Body-wide endothelial inflammation/damage

[InChristAlone]

Is it bulging veins in the hands and feet? This is classic estrogen excess low progesterone. Peat talks about this a lot. High estrogen high histamine and floppy veins.

 

[artist]

@Zsazsa and @Blaze I appreciate you both

@Brian Douglas i honestly am starting to suspect calcium, at least deficiency if not calcification. I have had an extremely low intake for years (like…zero calcium many times) and it seems that calcium also is needed for copper metabolism so it could be both. My blood pressure is normal (it fluctuates a lot but in a normal range, I’m actually prone to dizziness and seeing stars if anything). I have added 100% of the RDA calcium this week. In the past I have taken loooooots of K2 and I can’t tolerate it anymore, or vitamin D, or A. Probably was stupid in hindsight to take so many fat soluble vitamins with no calcium itself

Edit: I have also taken serrapeptase successfully in the past and i want to try it again but my body is so delicate right now it seemed like when I took it a couple weeks ago things got worse…will probably come back to it when I feel like calcium is under control

@sugarbabe I hear you but the thing is anything that seemingly lowers estrogen really messes me up these days. I supplemented progesterone and a bunch of anti aromatase type supps very successfully in my mid 20s but I can’t tolerate it now. If I take vitamin E my period stops. Maybe the ratios are off but my absolute quantities of estrogen must be pretty low. Boron is helping I find, it may be raising both estrogen and androgens (seems subjectively true) and it may just be that its helping with calcium…maybe lowering prolactin?

 

[artist]

I honestly do think anything that triggers FFA release (like having caffeine on an empty stomach or just getting super stressed out) leads another vein to die/appear. Niacinamide feels good but scared to keep taking it because I feel like it might drive up metabolism too much or crush estrogen…vitamin E makes me feel similarly calm and better but then it’s clearly screws up my hormones because it messes up my normally very regular cycle. The veins really are like tendrils of a plant turning brown one by one. Hypoxia or calcification or lack of structure seems to track

 

[artist]

I’m 33, my bmi is 19, I have a good amount of muscle mass while sedentary, WHR .7, my cycle is spot on, I can tolerate going a long time between meals and I usually eat like 2000 calories a day. My basic liver and kidney stats are normal, my resting heart rate is often low (ranges from 50-80) but I can’t tolerate thyroid anymore (took it for about 3 years and stopped several years ago).

 

[redsun]

@Zsazsa and @Blaze I appreciate you both

@Brian Douglas i honestly am starting to suspect calcium, at least deficiency if not calcification. I have had an extremely low intake for years (like…zero calcium many times) and it seems that calcium also is needed for copper metabolism so it could be both. My blood pressure is normal (it fluctuates a lot but in a normal range, I’m actually prone to dizziness and seeing stars if anything). I have added 100% of the RDA calcium this week. In the past I have taken loooooots of K2 and I can’t tolerate it anymore, or vitamin D, or A. Probably was stupid in hindsight to take so many fat soluble vitamins with no calcium itself

Edit: I have also taken serrapeptase successfully in the past and i want to try it again but my body is so delicate right now it seemed like when I took it a couple weeks ago things got worse…will probably come back to it when I feel like calcium is under control

@sugarbabe I hear you but the thing is anything that seemingly lowers estrogen really messes me up these days. I supplemented progesterone and a bunch of anti aromatase type supps very successfully in my mid 20s but I can’t tolerate it now. If I take vitamin E my period stops. Maybe the ratios are off but my absolute quantities of estrogen must be pretty low. Boron is helping I find, it may be raising both estrogen and androgens (seems subjectively true) and it may just be that its helping with calcium…maybe lowering prolactin?

Well the mechanism for vasoconstriction involves an increase in calcium ions in the smooth muscles cells (veins are smooth muscles). This means all vasoconstrictive hormones constrict due to eventually raising calcium ion concentration in smooth muscle. Though I doubt its that simple. It may be related to parathyroid, since more likely than not your PTH is probably elevated if you avoided dairy for awhile. And yes per aliml's post awhile back it seems calcium is helpful for copper metabolism.

 

[artist]

@redsun yeah that’s a good point about vasoconstriction. I have seen some people mention calcium helping their varicocele and things like that, which I attributed in my head to vasoconstriction. I wonder if the body could lose the ability to regulate vasodilation in a deep calcium deficiency. Need to research if POTS sufferers have any known issues with calcium. I also should probably mention that I was having panic attacks bad enough to go to the ER for a while in winter that eventually stopped and I was having a lot of POTS symptoms with dizziness. The panic attacks would often happen when I was asleep and I would wake up to a 180 bpm HR. I got that under control (seemingly by avoiding antihistamines and endotoxin foods and taking B5 briefly) but heart still tends to elevate a ton when I stand up. Another thing I never knew if it was normal is if I hold my breath for even 5 seconds my HR will start decreasing and decreasing until I take a breath again.

 

[redsun]

@redsun yeah that’s a good point about vasoconstriction. I have seen some people mention calcium helping their varicocele and things like that, which I attributed in my head to vasoconstriction. I wonder if the body could lose the ability to regulate vasodilation in a deep calcium deficiency. Need to research if POTS sufferers have any known issues with calcium. I also should probably mention that I was having panic attacks bad enough to go to the ER for a while in winter that eventually stopped and I was having a lot of POTS symptoms with dizziness. The panic attacks would often happen when I was asleep and I would wake up to a 180 bpm HR. I got that under control (seemingly by avoiding antihistamines and endotoxin foods and taking B5 briefly) but heart still tends to elevate a ton when I stand up. Another thing I never knew if it was normal is if I hold my breath for even 5 seconds my HR will start decreasing and decreasing until I take a breath again.

I used to get panic attacks (although not a severe as yours) and this is was at a time where I did acquire plenty of every other micronutrient in my diet to otherwise promote a calmer CNS, except calcium as I didnt have dairy in my diet for months. Very prone to stress reactions. Getting more calcium seems effective at reducing the frequency and severity.

Also, if you dont already, eating a much higher sodium diet tends to help POTS.

 

[artist]

@redsun okay cool well I’m feeling encouraged that maybe I’m on the right track then. Maybe I won’t complicate this too much more than adding calcium to the copper. I will make sure to keep eating plenty of salt (don’t have to tell me twice haha)

 

[deliciousfruit]

For inflammation of the endothelial cells, nothing beats Japanese knotweed root. I had the same bulging painful veins and JKW fixed me up in about a month.

It's also one of the world's most invasive plants, it can be found practically everywhere if you don't want to buy it.

 

[artist]

Thanks @deliciousfruit ! Sounds esoteric. I react weirdly to a lot of TCM stuff and herbs in general but I will look into it.

I do use horse chestnut and that works great for me (keeps fluid from accumulating in lower body) but pycnogenol, Hesperidin, quercetin, gotu kola, tart cherry, and gui zhi lin fu have all actually made me worse. Hesperidin most of all, which further suggests to me that copper is in fact a/the problem becuase I later found out Hesperidin is actually a copper chelator. Others tend to be mast cell liberators or vasodilators and quercetin is just like PMS in a pill for me (I guess my experience supports Ray’s sentiments on it). Horse chestnut relies on tannins rather than bioflavinoids which I think is why I tolerate it.

I have been back on no starch for the past week and I’m using dextrose to cut some of my need for fructose. I do feel much more stable generally without starch, which could be becuase (other than the general problems of endotoxin/dysbiosis) this way of eating apparently significantly lowers gelatinase MMP-9, which may be playing a role in the tissue destruction. My legs and lower body feel infinitely better without starch but my hands and arms are definitely still getting worse. I feel this weird tickling or cold metal sensation and look down and sure enough I’m now getting new veins down to my first knuckle. It’s like the crack in the ice…just keeps growing. I’m honestly worried about the usability of my hands in the future, they just seem so damaged and delicate now.

I’m wondering if I should add b12 or other B-vitamins back in. My gut dysbiosis is so bad that I can’t even tolerate b vitamins when I consistently eat starch because it definitely feeds gut bugs, I’ll break out and get puffy abdomen. MSM is another dysbiosis feeder for me, as well as boron. When I cut starch I can handle these things more. I wish there were more reliable ways to test true deficiencies.

 

[artist]

I always thought K lowered blood calcium (short term) by trying to put the calcium into bones.
The parathyroid gland releases PTH when blood calcium is too low.
Unbalanced K will then increase PTH, which increases blood calcium and can cause calcification, and even heart issues.
Taking K without a calcium increase in the diet can cause issues. Read about the calcium paradox.

This message from another thread intrigued me. I took megadoses of mk4 (like 5-10mg doses) for long stretches in the past, again with basically no calcium in the diet…probably like 5% RDA most days, no calcium supps. I used to be very very cavalier (desperate) about supplements and I was just constantly trying to subdue my body doing everything I could to oppose histamine (often via suppressing estrogen). I got minor but noticeable hair loss during that time that I actually blamed on the k2 but I thought maybe the mechanism was hormonal like sex hormones, but maybe it was hormonal like PTH. I had heard of a number of anecdotes of k2 causing hair loss in women which is the only reason I connected it at all. My hair has steadily come back over the past couple of years, it looks completely fine now although I still think it could be better. If it’s the result of calcification this could connect some dots for me.

Would it be dangerous to use something like famotidine to artificially lower PTH in the face of a genuine calcium deficiency? Or would that be helpful

 

[artist]

I also have to admit here, I did something stupid but maybe eye opening that is making me consider backing off copper and going entirely in on the calcium/cofactors thing. This week I have tried applying copper sulfate to my skin with DMSO (there is a thread posted by @haidut about this being used to treat ALS somewhere on here). After doing this..I wouldn't be surprised if this is tantamount to injecting copper. I followed the dosing recommendations that are used for actual copper injections in hospital settings, 4 mg over 2 hours. I got a big adrenaline and dopamine rush very quickly, and then after a few hours went to bed, thinking I have very cleverly defeated my "bad digestion" in getting copper into my body. Then, I woke up with serious back pain. I never, ever get back pain. I actually thought it was my kidneys at first, but I was eventually able to tell that it was my erector spinae muscles up and down my spine. I was really worried, the pain kept lasting all day, and I knew it was from the copper. Then I took an extra dose of magnesium, and it went away within 30 minutes. Clearly whatever I had done had driven up the need for magnesium severely and caused some kind of spasms in my back muscles.

Maybe this is just too much too soon with the copper and the apparent adrenaline caused the back pain, and it's of course a risky thing to do in the first place (although if my problem really is just rank copper deficiency, then this would probably be the best solution.) Somehow though, this reaction makes me suspect that my body may just be rate limiting how much copper it accepts for a good reason. Especially since my veins haven't been getting better, or even stabilizing, in the aftermath. They're just getting worse. Perhaps the reason calcium is needed to store copper is because copper drives up calcium functions like bone formation, and in a deficiency, the body is trying to keep a balance by keeping copper out of the blood. Perhaps by doing this I even caused calcification, but at best it did nothing helpful. This could also explain why chelated copper "wasn't working" for me, because with inorganic copper is harder for the body to control absorption. I believe the chelated stuff is dealt with lower in the gut and can be caught/excreted by metallothionein, but inorganic can go directly into the blood via passive diffusion. Not 100% sure about that and might need to double check. Overall though, assuming I didn't cause some kind of massive permanent damage (hopefully I didn't like....decalcify my spine instantly), I think this has been beneficial in that it's helped me put to bed the idea that this is a "copper problem" as such, even though that's actually super disappointing because that means the solution is way more complex.

 

[InChristAlone]

What is your diet like? You mentioned consuming a pound of cantaloupe, do you regularly eat lots of fruit? Fruit eaters unfortunately are not all that healthy. At least from what I can gather from vegans and mainly fruit eaters from here on the forum. Not to mention the pectin can break down into methanol in the gut. Methanol then breaks down into formaldehyde which directly oxidizes our LDL and can cause atherosclerosis, and there is link with MS and other autoimmune conditions.
Aside from that the stress involved in trying to figure out what the main issue is I think is damaging. I know because I went down that road earlier this year and it only caused severe anxiety. Copper is higher in women FYI, true deficiency causes anemia. The best thing I've done for my health is just eat whatever I want, when I want, no food rules. No nutrition rules.

 

[artist]

@sugarbabe the big amount of cantaloupe was unusual for me, but I usually have fruit or juice in addition to main meals that are meat and vegetables. I’ve attempted to have “no rules” many times, but it’s not really my decision sadly. In addition to histamine intolerance that is about 20-years standing now (although much improved in the last year or so), I can’t tolerate dairy, and I can’t tolerate starch. I have experimented for months at a time numerous times, done antimicrobials, low fat, moderate fat, rice, potatoes, corn tortillas, whatever… it just gives me depression, acne, bloating etc. When my veins started giving out in December I was eating a more mixed diet that included starch (not gluten tho, I weirdly get thyroid pain from it pretty fast)

My dad actually has pretty advanced MS, although funnily enough he doesn’t like sweet food at all and never touches fruit.

I do think stress is contributing and usually once my stress gets this bad I will relax on food rules more, but the only play I really have is to bring back starch and that just makes my lower body veins start hurting within a day. At this point I’m trying to just make sure I hit calorie minimums. I’m not avoiding anything categorically besides the big histamine triggers like orange juice, soy sauce etc, and then starch.

I’m very open to being totally wrong about copper, but I wish I could figure out how molybdenum could have triggered this both times otherwise. Maybe an increase in xanthine oxidase? Uric acid? A general increase in metabolism..

 

[Ben.]

Random question. How is your oral health? Any issues with gums?

 

[artist]

@Ben. Right now my oral health is pretty stable…I use oregano oil on a toothbrush if my teeth feel anything less than sterile so it may only be due to that diligence. I thought maybe I was having increased gum recession but seemingly not. I’ve had weak enamel for a long time though

Edit: my teeth also move/click around a lot which I’ve long attributed to MCAS, they have gone from straight to crooked/cross bitten on one side in the last 10 years

 

[artist]

The fact that the one known OTC drug that lowers PTH is famotidine has me wondering if there is a connection between my elevated histamine/unstable mast cells and my potential calcium problems. I don’t usually take h2 blockers becuase of concern over the stomach acid lowering, but I do keep famotidine around and I take it occasionally when I’m having a bad flare in the hopes it will help. Does anyone know if histamine itself increases PTH? This would actually explain a lot. I think I’m gonna go ahead and try using famotidine (low/normal dose) for a few days and see if I notice anything

Wish I didn’t have to wait so long to get blood work and find out if my PTH is even elevated, but if histamine has negative effects on calcium metabolism then I’m definitely in that category

 

[InChristAlone]

@sugarbabe the big amount of cantaloupe was unusual for me, but I usually have fruit or juice in addition to main meals that are meat and vegetables. I’ve attempted to have “no rules” many times, but it’s not really my decision sadly. In addition to histamine intolerance that is about 20-years standing now (although much improved in the last year or so), I can’t tolerate dairy, and I can’t tolerate starch. I have experimented for months at a time numerous times, done antimicrobials, low fat, moderate fat, rice, potatoes, corn tortillas, whatever… it just gives me depression, acne, bloating etc. When my veins started giving out in December I was eating a more mixed diet that included starch (not gluten tho, I weirdly get thyroid pain from it pretty fast)

My dad actually has pretty advanced MS, although funnily enough he doesn’t like sweet food at all and never touches fruit.

I do think stress is contributing and usually once my stress gets this bad I will relax on food rules more, but the only play I really have is to bring back starch and that just makes my lower body veins start hurting within a day. At this point I’m trying to just make sure I hit calorie minimums. I’m not avoiding anything categorically besides the big histamine triggers like orange juice, soy sauce etc, and then starch.

I’m very open to being totally wrong about copper, but I wish I could figure out how molybdenum could have triggered this both times otherwise. Maybe an increase in xanthine oxidase? Uric acid? A general increase in metabolism..

Sorry to hear about your Dad, did he smoke? Or use diet soda? Those two things are also significant methanol sources. Canned fruits and vegetables in general, tomatoes especially, convert to methanol sitting on the shelf. People who don't consume any alcohol are at greater risk, because ethanol prevents methanol from turning into formaldehyde.

Yeah I can see that it's very hard to push through if letting go and eating whatever causes more pain. The same could be said for anorexia though. When they let go and consume whatever they want they get massive swelling, bloating, nausea, acid reflux, fatigue, possible achiness. It's not fun, but they have to go through it. Starches are really great at filling glycogen otherwise you likely get more adrenaline /cortisol from the blood sugar not lasting long, then when you do consume it it can lower cortisol making you feel like crap. I have never tried completely starch free for long but I have a history of undereating and when I commit to recovery I do get more aches and pains for a while. The longer the restriction of foods the longer the recovery can take.

 

[Blaze]

My intention was not to attack your kindness, but report that I had to deal with a lot of "you are imagining things" in my life and to reseach everything by myself.

I admit that I tend to skip some details for the sake of prioritizing the essential info I am trying to transmit, and apologize for that.

No apology needed.... you did nothing wrong, and thanks for the manner in which you responded.

You actually make a great point that very often when we seek help with a physical symptom, if it is difficult to determine a physical cause, sadly it is very common to be dismissed and called a mental issue.

 

[artist]

Sorry to hear about your Dad, did he smoke? Or use diet soda? Those two things are also significant methanol sources. Canned fruits and vegetables in general, tomatoes especially, convert to methanol sitting on the shelf. People who don't consume any alcohol are at greater risk, because ethanol prevents methanol from turning into formaldehyde.

Yeah I can see that it's very hard to push through if letting go and eating whatever causes more pain. The same could be said for anorexia though. When they let go and consume whatever they want they get massive swelling, bloating, nausea, acid reflux, fatigue, possible achiness. It's not fun, but they have to go through it. Starches are really great at filling glycogen otherwise you likely get more adrenaline /cortisol from the blood sugar not lasting long, then when you do consume it it can lower cortisol making you feel like crap. I have never tried completely starch free for long but I have a history of undereating and when I commit to recovery I do get more aches and pains for a while. The longer the restriction of foods the longer the recovery can take.

Yeah he was a heavy smoker for decades. Drinker too, though! (Although not very heavily) He still drinks and I often worry it could make him worse, but maybe not. That’s interesting, I didn’t know there was a connection…

On your second point, I really want to agree in theory, and I’ve tried to apply this theory many times, but in practice it just falls apart for me. I have pushed through with starch, for months, multiple times, and I always just get sicker and sicker. The only periods of health improvement I’ve had in my life have been the periods when I avoided starch. I have some kind of intractable dysbiosis I think (if not systemic infection). It’s definitely not ideal to eat this way and I would not prescribe it to anyone but it’s really the only thing I can do until they find a reliable way to fix whatever is causing my symptoms.

There is a problem with excess restriction for sure, and I’m sorry to hear you’ve been going through that. I find pushing through works with other categories of things, like histamine, salycilates etc. Starch just doesn’t work for me.