsumption and, in some cases, outright addiction. There’s also food and shopping. I’m seeing more and more sex addiction — especially as mediated by the internet — gambling, video gaming. Really all behaviors have become druggified and have made us vulnerable to addiction — from watching the news to engaging in social media.

Can you break down why even something as innocuous as checking your smartphone or your own habit of reading romance novels, which you discuss in the book, can affect our brain chemistry and our sense of wellbeing?​

The part of our brain that processes pleasure also processes pain. Pleasure and pain work like opposite sides of a balance. So, when we do something that’s rewarding that balance swings to the side of pleasure, but our brain will recalibrate to try to bring that down to level again — or reassert what neuroscientists call homeostasis. Our brain does that typically by downregulating our own dopamine and the production of our own dopamine transmission.

The way I explain this to my medical students is to have them imagine these little gremlins hopping on the pain side of the seesaw to bring it level again. But they don’t hop off right away, they stay on until it’s tilted down to the side of pain — that’s the comedown or the after effect. If we wait long enough, the gremlins hop off and homeostasis is restored. But if we continue to stimulate that dopamine reward pathway with that substance or behavior, then our brains again adapt. We get more and more gremlins on the pain side of the balance and we ultimately change our joy set point, so we need to continue to use that substance or behavior, not to feel good but just to feel normal.

So when we’re not using that substance or behavior or are in a dopamine-deficit state, it leads to the universal symptoms of withdrawal — anxiety, irritability, insomnia, dysphoria, intrusive thoughts, and wanting to use.

The main premise of the book is that the reason we’re seeing increased rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide all over the world (and especially in rich nations) is primarily because we’re constantly stimulating our dopamine reward pathway triggering our own compensatory mechanisms so that we’re in a dopamine-deficit state. We’re essentially titillating ourselves to death.

What are some small, actionable ways we can start to reset this balance?​

You can start with a period of abstinence, long enough to allow the brain to restore baseline homeostasis and give you some time to really look in a clear-eyed way at the true consequences of your overconsumption. After that dopamine fast, you can start to put barriers in place, so that if you do go back to using your drug of choice, you use it differently and in moderation. For instance, limiting yourself to only consuming during set periods of time or in certain settings — maybe you only consume alcohol when you’re with friends or when you’re celebrating.

I also recommend intentionally inviting physical and mental challenges into our lives. By pressing on the pain side of the balance and engaging in mildly noxious behavior, like ice-cold water baths or exercise in moderate doses, we can stimulate our own production of dopamine, instead of getting it from some external stimulus. And that’s a more enduring source of dopamine.

So would you suggest a social-media fast for those of us who may spend a bit too much time on our smartphones?​

I would. I think for people who are really hooked, a period of a month is necessary to restore homeostasis. If the fast is too short, people just experience withdrawal without getting to the point where they experience the benefits.

And during this period, be prepared to be in withdrawal for the first two weeks and to feel worse before you feel better. Hopefully, by a month, dopamine levels have been restored and then they can think more about if or how they want to reintroduce it into their lives.

Can you tell us a little more about how exposing ourselves to pain in moderation can be beneficial, and how we can practice this in our everyday lives?​

It’s the science of hormesis. The idea is that by using small to moderate doses of noxious stimuli — heat, cold, radiation, gravitational forces, food restriction — we can actually set in motion our own innate production of neurotransmitters. That can be a way to make us more resilient and build up mental calluses to withstand noxious stimuli and also to enhance our well-being by tipping the pleasure-pain balance.

When it comes to pain, everybody’s different. For my patients recovering from drug and alcohol addiction, they often need more extreme exercise or ice water baths, or more painful versions of stimuli than the average person in order to set in motion this upregulation and get some relief from their suffering. For some people, just walking for 30 minutes a day around their neighborhood would be sufficient. So it’s really just a matter of trial and error. But the main thing is to not be afraid of pain and to get out there and see what we can tolerate and what works

 

[Sapien]

ice-cold water baths

hooked

It’s the science of hormesis. The idea is that by using small to moderate doses of noxious stimuli — heat, cold, radiation, gravitational forces, food restriction — we can actually set in motion our own innate production of neurotransmitters. That can be a way to make us more resilient and build up mental calluses to withstand noxious stimuli and also to enhance our well-being by tipping the pleasure-pain balance.

extreme exercise or ice water baths

…not peaty

 

[Sapien]

For my patients recovering from drug and alcohol addiction, they often need more extreme exercise or ice water baths, or more painful versions of stimuli

Sounds barbaric

How bout some Pregnenalone?

Pregnenolone (P5) blocks stress-induced anxiety, hypertension and cocaine cravings

A great new study, and with humans too! As the study aptly demonstrates, the primary driver of cocaine cravings is likely stress and the anxiety it causes. This finding is another corroboration of the findings of the great Rat Park experiment/study on "addiction". In the study below, the...

raypeatforum.com

 

[Sapien]

The way I explain this to my medical students is to have them imagine these little gremlins hopping on the pain side of the seesaw to bring it level again

Is this what they’re teaching in medical school?

“Imagining little gremlins”?

 

[Sapien]

Can you tell us a little more about how exposing ourselves to pain in moderation can be beneficial, and how we can practice this in our everyday lives?​

It’s the science of hormesis. The idea is that by using small to moderate doses of noxious stimuli — heat, cold, radiation, gravitational forces, food restriction — we can actually set in motion our own innate production of neurotransmitters. That can be a way to make us more resilient and build up mental calluses to withstand noxious stimuli and also to enhance our well-being by tipping the pleasure-pain balance.

Newsletter On Hormesis November 2017

I just got Ray's newsletter and he discusses hormesis. Here are my quick takeaways without re-reading: His thesis is that hormesis is a false concept introduced by corporate interests to justify pollution and radiation and contamination. He says that stress over long term can introduce...

raypeatforum.com

 

[Nomane Euger]

@AllHailHaidut Hi,

the "dopamine detox"internet phenomenon has some relevance,it is not entirely accurate

if you have enough resources in your body that allow you to have a high degree of fun, motivation,enjoyment, you can do activities that elicit a high degree of pleasure for hours, however there are activities that are exhausting your potential for fun/appreciation very quickly, so I suggest if you don't have a high enough degree of fun/appreciation in your perspective, find the foods that increase it, and identify the factors that reduce it and eliminates/reduces them

i wish you fun

 

[LadyRae]

Sounds like another path to binge/restriction

 

[Limon9]

I think they just want people to be Productive Workers. 5AM start, cold shower, bike to the office, don't talk to me until I've had my coffee. Detox mindfulness emotional awareness sessions at lunchtime. Back to work.

 

[Sapien]

To me it’s another example of the culture making people at war with themselves, as a smoke screen of the real issues in society

This view of depression/ “addiction” is almost synonymous in nature with the mainstream paradigm of the obesity epidemic, in which the culture shames people as lazy and gluttonous. Thus, you are both the cause of your problem, and the only solution. The mainstream narrative of obesity paints the person as a perpetrator of their own demise, rather than a victim of nationwide decrease in metabolic health due to food supply (pufa etc).

This fad of “dopamine detoxing” is more of the same. All the blame is placed on the individual when it comes to depression and addiction, when in reality these are symptoms of dopamanergic deficiency due to stress/learned helplessness, seratonin, dysfunctional brain metabolism, etc

To further illustrate this comparison, consider how the proposed solution for both of these problems is a “fast”

 

[Immanency]

@AllHailHaidut hello,

This all seems like another example of the culture making people at war with themselves, as a smoke screen of the real issues in society

It is.

This view of depression/ “addiction” is almost synonymous in nature with the obesity epidemic, in which you are both the cause of your problem, and the only solution. The mainstream narrative of obesity paints the person as gluttonous and lazy, rather than speaking the truth about declining metabolic health due to food supply (pufa etc).

It is.

This fad of “dopamine detoxing” is more of the same. All the blame is being out on the individual when it comes to depression and addiction, when in reality these are symptoms of dopamanergic deficiency due to stress, seratonin, dysfunctional brain metabolism, etc

voluntarism is propagated harshly on social media, as if the main reason why people don't feel like they would like is their lack of will, and as if will in itself will bring people what they want, it's is a fraud, people just need to do less of the draining things, and be aware ande experience the restorative things like sun exposure, being with enjoyable people, eating optimal foods

there are influencers on youtube like David Goggins who shouts at the camera "IF YOU ARE BIG IN POOR HEALTH AND YOU DON'T FEEL WELL IT'S BECAUSE YOU ARE A LAZY PIECE OF ***t" it's quite popular.

To further illustrate this comparison, consider how the solution for both of these problems is a “fast”

they managed to make people believe that something good for the person can be unpleasant to do, whereas in reality a good part of unpleasant things that are propagated as beneficial are bad for the person;
in some rarer cases doing these unpleasant things can be beneficial in the long run.

 

[Santosh]

Currently there is a VERY popular (thousands of videos, some have 20+ millions views) trend in the self improvement space (Promoted by Huberman, Anna Lembke, and YouTubers (Hamza, SelfImprovementPill, Alex Becker,
BetterThanYesterday, AfterSkool etc etc etc)) called “dopamine fasting”- I.e. removing as much dopamine producing activities (specifically instant gratification activities) as possible from lifestyle to “resensitise” yourself to dopamine, making boring tasks more stimulating and thus increasing productivity.

Is there any validity to this theory/protocol in y’all’s pov?


My thoughts on it: Something about it just doesn’t sit right with me, but not able to articulate why per say.

if the entire point of lowering the “dopamine baseline” is to have increased dopamine to do the hard stuff in life, wouldn’t a better protocol be to just increase dopamine (lifestyle/ diet interventions, dopamenergic drugs {microdosing etc})?

those promoting “Dopamine fasting” are essentially reccomending staring at a wall all day. Some even go as far as to say you should eat bland food in order to “resensitise” your brain to dopamine.

I realize that not everything in life can be / is always fun, but is the best way to get the hard stuff done really “dopamine fasting”?

The ones propagating this theory seem to put a lot of blame on these instant gratification activities, but I see these activities (mindless social media scrolling, etc) are more of a symptom of dopemenergic deficiency, rather than the cause. Someone in a high dopamine state does not find themselves endlessly looking at TikTok for hours to stave off the feeling of boredom.


These are just my thoughts of the topic, but maybe I’m missing something. After all, a lot of people are seeing good results from this. I want to know what the RPF thinks about “dopamine detoxing” Any insight?

TLDR what are some ways to dopamine fast ?

 

[Sapien]

TLDR what are some ways to dopamine fast ?

Stare at a wall all day and eat bland food. The less dopamine the better apparently.

 

[Santosh]

Stare at a wall all day and eat bland food. The less dopamine the better apparently.

Oh dopamine fast as a way to lower dopamine ?
I thought it meant the opposite.

I want as much dopamine as I can get. My routine seems to provide me with this so I am satisfied :

- black coffee
- black coffee enemas
- 500mg DHEA / day
- At least 100g liver / day
- watching Andrew Tate's videos

 

[Sapien]

Oh dopamine fast as a way to lower dopamine ?
I thought it meant the opposite.

The theory goes that by reducing the things that provide dopamine in your life like leisure activities, in your dopamine depleted state you will be more apt to do things that were once hard i.e studying/working

 

[Sapien]

voluntarism is propagated harshly on social media, as if the main reason why people don't feel like they would like is their lack of will, and as if will in itself will bring people what they want

well said. I would also apply this to the “American Dream”/ cronie capitalism system we have here in America (although I see you live in France). We have this ideology pushed down our throat that if we simply put in the effort we too could become rich and escape the rat race.

 

[Sapien]

here are influencers on youtube like David Goggins who shouts at the camera "IF YOU ARE BIG IN POOR HEALTH AND YOU DON'T FEEL WELL IT'S BECAUSE YOU ARE A LAZY PIECE OF ***t" it's quite popular.

they managed to make people believe that something good for the person can be unpleasant to do, whereas in reality a good part of unpleasant things that are propagated as beneficial are bad for the person;

So true well said. I hate that Goggins guy. He is the epitome of everything wrong w the paradigm. eat less move more is BS. Without the steroids he’s taking, the guy would be so completely wrecked by his exercise routine (probably still is).

Second quote reminds me of how babies instinctively know what foods are good for them- go for easy digestible carbs etc and refuse to eat vegetables etc. in some ways they are smarter than most adults; haven’t been stupefied by the culture and trust their natural instincts.

Speaking of the things that we crave being good for us, I am sure you are farmiliar with the term “the French paradox” in which you Frenchies eat loads of refined carbs and saturated fats but stay lean/ low rates of heart disease. This “gluttonous diet” mystifies people, but in reality there is no paradox at all.

 

[Immanency]

So true well said. I hate that Goggins guy. He is the epitome of everything wrong w the paradigm. eat less move more is BS. Without the steroids he’s taking, the guy would be so completely wrecked by his exercise routine (probably still is).

I do not hate him as i see him a someone suffering that we can help.

Second quote reminds me of how babies instinctively know what foods are good for them- go for easy digestible carbs etc and refuse to eat vegetables etc. in some ways they are smarter than most adults; haven’t been stupefied by the culture and trust their natural instincts.

the bowl of skimmed milk and cereal in the morning is more relevant than much of what is promoted in the "heath sphere" lol.

it is stunning and it give optimism to realise how quicker health/energy can improve in a given context when you give priority to your feelings rather that being mainly influenced by your guru "du jour"

Speaking of the things that we crave being good for us, I am sure you are farmiliar with the term “the French paradox” in which you Frenchies eat loads of refined carbs and saturated fats but stay lean. This “gluttonous diet” mystifies people, but in reality there is no paradox at all.

 

[Sapien]

I do not hate him as i see him a someone suffering that we can help.

Very mature I’m not there yet lol.

and it give optimism to realise how quicker health/energy can improve in a given context when you give priority to your feelings rather that being mainly influenced by your guru "du jour"

wow great perspective, I had never thought of it that way. Does elicit optimism.

 

[EustaceBagge]

The problem with this way of thinking about dopamine is that it is all intended to boost productivity. The people that take these methods serious are people that are not content with their lives and want to move on.

The paradoxical part is that to get where you want to be you have to rid yourself of pleasure and work hard, but in the end you want to reach your goals for happiness.

So it is nothing else than delayed gratification where you invest in the future. Either that or you basically want to become a productivity bot.

Nothing wrong with all of this as its a matter of personal choice, but the more you invest in the system the less your going to go against it. In that sense what has been posted in this thread is true, it is a way of being compliant. That is what makes it so dangerous, the moment you stop caring about your pleasures your willing to do stupid ***t just to feel like you've achieved something. Imagine living in a pod while only eating bugs but still be called a good citizen. Doesn't this dopamine fasting make you the ideal candidate for such a lifestyle? Very productive.