How Does MDMA Make One High Through Serotonin?

[narouz]

Peat has said that some people...did he specify women?...
experience intense sexual cravings
coming from a chemistry of high estrogen/serotonin.

I've wondered about this over the years (of reading/listening to Peat).
I had a gfriend for a long time.
And she had a girl friend.
They shared an intense Need for sex
especially at certain times of the month.
So much so for the latter that when "interviewing" potential boyfriends
she would pin them down and make them understand
that at certain phases of the month
they Must give her sex Every day.

And then my guy friend.
He tries to get his wife to have some kind of sex like 3 times per day.
Actually, he's gone to a protocol (ha! )
where he masturbates in the morning,
so that he won't be crushed if she turns him down at lunch.
But his need for sex is really a Need.
He's now on a lot of meds....

Just tossing this up for discussion.
Kinda fascinated me over the years, wondering about it....

 

[pboy]

...doped happiness...

It's an unusual turn of phrase, pb.
By "doped," do you mean as in dopamine?

I believe so...very likely, its kind of just a feel, but im pretty sure it is dopamine
though im sure theres some DHEA and other stuff probably in there as well

 

[Curt :-)]

@pboy, no one is suggesting MDMA is harmless or healthy. Chill out.
@such, you've obviously never used (real) MDMA. Ain't it funny how people who don't use anyways know all about it, yet the users are apparently the ignorant ones.

Love the egos on this forum.

 

[jaa]

I've had experiences similar to pboy described on MDMA. It was usually poorly sourced and speedy MDMA, in doses way higher than should be taken, while drinking way too much alcohol. But, I've also experienced blissful happiness on better quality MDMA in more moderate doses, without alcohol, in friendly settings, where almost none of what you wrote applies. I would certainly classify such experiences as beneficial, and feel they have helped me grow as a person similarly to positive psychedelic trips.

FWIW, I've also experienced waves of a lot of the negative stuff in your post on cannabis.

 

[aquaman]

The whole empathetic thing, I hate to say it (but don't), is actually a bad thing. Not that empathy is bad...but theres a reason you have the desire to avoid certain people or things and not leak energy towards them...over time such interactions not only drain you but fill your mind and life with non optimal, dragging down, weakening things.

You can't write judgements about things you've never experienced! You sound like VoS!

It's like me telling you how it feels to go to the moon, even though i've not been (yet).

MDMA is being studies as an effective treatment for PTSD. I think it will be very effective based on my actual experience of having taken MDMA plenty of times.

 

[aquaman]

The whole empathetic thing, I hate to say it (but don't), is actually a bad thing.

I can testify to this personally. MDMA makes it easy for you to develop inappropriate emotional bonds. Think falling in "love" with someone who's completely wrong for you.

Nonsense.

 

[Such_Saturation]

@pboy, no one is suggesting MDMA is harmless or healthy. Chill out.
@such, you've obviously never used (real) MDMA. Ain't it funny how people who don't use anyways know all about it, yet the users are apparently the ignorant ones.

Love the egos on this forum.

Already you're doing what you just criticized as I have not mentioned personal ingestion. But I think unreliable sources are something we have to deal with as long as prohibitionist policy is around.

 

[miko]

How can you people take things like MDMA with all that Ray Peat wrote about serotonin. I just don't understand it... I know you feel good on it, but it's drug, illegal substance (many of people feel good on amphetamine, cocaine, opiates etc.). What about all that excitotoxicity, stress hormones, and ATP damping effects? It's strong serotonin drug...

"MDMA toxicity and pathological consequences: a review about experimental data and autopsy findings."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20420577

 

[aquaman]

Peat mentions taking regular small doses of LSD "if I lived in a country where it was legal". I thought they acted in similar ways?

Most (non-scientific) people say MDMA reduces Serotonin, at least that is why people say you get the down feeling a few days after.

 

[Brian]

My sister had an interesting experience with an MDMA therapist awhile ago. She took what I assume to be high quality MDMA for the purpose of having "a meeting with herself" as the therapist claimed. She took 125 and then a 75mg dose after a few hours under his watch and note taking. It strangely effected her for an abnormally long duration both times. She was basically "high" for at least 6 hours. She reacted very intensely as well. Lots of yelling and blowing of what felt like 20 years worth of steam related to traumas. She experienced very little of the "unconditional self love" that is usually expected. For the next few days she felt very low with tightness in her chest and depressive. The therapist had her take 5-htp as well, which I don't know was necessarily helpful. I told her to focus on dopamine raising activities (higher protein/calorie meals, lot of sunshine)

But she was back to her old self within a few days and felt the "blowing off steam" experience left her more integrated and self aware. She then did a group Wachuma ceremony about a week later under the guidance of a Peruvian shaman, which was a very positive and transcendent experience for her. It was very contradictory towards a scientific, reductionist worldview as well. She said the consciousness of the group mixed and swirled together. Not a hallucinogenic experience, but It was a few hours of feeling each other's deep, hidden emotions and giving compassion and unconditional love back and forth.

The lasting effect for her was a sense of the reality of everything being connected and a sense of empowerment, less fight and flight over trivial things. In the last few weeks she has also been having chakra opening experiences until this last weekend during a yoga class she felt her entire line of chakras open up at once. She says she is feeling much more powerful and future oriented with confidence like she can never remember feeling.

So, in her experience these things overall had a very positive effect, but definitely not something to be messing with recreationally and frequently without intention and supervision of someone with a lot of experience and healing intention. The psychological and physical effects of her sexual trauma from molestation as a 10 year old seem to be for the most part completely overcome, which is something years of traditional counseling and a healthy lifestyle was never able to quite accomplish.

So it seems at least in my sister's experience that these substances such as MDMA and Wachuma may be an option worth considering for those who are struggling with the lasting effects of deep traumas if done with the right preparation, environment, and guidance. Not as a way to "get high" or escape. On the contrary as a way to confront.

 

[aquaman]

Yeah that's exactly what I'd expect from good use of MDMA and therapy

Great to hear!

 

[TeslaFan]

I see some people ask how can serotonin make you feel good?

Two reasons I see:

1.) Feeling good is a relative and subjective term. Some people like the feeling of "letting go", being relaxed, giving up, "unconditional love", etc. To others, this feels like defeat.

2.) It's a function of time. Serotonin does make one feel "good" initially. This is one of its purposes as a stress-modulating substance. In order to prepare a person for starvation / restrain / sickness, etc, serotonin is a graceful way to slow down metabolism and simulate comfort. However, in the long term, serotonin causes apathy and learned helplessness -- and this will eventually lead to depression.

When body increases serotonin as a response to stress, it does it as a metabolic modulator. In a less supportive environment it is OK to slow down. When we engineer it ourselves, to feel "better", we bury our heads in the sand.

 

[pboy]

yea just another way of saying similar to what I wrote and feel

well said homie

I think it would be good for PTSD and other similar things that have to do with people engaging in violence...in fact, I think all politicians and corporate sharks...like most people, anyone who isn't intelligent enough to live a true harmonious life, not only would it maybe benefit them, but it would benefit all of us actual good people, cause then theyd lose their anger and fear and be more submissive...like they deserve to have high serotonin, and rightfully so
no one with corrupt or foolish morals or actions should be allowed to act like or think they are some kind of leader or given any kind of power

and btw to the others, im not dogging on empathy or feeling good (tho I doubt the after effects are worth it) I just see the long term picture of it...like it leaves you open to being complacent to non optimal or toxic situations and people, and mental propaganda and stuff like that, and im sure infections

and because we are all connected in this world, share the same space and air and stuff, if you are complacent or go along with a ***t situation of people taking advantage of and polluting, in any form, then you are actually perpetrating the problems onto good innocent people, now and in the future...so theres no innocence just because you happen to 'feel good'...you have to be smart and call out bs for what it is and refuse to support it, and seek to do away with it...same goes for certain aspects and qualities of people, you cant let it just happen and support it, because if leads them no where, boosts their toxic qualities, and eventually as they live it well leak out into society and future generations

 

[jaa]

How can you people take things like MDMA with all that Ray Peat wrote about serotonin. I just don't understand it... I know you feel good on it, but it's drug, illegal substance (many of people feel good on amphetamine, cocaine, opiates etc.). What about all that excitotoxicity, stress hormones, and ATP damping effects? It's strong serotonin drug...

"MDMA toxicity and pathological consequences: a review about experimental data and autopsy findings."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20420577

For the same reason I can eat a PUFA laden food every now and again, or have a drink, or participate in a game that's a bit too strenuous, or rent a motorbike while on vacation. Sometimes I find it worthwhile to stray outside the lines of what I believe to be healthy. It' all good as long as I don't do it too much (and
signficantly decrease my odds of living to see a super AI )

 

[narouz]

My sister had an interesting experience with an MDMA therapist awhile ago.

I didn't know there was such a thing!

MDMA is Ecstasy...right?
Back in the day, the days of my hippie youth,
they had "MDA."
At least that is what it was called.

It was an amazingly great feeling.
But...I put it into the same personal category as cocaine--
ecstatic, to be sure, but to me...goin' down the wrong road...

 

[miko]

I was on many SSRI drugs for my depression - none of them caused an true antidepressant effect for me - only blunting of emotions, dulled my passion - you can live your life like many of people on SSRI drugs, but it's not a real life. Real life is full range of emotions, passion, motivation - you need dopamine not serotonin.

I do not want to sound moralizing, it's everybody's life and choices. But from what I have read in Peat articles - serotonin is one of the "Peat's bad substances" :)

 

[jaa]

Sure, and I think Peat is correct, but he may not be. Also, I don't think anyone is advocating going out and taking MDMA every day. That would be insane. If you think taking MDMA once or twice a year is going to blunt your emotions, or passions or motivation, or in any way negatively affect your life (aside from maybe some lingering effects the day or two after) you're just plain wrong. If you think the experience of MDMA would be unpleasant, then for sure don't take it. It won't be worth it. But for people who do enjoy the experience, the minor health setbacks can be worth it.

 

[Vinero]

MDMA does not make one high through serotonin. MDMA increases a whole lot of other things as well such as dopamine,noradrenaline, oxytocin, DHEA, Cortisol and probably other things as well. The elevated serotonin actually contributes to the side effects like vomiting, confusion and agitation. Most users refer to this as the come-up. I've seen users load up on 5-htp, l-tryptophan and other things hoping to increase serotonin and enhance the eurphoria of the roll. Big mistake, increasing serotonin actually prevents rolling and the euphoria and severely increases side-effects like confusion and agitation. Also increased risk of serotonin syndrome. I think it you can have a great time on it but I wouldn't take it if you are already having problems with excess serotonin, very risky.

 

[lexis]

https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/m ... tml#damage

High doses of MDMA have a two-phase effect on serotonergic functioning, first causing acute decreases, then partial recovery, then chronic decreases. For example, after a single dose of 10 mg/kg MDMA to a rat, release of 5-HT leads to depletion of tissue levels of 5-HT and its metabolite 5-HIAA within 3 hours of dosing (Schmidt 1987; Stone, 1987b). Approximately 6 hours later, levels begin to return to normal, but this recovery is not sustained. About 24 hours after dosing, 5-HT levels begin a second, sustained decrease and remain significantly lower than baseline 2 weeks later. This sustained decrease is thought to be associated with axonal

 

[EIRE24]

So does Cocaine increase serotonin as well then?