Beyond DHT (article)

[1kT]

Some of you might enjoy this article.

http://anabolicapex.com/2017/02/01/beyond-dht/

 

[LeeLemonoil]

Great article! Is the author of that write-up on this board (or the anabolic-apex-host?)

 

[Wagner83]

Great article! Is the author of that write-up on this board (or the anabolic-apex-host?)

As far as I know the author is the OP, aka "Marcel" .

 

[johnwester130]

but does it cause baldness ?

no one seems to know

 

[mirc12354]

As far as I know the author is the OP, aka "Marcel" .

The site is in TubZy's signature....

 

[Wagner83]

Tubzy posted an article on allopreg on Marcel's site, pretty sure he posted on area1255 blog (hair loss) too.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

The site is in TubZy's signature....

DHT does "cause" hairloss when you're genetically predisposed, yes. "Caused" is asterics because how the mechanism really works in detail is as of yet unknown - DHT or one of it's metabolites is involved however, otherwise Finsateride would not work preventing it.
Keep in mind though that this is no reason to not strive for an androgenic metabolisms! Hairloss might be unpleasant to those affetcte, but it is often not so negatively regarded by those around you. And DHT's action on hairloss is in these scalp tissues only! It's foolish to try to reduce it systemically, it's outright dangerous. Keep away from stuff like Finasteride etc.

 

[TubZy]

Tubzy posted an article on allopreg on Marcel's site, pretty sure he posted on area1255 blog (hair loss) too.

Yeah, I write for apex but I dont own it. Marcel aka OP does. I did however do one post a while back for Area 1255, it wasn't just area 1255 as the post was on multiple forums (similar to my post in MPB experimental treatments thread on here). I am however no longer affiliated with area 1255 since a long time now.

A lot of the ideas I'm writing about is based on Peats and Haiduts stuff just condensed down and an organized form. Also, along with other topics from my personal experience too.

But the topics in general on apex follow peats ideas.

 

[tankasnowgod]

DHT does "cause" hairloss when you're genetically predisposed, yes. "Caused" is asterics because how the mechanism really works in detail is as of yet unknown - DHT or one of it's metabolites is involved however, otherwise Finsateride would not work preventing it.

I disagree with this line of thinking. First of all, all drugs do many things, so even when Finasteride can prevent or stop hairloss, or even regrow hair, that does not mean that DHT caused the hairloss in the first place. I think the mechanism can just as easily be explained by metabolism. In a vastly oversimplified example, say your body only has enough "excess" energy to maintain sexual function/ fertility or hair. The body may opt to preserve fertility over hair, as it "knows" that this gives it a better chance to survive and replicate. However, lets say the person's sexual organs are destroyed through an outside force (either a drug like finasteride, or castration). Since the body now can't direct that energy towards maintaining sexual function and fertility, it all gets routed to the hair, and regrowth occurs.

There are also plenty of examples of people losing hair when going through an extremely stressful situations. Think of people being "treated" with radiation or chemo for cancer, the men that volunteered for the Minnesota Starvation Experiment, or stories of Holocaust survivors. Hairloss is common, as is complete disappearance of libido. Certainly doesn't sound like DHT and genetic disposition is the cause to me.

The second problem I have is pretty much any "genetic" explanation being floated, especially without any genetic information. The "thrifty gene" is a nice, convenient explanation for the obesity epidemic, cause food used to be scarce. But if we were going through an anorexia epidemic, a "leaness gene" could just as easily be invoked, as being a lean would be advantageous when it came to finding and hunting food.

 

[johnwester130]

I disagree with this line of thinking. .

But women do not lose their hair, even if they are incredibly unhealthy.

 

[tankasnowgod]

But women do not lose their hair, even if they are incredibly unhealthy.

I can never tell when people are being sarcastic nowadays.

If women never lose their hair, why are there over 13,500 articles that come up on Pubmed when searching for "Female Pattern Hair Loss," especially since this is a condition that can be diagnosed simply by looking at a woman's head? female pattern hair loss - PMC - NCBI

 

[LeeLemonoil]

I disagree with this line of thinking. First of all, all drugs do many things, so even when Finasteride can prevent or stop hairloss, or even regrow hair, that does not mean that DHT caused the hairloss in the first place. I think the mechanism can just as easily be explained by metabolism. In a vastly oversimplified example, say your body only has enough "excess" energy to maintain sexual function/ fertility or hair. The body may opt to preserve fertility over hair, as it "knows" that this gives it a better chance to survive and replicate. However, lets say the person's sexual organs are destroyed through an outside force (either a drug like finasteride, or castration). Since the body now can't direct that energy towards maintaining sexual function and fertility, it all gets routed to the hair, and regrowth occurs.

There are also plenty of examples of people losing hair when going through an extremely stressful situations. Think of people being "treated" with radiation or chemo for cancer, the men that volunteered for the Minnesota Starvation Experiment, or stories of Holocaust survivors. Hairloss is common, as is complete disappearance of libido. Certainly doesn't sound like DHT and genetic disposition is the cause to me.

The second problem I have is pretty much any "genetic" explanation being floated, especially without any genetic information. The "thrifty gene" is a nice, convenient explanation for the obesity epidemic, cause food used to be scarce. But if we were going through an anorexia epidemic, a "leaness gene" could just as easily be invoked, as being a lean would be advantageous when it came to finding and hunting food.

"Metabolism" is an as broad and oversimplified concept as DHT causes hairloss - I said that in inherited MPB DHT is involved in the mechanism that causes hairloss, not that it is the one main culprit - it's part of an intricate inner-tissue feedback of steroids, enzymes, degradationn glucoroniation and many more related processes.

Your stress/radiation example does not falsify the DHT/Fin evidence. It only means that many ore things can cause hairloss, I've never dienied. Of course radiation, inflammation and so fort can cause tissue to die off and thus loose hairl and follicles.

And there are genetic aspects to many diseases. It' proven beyond doubt - again, it's too complex too fully undestand as of today. Epigenetic mechanisms is only the surface of that particular topic.

 

[tankasnowgod]

"Metabolism" is an as broad and oversimplified concept as DHT causes hairloss - I said that in inherited MPB DHT is involved in the mechanism that causes hairloss, not that it is the one main culprit - it's part of an intricate inner-tissue feedback of steroids, enzymes, degradationn glucoroniation and many more related processes.

While I agree they are both oversimplified concepts, there is no evidence of a genetic MPB DHT mechanism, either. Any success that Finasteride may have certainly doesn't prove than concept, either.

 

[TubZy]

I disagree with this line of thinking. First of all, all drugs do many things, so even when Finasteride can prevent or stop hairloss, or even regrow hair, that does not mean that DHT caused the hairloss in the first place. I think the mechanism can just as easily be explained by metabolism. In a vastly oversimplified example, say your body only has enough "excess" energy to maintain sexual function/ fertility or hair. The body may opt to preserve fertility over hair, as it "knows" that this gives it a better chance to survive and replicate. However, lets say the person's sexual organs are destroyed through an outside force (either a drug like finasteride, or castration). Since the body now can't direct that energy towards maintaining sexual function and fertility, it all gets routed to the hair, and regrowth occurs.

There are also plenty of examples of people losing hair when going through an extremely stressful situations. Think of people being "treated" with radiation or chemo for cancer, the men that volunteered for the Minnesota Starvation Experiment, or stories of Holocaust survivors. Hairloss is common, as is complete disappearance of libido. Certainly doesn't sound like DHT and genetic disposition is the cause to me.

The second problem I have is pretty much any "genetic" explanation being floated, especially without any genetic information. The "thrifty gene" is a nice, convenient explanation for the obesity epidemic, cause food used to be scarce. But if we were going through an anorexia epidemic, a "leaness gene" could just as easily be invoked, as being a lean would be advantageous when it came to finding and hunting food.

x2, although I believed the DHT theory for a long time and unfortunately was obsessed with lowering it for hair purposes. I think finasteride works through the purpose of it being basically a synethic progesterone (or closely resembling the structure). As we know there are major differenences between synthetic progesterone and natural in terms of side effects and outcome. So possibly through the healing and repairing property of progesterone.

I however dont believe in the DHT theory anymore after experimenting with many other things that don't effect DHT or any hormone for that matter. I do know that MPB was jump started through oral steroids. It could have been from pushing metabolism way too hard.

 

[TubZy]

We can put an end to this conversation if @haidut would just get us some DHT powder so we can try it topically haha!

DHEA topically should theoretically cause significant hair loss being the precursor to DHT but it doesnt (it actually improves hair and skin).

 

[haidut]

We can put an end to this conversation if @haidut would just get us some DHT powder so we can try it topically haha!

DHEA topically should theoretically cause significant hair loss being the precursor to DHT but it doesnt (it actually improves hair and skin).

The 11-keto DHT is basically the same as DHT but with a much longer half life. The claims about DHT and hair loss are based exclusively on its androgenicity and in that respect there is no difference between 11-keto DHT and regular DHT. I did not see reports of hair loss from 11-keto DHT and also the few human studies with actual DHT using anywhere from 25mg up to 100mg daily did not report a single case of increased hair loss. So, to me the direct role of DHT as a cause in hair loss is largely disproven just as it is in prostate cancer. It may have an association with hair loss, but just like cholesterol it is probably there to repair the damage caused by something else. Even mainstream medicine has wizened up to the fact that DHT is not a direct cause and now says the issue is "genetic" and DHT is just the "trigger".
My personal guess is that one of the unsaturated -diol metablites of DHEA is the primary trigger of hair loss. Especially, the delta-5-androstenediol also known as hermaphrodiol, is what I suspect is a prime cause in MPB and prostate cancer.
5-Androstenediol - Wikipedia
https://web.wpi.edu/Pubs/ETD/Available/etd-102707-170420/unrestricted/JGroufThesis.pdf

I suspect the build up of 5-androstenediol from DHEA is a direct result of suboptimal metabolism characterized by excessive reductive environment and high estrogen. In such an environment, DHEA can serve as an emergency oxidizing agent generating 5-androstenediol as a direct metabolite. Similar things happen with pyruvate being used as an oxidizing agent when NADH levels are too high, which generates lactate in the process.
DHT often gets shuttled to areas of high estrogenic activity to control cellular proliferation caused by estrogen and estrogenic metabolites. Same thing happens in breast in prostate cancer - these patients have high DHT levels in breast and prostate but it is there to control estrogen when progesterone is low or not available at all. The 5-androstenediol is a potent estrogen, and a much potent estrogen than it is an androgen. So, a build up of 5-androstenediol will also tend to cause local accumulation of DHT to control the damage and thus DHT gets the blame.
Keep in mind that if androgenic steroids were the direct cause of MPB then androgen receptor antagonists would be the cure for MPB. I am not aware of successful trials, animal or human, with AR antagonists like flutamide showing inhibition of hair loss or regrowth of hair. This failure of androgen receptor antagonist IMO completely disprove the role of DHT in MPB. The (poor) prostate cancer patients who got flutamide did not experience even a hair-width of regrowth (pun in tended). And the association of MPB and prostate cancer is well known. So, whatever is causing the hair loss is likely not a strong (or at all) androgen receptor agonist like DHT.
Finally, niacinamide, which promotes androgen signalling and binding of DHT to the androgen receptor not only does not increase hair loss but it being studies for hair regrowth.
Just my 2c.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

My personal guess is that one of the unsaturated -diol metablites of DHEA is the primary trigger of hair loss. Especially, the delta-5-androstenediol also known as hermaphrodiol, is what I suspect is a prime cause in MPB and prostate cancer.

Any known ways to reduce DHEA's conversion to this?

 

[haidut]

Any known ways to reduce DHEA's conversion to this?

Well, having higher NAD/NADH ratio, better metabolism, higher thyroid function, etc. So, methylene blue, niacinamide, thyroid, progesterone, etc.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Well, having higher NAD/NADH ratio, better metabolism, higher thyroid function, etc. So, methylene blue, niacinamide, thyroid, progesterone, etc.

Most of us here should be safe then! :) Love the name btw! Hermaphrodiol, lol. Almost as good as the "Sonic Hedgehog gene"!

 

[1kT]

Great article! Is the author of that write-up on this board (or the anabolic-apex-host?)

Thanks. Yup that's me.

5-androstenediol

Healthy men have higher serum levels of adiol and adiol-3S in this study.