Making My Own Liposomal Vitamin C

[yerrag]

Never mind the hydrogenated ones! or partially hydrolyzed lecithins, you want DE-OILED.
I digged deeper and there is a but..
big but! the hydrolysis process leaves bad Lysophosphatidylcholine :
Lysophosphatidylcholine (LPC) is a bioactive proinflammatory lipid
They result from partial hydrolysis of phosphatidylcholines, which removes one of the fatty acid groups. The hydrolysis is generally the result of the enzymatic action of phospholipase A2.[2] Among other properties, they activate endothelial cells during early atherosclerosis[3][4] and stimulate phagocyte recruitment when released by apoptotic cells.[5] Moreover, LPCs can be used in the lab to cause demyelination of brain slices, to mimic the effects of demyelinating diseases such as multiple sclerosis.

So, de-oiled lecithin is actually bad? If so, this leaves us with the question: Is lecithin powder good, if it is de-oiled?

 

[yerrag]

@General Orange Since lecithin is also an emulsifier, wouldn't it be a good idea to include some refined coconut oil (not vco, as it has more PUFA, and not fully hydrogenated coconut oil, as it has a high melting point) in the formula for making liposomal C. This way, it would minimize the harm of PUFA that comes with the lecithin?

The 160.5g of lecithin powder used in the formulation would come out to have this much fats:

Saturated fats - 32.1g
Mono fats - 21.4g
PUFA - 74.9g

If were to get a 2:1 ratio of SFA:PUFA in the formulation, I'd need 118 grams of coconut oil incorporated (2x74.9 - 32). This seems to be a bit much, I think. It may work still, but I don't want to risk it. It may turn the already probable chance of the formula being a true liposomal into a certain micelle, where the absorbability would not be as high.

So, I think it would be best to just have some coconut oil around, and take it together with the liposomal C

If the batch is consumed within 30 days (around 2 tbsp each day), it means I'd be consuming 2.5g of PUFA each day, I'll need to take 5g of coconut oil each day to get a 2:1 SFA:PUFA ratio, or 10g for a 4:1 ratio, or 15g for a 6:1 ratio, or 20g for an 8:1 ratio. Well, that doesn't seem enough yet, doesn't it?

Well, how about 3 tbsps per day of VCO, one after each meal then? This would come out to around 40g of, which would be a 16:1 ratio. I think this would be sufficient already.

Note that I didn't take into account the sat fats and mono fats in the lecithin. If I did, the daily fat intake would be:

Sat fats - 40 + 32/30 = 41
Mono - 21/30 = .7
PUFA - 2.5

Total/day = 44.2 g;

SFA = 93%
Mono = 1.5%
PUFA = 5.5%

The PUFA content of this formula is indeed significant. To counter the effect, I would be taking 3 tbsps. per of coconut oil (preferably fully hydrogenated) to lessen the effect of PUFA.

In addition, I will take 400 IU of vitamin E each day as well.

The concern of @ecstatichamster I won't take lightly. I'll be using liposomal C for the next 2 months, and it will be a load of 150g of PUFAs. I've seen how PUFA included in a parenteral infusion of food on my mom did to her. It made her hypoglycemic and worsened her condition in a hospital. While my setting is different, I don't want to take the risk of getting sicker while I try something to make me better. I'm using liposomal C because I wanted to find out if it is really more effective than just using l-ascorbic acid for improving my kidney condition, for lead chelation. It's better to prevent side effects than to have to deal with side effects. I don't want to just "cross the bridge when I get there."

 

[Such_Saturation]

I can minimize the damage by taking more SFAs as well as more Vitamin E.

So you are taking anti-oxidants to mitigate damage from toxins that you use to prepare other anti-oxidants.

 

[yerrag]

So you are taking anti-oxidants to mitigate damage from toxins that you use to prepare other anti-oxidants.

You nailed it. There is simplicity in understanding complexity.

 

[Such_Saturation]

You nailed it. There is simplicity in understanding complexity.

Why doesn't the fat-soluble anti-oxidant need liposomal treatment, for example?

 

[yerrag]

Why doesn't the fat-soluble anti-oxidant need liposomal treatment, for example?

I think it's because lipids get through the cell membrane easily along with fat-soluble vitamins?

 

[Such_Saturation]

I think it's because lipids get through the cell membrane easily along with fat-soluble vitamins?

I see.

 

[Mossy]

Is that the 2.5 liter ultrasonic cleaner that sells for $80? How were your results in making lipo C? Have you made other liposomes as well?

I purchased this exact unit for the purpose of making Lipo-C, and have made about 6 batches. I had assumed the ultrasonic cleaner was causing the proper emulsification, but I have a scenario that makes me question whether it actually took place:

I attempted to clean a tarnished fountain pen with that cleaner, and did not clean it whatsoever. I then attempted to clean a dirty penny, and it did not clean it at all. My logic may be completely bunk, but my thought is, if it’s not functioning effectively enough to do what it’s originally intended to do, is it actually emulsifying the ingredients of the Lipo-C?

 

[yerrag]

ttempted to clean a tarnished fountain pen with that cleaner, and did not clean it whatsoever. I then attempted to clean a dirty penny, and it did not clean it at all. My logic may be completely bunk, but my thought is, if it’s not functioning effectively enough to do what it’s originally intended to do, is it actually emulsifying the ingredients of the Lipo-C?

Didn't the cleaning process involve the use of some chemicals? Was the right chemical and dosage used?

Was the vitamin C fully dissolved in the water-ethanol mixture in the first step? And we're the froth reduced after the final step in the bath?

 

[Mossy]

Yes, I did use chemicals for the cleaning process, following specific instructions. Also, I did follow specific instructions for Lipo-C, the Brooks Bradley method, allowing the lecithin to soak before hand, totally dissolving the C before mixing, and using the ultrasonic cleaner until zero froth was left, gently stirring during.

I mention all this just to raise the question of whether we’re getting true emulcification, resulting in Lipo-C, with this particular cleaner, due to the lack of results with the cleaning attempts. Maybe I just got a dud cleaner. I will attempt the cleaning again, and see what I get.

 

[yerrag]

Yes, I did use chemicals for the cleaning process, following specific instructions. Also, I did follow specific instructions for Lipo-C, the Brooks Bradley method, allowing the lecithin to soak before hand, totally dissolving the C before mixing, and using the ultrasonic cleaner until zero froth was left, gently stirring during.

I mention all this just to raise the question of whether we’re getting true emulcification, resulting in Lipo-C, with this particular cleaner, due to the lack of results with the cleaning attempts. Maybe I just got a dud cleaner. I will attempt the cleaning again, and see what I get.

I think you are. The major emulsification part is where you use the blender to mix. In the first blend, if you reached a warm enough temperature with enough time for the blending, you get the lecithin to dissolve fully, which is crucial. The subsequent blending after refrigeration steps ensures emulsification is carried closer to completion. Since the last step, where ultrasonic bath is used, is optional, it really won't impact emulsification as much as it removes the froth.

 

[Mossy]

I think you are. The major emulsification part is where you use the blender to mix. In the first blend, if you reached a warm enough temperature with enough time for the blending, you get the lecithin to dissolve fully, which is crucial. The subsequent blending after refrigeration steps ensures emulsification is carried closer to completion. Since the last step, where ultrasonic bath is used, is optional, it really won't impact emulsification as much as it removes the froth.

Ah, ok— interesting. So, the moral of the story is save your $80 and don’t buy this questionable ultrasonic cleaner.

 

[sladerunner69]

Having read up on Vitamin C, I started using vitamin C in larger quantities over half a year ago. This was because I had learned from burtlancast that it is a good chelator of lead, with which I have a toxicity problem with in my kidneys.

I have been using vitamin C, in the form of l-ascorbic acid, for more than 7 months already. While there has been improvement in my kidneys, as seen in tests of serum albumin, LDH, and on my urine protein-creatinine ratio; much progress remains. My blood pressure has gone down from around 240/140 to being in the vicinity of 180/120, and it seems to have plateaued, and getting it to go further down is becoming more difficult. To note, I am also taking magnesium bicarbonate, as magnesium also chelates lead.

I had long thought about using Liposomal C, but I wasn't too enamored of having to buy it as it costs more. I wanted to see if just using l-ascorbic acid would do the job. I realize now that trying lipo C would be worth it, and was ready to buy the LivOn brand, simply because I found it difficult to find an ingredient needed to make my own liposomal C. But with more diligent search, I finally found a good brand of lecithin granules that meets the specs.

Before I go further, let me share some resources:

A free book by Irwin Stone on vitamin C -https://www.boweltolerance.org/uploads/6/6/2/0/6620648/the_healing_factor.pdf

Dr. Cathcart's method for determining daily requirements for Vitamin C -
https://www.boweltolerance.org/uploads/6/6/2/0/6620648/1981_cathcart_titrate.pdf

Dr Thomas Levy's video on Liposomal C -


And finally, how to make your own liposomal C -
Introduction

Please note that Dr. Levy in the video would say that the DIY liposomal C is not true liposomal C, but that he notes that it it still has some value. Whether that is true or not, I would not know, but I certain want to try to make my own liposomal C before buying a liposomal C.


Ingredients
After reading the information from the last link, I proceeded to get the ingredients: l-ascorbic acid, lecithin granules, ethyl alcohol, and water. It wasn't difficult to get them except for the lecithin granules. Water and l-ascorbic acid is easy to source out. As for ethyl alcohol, a local dealer sells a 95% version. I had to rejigger the formula as the ethyl alcohol specified was a 99% grade. I was glad I didn't have to buy vodka, which is a replacement ingredient in case no ethyl alcohol was to be found.

Getting the lecithin granules was the tricky part. A high PC (phosphatidylcholine) grade of lecithin granules is needed. I looked for it on the web and for many months I was stumped. There was one in UK but it was always out of stock, and I would check back on it but without success. I finally found one, and of all places, it was in Amazon. It wasn't advertised as high PC or anything, so I had to look deeper to find that it was a high PC grade. It is from Swanson - Sunflower Lecithin non-gmo, and made in Germany. Even if I were to look at the packaging, in a stubby white plastic container, it gave no indication that it was high PC.

Equipment
This was a piece of cake, except for one thing - An ultrasonic bath. Although it is optional, I wasn't too keen on proceeding with this project. I went into the vitamin C foundation's forum, and the thread on this subject was very long, and there were many comments that discouraged me. Not that I really read into them, I just glanced as you know how it is - who has the time or the life to read through copious pages of any thread. To make a long story short, I felt it was way too much trouble. But the DIY freak in me kept nagging me on this until my sane self relented.

Thankfully, I was still practical to say no to buying an expensive ultrasonic bath. I'll just trust the author's assurance that the bath is optional. So, with a weighing scale, a nice powerful Blendtec blender (really overkill for the job), an infrared stovetop (gas or induction will do), a small Pyrex Visionware casserole dish (in place of a beaker), and a thermometer, I summoned the will to finally make my own liposomal C - after a year of hemming and hawing.

Please look into the link and read through it. I followed the instructions verbatim so I don't have to recount what I did. And take a look at the picture of the final product.

Results
Very, very nice. At least on the physical aspects of the product. If you looked into the link, you will see that the final product is yellow, and that there is foam on top. Even with using the ultrasonic bath, there was still much foam remaining. Compared to that, my product had very little foam, and I see this as a success considering I was handicapped by not having an ultrasonic bath.

My product, though, was brown in color, instead of a bright yellow. I can attribute it to the color of the lecithin I used. It is actually light brown in color, instead of the typical yellow color you'd find in regular lecithin granules. It is also in powder form, and not in granular form. This is the reason I suspect which made the final product less foamy. I also suspect that the blade design of the Blendtec, and the speed I used in operating the blender, made for less entraining of air into the product.

Taste
Who cares about the taste? I don't. It tastes slightly bitter and salty, yet tolerable.

Now that I have done it, who wants to try this on his own?

I'll be using this batch for the next month or two. Hopefully, it will be more effective. This I know for sure - the vitamin C will be much, much more bioavailable and I won't be seeing a lot of it coming out from the urine. I could take it once or twice a day to get my daily dose, and won't need to drink it all throughout the day to minimize losses through urine.

Attached is a picture of what the product looks like.

View attachment 9564

Dr Thomas Levy- And I should heed the advice of this chubby balding man uhm, why exactly?

 

[yerrag]

Dr Thomas Levy- And I should heed the advice of this chubby balding man uhm, why exactly?

As opposed to listening to a pretty boy such as yourself?

 

[General Orange]

So, de-oiled lecithin is actually bad? If so, this leaves us with the question: Is lecithin powder good, if it is de-oiled?

De-oiled do not have the LysoPC.
You have to contact the manufacturer for de-oiled lecithin granules nonhydrolised without the LPC
for example: link www.americanlecithin.com Lecithins and Phospholipids A SimPLe Guide to uSe And SeLection
here is an better information:
Re‐evaluation of lecithins (E 322) as a food additive

Hydrolysed lecithins (lysolecithins) are the products of partial hydrolysis of food‐grade lecithins, where the fatty acid in the 2‐position of the phospholipids is enzymatically removed. They contain about 51% phospholipids, 18% total free fatty acids, 1% moisture and 24% triglycerides, sterols, commercial pancreatin (enzyme, inactivated) and carbohydrates in various proportions (SCF, 1982).

Refined lecithins with high levels of phospholipids (> 95%), prepared by acetone and alcohol fractionation (see Section 3.1.3), are soft, yellow‐brown powders (EFEMA, 2013). The density of commercial crude lecithin is 0.97 g/mL (liquid) and 0.5 g/mL (granule) (Wendel, 1995).

According to JECFA, both lecithin and partially hydrolysed lecithin ‘are only partially soluble in water, but readily hydrate to form emulsions; the oil‐free phosphatides are soluble in fatty acids, but are practically insoluble in fixed oils’ (JECFA, 2007a,b). However, the hydrolysed lecithin (lysolecithin) has an increased solubility in water and greater emulsifying activity for formation of oil‐in‐water emulsions (Tanno, 2012). The solubilities of soya bean lecithin and some of its individual ingredients are given in Table 4.
https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.2903/j.efsa.2017.4742

 

[General Orange]

And hgere is the research of the effectivity of liposomal Vit C vs unencasulated and intravenous C
Liposomal-encapsulated Ascorbic Acid: Influence on Vitamin C Bioavailability and Capacity to Protect Against Ischemia–Reperfusion Injury

 

[yerrag]

De-oiled do not have the LysoPC.
You have to contact the manufacturer for de-oiled lecithin granules nonhydrolised without the LPC
for example: link www.americanlecithin.com Lecithins and Phospholipids A SimPLe Guide to uSe And SeLection
here is an better information:
Re‐evaluation of lecithins (E 322) as a food additive

Thanks for the research. So, we can't make liposomal C with oil-free lecithin as there is no such thing. De-oiled lecithin still has oil left after de-oiling. Liposomal C making therefore would have involve the use of phosphatidylcholine along with PUFAs.

But the guide is very useful. Interesting how many grades of lecithin there are, and how the uses of the different grades vary. It also affirms that the use of de-oiled lecithin powder is the right choice. So I lucked out. Thanks again!

And hgere is the research of the effectivity of liposomal Vit C vs unencasulated and intravenous C
Liposomal-encapsulated Ascorbic Acid: Influence on Vitamin C Bioavailability and Capacity to Protect Against Ischemia–Reperfusion Injury

While the study shows liposomal C to have higher bio-absorbability than regular vitamin C, it is far below the levels achieved by IV.

However, I think the study is flawed in one way. While it is correct that the vitamin C used in both liposomal and unencapsulated C are sodium ascorbate, to give an apples to apples comparison, the use of ascorbic acid for IV gives IV administration an unfair advantage in the study. In actual practice, ascorbic acid is used for making liposomal C (and not sodium ascorbate) and the typical vitamin C component of IV is sodium ascorbate, and not ascorbic acid.

The study seems to be deliberately skewing the results in favor of IV infusion of vitamin C.

 

[General Orange]

Thanks for the research. So, we can't make liposomal C with de-oiled lecithin. Liposomal C making would involve the use of phosphatidylcholine along with PUFAs.


While the study shows liposomal C to have higher bio-absorbability than regular vitamin C, it is far below the levels achieved by IV.

However, I think the study is flawed in one way. While it is correct that the vitamin C used in both liposomal and unencapsulated C are sodium ascorbate, to give an apples to apples comparison, the use of ascorbic acid for IV gives IV administration an unfair advantage in the study. In actual practice, ascorbic acid is used for making liposomal C (and not sodium ascorbate) and the typical vitamin C component of IV is sodium ascorbate, and not ascorbic acid.

The study seems to be deliberately skewing the results in favor of IV infusion of vitamin C.

- Yes, you can make it with deoiled PC, no need for extra PUFA. The deoiled still got only about 3% fatty acids though. As I see it the available lecithin is important in the combining process, not the fatty acids, for the blending and sonic vibration procedure makes the liposomes arrange around the ascorbic acid.
Deoiled sunflower lecithine is also used here

- Salts of vitamin C, such as sodium and calcium ascorbate (Ester-C), have also been tested. Animal studies indicated that Ester-C (which contains calcium ascorbate, as well as DHA and calcium threonate) was absorbed more readily and excreted less rapidly than ascorbic acid [95] and had superior anti-scorbutic activity in ODS rats [96]. Johnston and Luo [83], however, found no significant differences between Ester-C and ascorbic acid bioavailability in humans. Nevertheless, Ester-C has been shown to be better tolerated in individuals sensitive to acidic foods [97].

 

[yerrag]

Johnston and Luo [83], however, found no significant differences between Ester-C and ascorbic acid bioavailability in humans.

That may be, but ascorbic acid has two hydrogen ions available while ascorbate has only one. So the potency of ascorbic acid is much better.

Ester-C has been shown to be better tolerated in individuals sensitive to acidic foods [97].

This is true, but if you can tolerate ascorbic acid, it's better to use ascorbic acid. A vitamin C proponent (forgot the name) suggests fixing your gut if it can't tolerate ascorbic acid.

 

[Ideonaut]

Having read up on Vitamin C, I started using vitamin C in larger quantities over half a year ago. This was because I had learned from burtlancast that it is a good chelator of lead, with which I have a toxicity problem with in my kidneys.

I have been using vitamin C, in the form of l-ascorbic acid, for more than 7 months already. While there has been improvement in my kidneys, as seen in tests of serum albumin, LDH, and on my urine protein-creatinine ratio; much progress remains. My blood pressure has gone down from around 240/140 to being in the vicinity of 180/120, and it seems to have plateaued, and getting it to go further down is becoming more difficult. To note, I am also taking magnesium bicarbonate, as magnesium also chelates lead.

I had long thought about using Liposomal C, but I wasn't too enamored of having to buy it as it costs more. I wanted to see if just using l-ascorbic acid would do the job. I realize now that trying lipo C would be worth it, and was ready to buy the LivOn brand, simply because I found it difficult to find an ingredient needed to make my own liposomal C. But with more diligent search, I finally found a good brand of lecithin granules that meets the specs.

Before I go further, let me share some resources:

A free book by Irwin Stone on vitamin C -https://www.boweltolerance.org/uploads/6/6/2/0/6620648/the_healing_factor.pdf

Dr. Cathcart's method for determining daily requirements for Vitamin C -
https://www.boweltolerance.org/uploads/6/6/2/0/6620648/1981_cathcart_titrate.pdf

Dr Thomas Levy's video on Liposomal C -


And finally, how to make your own liposomal C -
Introduction

Please note that Dr. Levy in the video would say that the DIY liposomal C is not true liposomal C, but that he notes that it it still has some value. Whether that is true or not, I would not know, but I certain want to try to make my own liposomal C before buying a liposomal C.


Ingredients
After reading the information from the last link, I proceeded to get the ingredients: l-ascorbic acid, lecithin granules, ethyl alcohol, and water. It wasn't difficult to get them except for the lecithin granules. Water and l-ascorbic acid is easy to source out. As for ethyl alcohol, a local dealer sells a 95% version. I had to rejigger the formula as the ethyl alcohol specified was a 99% grade. I was glad I didn't have to buy vodka, which is a replacement ingredient in case no ethyl alcohol was to be found.

Getting the lecithin granules was the tricky part. A high PC (phosphatidylcholine) grade of lecithin granules is needed. I looked for it on the web and for many months I was stumped. There was one in UK but it was always out of stock, and I would check back on it but without success. I finally found one, and of all places, it was in Amazon. It wasn't advertised as high PC or anything, so I had to look deeper to find that it was a high PC grade. It is from Swanson - Sunflower Lecithin non-gmo, and made in Germany. Even if I were to look at the packaging, in a stubby white plastic container, it gave no indication that it was high PC.

Equipment
This was a piece of cake, except for one thing - An ultrasonic bath. Although it is optional, I wasn't too keen on proceeding with this project. I went into the vitamin C foundation's forum, and the thread on this subject was very long, and there were many comments that discouraged me. Not that I really read into them, I just glanced as you know how it is - who has the time or the life to read through copious pages of any thread. To make a long story short, I felt it was way too much trouble. But the DIY freak in me kept nagging me on this until my sane self relented.

Thankfully, I was still practical to say no to buying an expensive ultrasonic bath. I'll just trust the author's assurance that the bath is optional. So, with a weighing scale, a nice powerful Blendtec blender (really overkill for the job), an infrared stovetop (gas or induction will do), a small Pyrex Visionware casserole dish (in place of a beaker), and a thermometer, I summoned the will to finally make my own liposomal C - after a year of hemming and hawing.

Please look into the link and read through it. I followed the instructions verbatim so I don't have to recount what I did. And take a look at the picture of the final product.

Results
Very, very nice. At least on the physical aspects of the product. If you looked into the link, you will see that the final product is yellow, and that there is foam on top. Even with using the ultrasonic bath, there was still much foam remaining. Compared to that, my product had very little foam, and I see this as a success considering I was handicapped by not having an ultrasonic bath.

My product, though, was brown in color, instead of a bright yellow. I can attribute it to the color of the lecithin I used. It is actually light brown in color, instead of the typical yellow color you'd find in regular lecithin granules. It is also in powder form, and not in granular form. This is the reason I suspect which made the final product less foamy. I also suspect that the blade design of the Blendtec, and the speed I used in operating the blender, made for less entraining of air into the product.

Taste
Who cares about the taste? I don't. It tastes slightly bitter and salty, yet tolerable.

Now that I have done it, who wants to try this on his own?

I'll be using this batch for the next month or two. Hopefully, it will be more effective. This I know for sure - the vitamin C will be much, much more bioavailable and I won't be seeing a lot of it coming out from the urine. I could take it once or twice a day to get my daily dose, and won't need to drink it all throughout the day to minimize losses through urine.

Attached is a picture of what the product looks like.

View attachment 9564

An interesting thing to me in the Thomas Levy video above is his recommendation to use IP6 (inositol hexaphosphate) to chelate iron. Getting rid of iron overload is highly recommended by Peat--see his article. Any comments on how to use IP6 to lower iron--dosage, etc.? He says to take zinc (and magnesium?) supplements with it. I see the IP6 I just ordered from Bulk Supplements has calcium and magnesium included. I gather that it is phytate and phytate is usually counter-recommended, but Levy says it is ok.