Low Toxin Lifestyle Does Dr. Garrett Smith Have it Wrong, Is Anhydroretinol the Real Problem with vitamin A?

[Blossom]

I just stumbled upon this information this morning and think it’s important enough to share.

All Roads Lead to Anhydroretinol – Weak Therefore Strong

For those who prefer videos here’s the YouTube version:


View: https://youtu.be/ecJP2ITfkhs?si=vbBVf9n2AkNB1Rog


For me this makes much more sense than anything I’ve come across yet.

 

[charlie]

Very interesting. I am wondering if this is the clarity that we need?? Watching with Great interest.

 

[Blossom]

Very interesting. I am wondering if this is the clarity that we need?? Watching with Great interest.

I think it might be. For me personally it brings a lot of things together. Ray said something a long time ago about things making sense and understanding. I can’t remember the exact quote atm but that’s how I felt when reading her article.
My personal experience has been that I feel better eating low A so that’s what I have mainly stuck with for closing in on 6 years now but there were still a lot of things I couldn’t make sense of tbh. I have recently made some adjustments to other things in light of my homozygous CBS C699T trait and which have helped a lot and basically line up perfectly with her suggestions.

 

[charlie]

Here is a new video Meri put out this morning:

Detour!
I'm exploring all roads that lead to anhydroretinol and I came across a detour that seems to be quite significant!
Anhydroretinol (AR) can be a competitor for retinol in binding to cellular retinol binding protein (CRPB) and retinol binding protein (RBP). This might be a causative factor in the continual production of AR.
Have you ever wondered why alcoholics don't have hepatic stores of retinol? Watch the video for a hypothesis.
Enjoy the video. Simple solutions included. Always provide hope.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcww9TDo4JA

 

[mosaic01]

She has lost herself in theoretical biochemical pathways and papers that ignore the larger context.

Ingestion of retinol immediately leads to the formation of Anhydroretinol.

After ingestion of vitamin A from a single supplement or from liver, several retinoids and metabolites were detected in the plasma. These included retinol; retinyl esters; anhydroretinol; 14-hydroxy-4, 14-retro-retinol; various isomers of retinoic acid; 4-oxoretinoic acid; retinoyl β-glucuronide; and retinyl β-glucuronide

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916523292710

It is just one of the more toxic metabolites of retinol.

Increasing the intake of retinol to avoid the toxicity of anhydroretinol does not make sense, because retinol will turn into anhydroretinol and other toxic metabolites again at one point. Intake of some "fresh retinol" could displace more toxic metabolites temporarily and reduce symptoms though.

There is no clear physiological role for retinol beyond acting as a poison bacteria can use to destroy other bacteria, for example. She has not shown any practical proof that retinol is needed as some kind of vitamin substance. Whether retinol has positive roles as a signalling substance (and in cell differentiation) could be debated, but I have not seen any of such roles.

Many of her recommendations (choline, vitamin C, b-vitamins) are mostly common sense and have been discussed a lot over the years to repair the retinol detox pathways and general retinol metabolism

I doubt the other things (Liposomal Glutathione, Epsom salt baths, vitamin E, anti-candida program, Q10) are helpeful or important beyond very specific cases, like oxidative stress (where vitamin E and C would help).

Regarding her diet recommendations, I think when following a low toxin approach, one can carefully experiment with both some high quality eggs and fresh milk in order to see how the body processes it.

 

[charlie]

I think it might be. For me personally it brings a lot of things together. Ray said something a long time ago about things making sense and understanding. I can’t remember the exact quote atm but that’s how I felt when reading her article.

She brought some things together for me too.

 

[mosaic01]

14:56 she claims retinoic acid is needed to make new platelets and this guy suffered from retinoic acid deficiency and that he not only had skin issues and hair los but even started dying due to this deficiency. Seriously doubt that.

The drugs just poisoned the liver and detox pathways and made the retinol build up.

What is true is that products she mentions (baby formulas, fortified dairy, fortified products with a long shelf-life, supplements) are especially problematic because the retinol already starts desintegrating before it enters the body, and thus it will even be more toxic than retinol.

Genereux discusses this extensively. This is also the reason he warns against pasteurized milk. Even the gentle pasteurization process makes some of the retinol turn into more toxic metabolites.

So this retinol molecule is so toxic that even cooking makes it fall apart. Intense treatment, like what happened with the canned meat the sailors got for their voyages, leads to so much retinoic acid that it killed those sailors within weeks, and led to the "discovery" of scurvy (which was actually a poisoning coupled with low ascorbic acid intake).

It's great that she helps seriously sick clients, but it's difficult to extrapolate from them (especially when they are on toxic drugs) to the general population and average people doing a low toxin diet approach.

 

[valzim]

Very interesting. I am wondering if this is the clarity that we need?? Watching with Great interest.

Very interesting video. I will watch more of her work.
This would be more believable if we did not have people eating zero retinol for years and have their retinol level to basically zero. I've eaten zero retinol, except the tiny bit in red meat, for 1 year and 4 months. All good things happening even though I really have little "fresh" retinol coming in. I'd love to know if she knows about Grant avoiding Vit A for 9 years.

In relation to Vit A and measles, there are studies that show kids w/ measles giving vit A have less deaths. But there are also other studies showing that vit A supplementation directly kills more kids. Maybe anhydroretinol is worse than retinol, so having retinol can knock some of the anhydroretinol out.
It's so freaking complicated.

Also, all vitamin A starts as carotenoids. Animals turn carotenoids into retinol and all the rest. She said that carotenoids can enter and directly kill mitochondria. If this is the case then I still highly doubt any of it is necessary. There's no way it's deadly in the initial form, but needed in a downstream form.

 

[Blossom]

Good points @valzim and @mosaic01. I don’t personally think I need any as I have plenty in storage but I figured it would be good to get the input and perspective from people here.

 

[Orion]

Good points @valzim and @mosaic01. I don’t personally think I need any as I have plenty in storage but I figured it would be good to get the input and perspective from people here.

That is my main take away after watching yesterday. Is fresh retinol needed(maybe if person is in actual severe deficiency), when liver and serum are packed with retinol bound up. Can the body not use this bound retinol as fresh retinol, if this is required. I believe she states the bound retinol is packed up and not coming out though, due to enzymes, genes, mineral status...

It is too bad there isn't solid science showing whether VA is used bodily processes or not... we will all still be divided on whether it is a toxin or something required in small amounts to run metabolism/hormones, etc.

 

[mosaic01]

fresh retinol

I think with "fresh" she just means a raw food that still has actual retinol, like egg yolks, instead of the metabolites it quickly turns into. When you have lots of retinoic acid and other metabolites in circulation, taking retinol can suppress symptoms by replacing the more toxic metabolites temporarily.

 

[Orion]

Nice summary of the video here:

All Roads Lead To Anhydroretinol: The Sneaky Vitamin A metabolite that causes Vitamin A Toxicity - Page 2

Just watched Meri Arthur´s most recent video and wow there is lots of fascinating thought provoking stuff in there.https://youtu.be/ecJP2ITfkhs?si=823kQ0DSyK7wcBcA

ggenereux.blog

 

[Makrosky]

@Orion how are you doing on the lowVitA diet? I remember you started 2-4 yrs ago IIRC.

 

[Orion]

@Orion how are you doing on the lowVitA diet? I remember you started 2-4 yrs ago IIRC.

Close to 5.5 years now, I still feel like I am progressing slowly, and not backtracking.

Just always curious if there is a better way, so appreciate threads like this, alternate views to keep the learning and discussion flowing.

 

[tallglass13]

Ray Peat talked about Oxidized Vitamin A being bad, so I wonder is this the Oxidized VA?

 

[mosaic01]

Ray Peat talked about Oxidized Vitamin A being bad, so I wonder is this the Oxidized VA?

Retinol is oxidized to retinal/retinaldehyde and then to retinoic acid.

RDH10 Oxidation of Vitamin A Is a Critical Control Step in Synthesis of Retinoic Acid during Mouse Embryogenesis

Retinoic Acid (RA) is a small lipophilic signaling molecule essential for embryonic development and adult tissue maintenance. Both an excess of RA and a deficiency of RA can cause pathogenic anomalies, hence it is critical to understand the mechanisms controlling the spatial and temporal...

journals.plos.org

Retinoic Acid Synthesis and Degradation - PubMed

Retinoic acid (RA) was identified as the biologically active form of vitamin A almost 70 years ago and work on its function and mechanism of action is still of major interest both from a scientific and a clinical perspective. The currently accepted model postulates that RA is produced in two...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022316623017534

Retinol and all downstream metabolites are toxic. Retinol and retinoic acid are teratogenic.

This study showed that anhydroretinol is a less potent teratogen: Teratogenicity, tissue distribution, and metabolism of the retro-retinoids, 14-hydroxy-4,14-retro-retinol and anhydroretinol, in the C57BL/6J mouse - PubMed

"The equivalent dose of 14-HRR or AR induced a lower frequency of embryolethality and eye and axial skeletal malformations indicating that these retro-retinoids are less potent teratogens than retinol."

"The low teratogenicity observed might be due to the facts that 14-HRR and AR do not contain the terminal carboxylic group involved in binding and activation of the retinoic acid nuclear receptors and they are not metabolized to acidic retinoids."

This stuff is toxic all the way down, it's just that different metabolites have different effects.

Here's a quote from 1990 I found:

"The acne medication isotretinoin (ROACCUTAN) and the psoriasis medication etretinate (TIGASON) must not be taken during pregnancy. These retinoids are considered to be the strongest teratogens since thalidomide (CONTERGAN). The characteristic malformation pattern ("retinoid syndrome") is characterized by craniofacial malformations such as missing or too small ears as well as anomalies of the heart, thymus and central nervous system1,2 (cf. a-t 7 [1984], 59, 5 [1988], 48). Even if no significant malformations are observed, according to a prospective study of 31 children, significant intelligence deficits are to be expected in every third child if the mother has taken isotretinoin in the 1st trimester.3 In the USA, malformations similar to retinoid syndrome have been observed in isolated cases after higher doses of vitamin A (retinol) (over 25,000 IU/day). Urinary tract abnormalities were in the foreground.2,4"

"A doctor from the Ruhr area reports about premature birth in the 27th week of pregnancy and damage to the child (oesophagotracheal fistula, frenulum hypoplasia). The mother had taken 50,000 IU of vitamin A for 40 days from the first month of pregnancy (NETWORK case 4154)."

CAVE: VITAMIN A WÄHREND DER SCHWANGERSCHAFT - arznei telegramm

www.arznei-telegramm.de

 

[Hidden49]

So someone who was speaking with Meri before she was about to post this video, Meri sent them this:

"The other discovery is VA has a first pass metabolism. It gets absorbed from GIT to lymph to blood then goes to cells before going to the liver. This is how the body wants to get VA, but first pass can get broken for various reasons. If its broken we go to second pass - this is the liver releasing retinol in RBP4 - RBP4 is associated with insulin resistance, high NO, inflammation etc. If the retinol cant be made to RA there is no off switch and we get high retinol and RBP as the liver keeps churning it out. This is what causes the issues with 'detox'. Its not detox its the body desperately trying to supply the cells with RA."

"this is why people get high retinol with low VA. Because if you dont eat VA you definitely dont get first pass"




*

 

[Peater]

I always appreciate your posts @mosaic01

 

[mosaic01]

CAVE: VITAMIN A WÄHREND DER SCHWANGERSCHAFT - arznei telegramm​

This is also interesting:

"Due to the risk of malformations caused by high doses of vitamin A, the British Health Authority warns against vitamin A supplementation during pregnancy and in women of childbearing age, as well as against the consumption of liver during pregnancy.5 According to British data, liver contains an average of 13-39 mg vitamin A per 100 g, corresponding to 44,000-130,000 IU, due to supplementary feeding. In calf's liver, the most heavily contaminated liver, up to 128 mg (equivalent to 420,000 IU) of vitamin A per 100 g was found. As a medicinal product, calf's liver should therefore be subject to prescription starting with a single dose of 2.5 g"

"Daily doses of 7.5-12 mg vitamin A (25,000-40,000 IU) in the first trimester of pregnancy are considered to cause malformations in humans. This dose is reached from 10 g of calf's liver. For infants, 30 mg vitamin A (100,000 IU; from 25 g calf's liver) already poses a risk of acute intoxication.7"

You almost never see this information mentioned anymore - the increase of retinol due to supplementary feeding, the wide ranges of retinol content in liver.

I always appreciate your posts @mosaic01

Thanks!

 

[Blossom]

Nice summary of the video here:

All Roads Lead To Anhydroretinol: The Sneaky Vitamin A metabolite that causes Vitamin A Toxicity - Page 2

Just watched Meri Arthur´s most recent video and wow there is lots of fascinating thought provoking stuff in there.https://youtu.be/ecJP2ITfkhs?si=823kQ0DSyK7wcBcA

ggenereux.blog

Thank you sir!