Thiamine Reduces Both Lactate And Ammonia

[haidut]

The study was with humans and also included exercise, which makes thiamine even more interesting to athletes. The type of thiamine used was TTFD, which is the scientific name for allithiamine, and the dose was 10mg/kg. That would mean a total daily dose in the range of 600mg-900mg for most people. Since allithiamine tends to be expensive, I think the same effects can be achieved with plain thiamine Hcl but with higher doses. I posted a human study showing very high bioavailability and relatively long half-life with a dose of 1,500mg of thiamine in humans. If anybody has both allithiamine and regular thiamine may be they could do a comparison test for exercise and report on the effects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4241913/

"...To sum up the previous, thiamine intake during exercise positively benefits carbohydrate metabolism in a way that will decrease lactate concentration, ammonia concentration, and anti- fatigue by reducing the RPE. Therefore, we can consider thiamine intake to be utilized as similar benefits as endurance training."

The RPE stands for Rated Perceived Exertion and this means thiamine had a psychological effect on top of improving physiological parameters. The study also talks about how thiamine improves carbohydrate metabolism by increased PDH. Peat has written on the benefits of increasing PDH and agents such as fructose that to that very well. So, maybe a drink of fructose water with thiamine would have an even bigger effect, especially given the known benefits of sugar on endurance exercise??


Another interesting extract from the study:
"...Hasegawa et al. [12] propose that thiamine and riboflavin intake increase for athletes during the season compared to the off-season. Such result suggests that the athletes under continuous training may experience thiamine insufficiency. Also, if a person takes vitamin B (B1, B2, B6), vitamin C and other vitamins less than one third of the recommended daily requirements, it is observed that the maximum oxygen uptake and the lactate threshold significantly decrease within 4 weeks, causing problems in the exercise performance through vitamine deficency [13]. Van der Beek et al. [14] report that the maximum oxygen uptake decreases by about 11.6% and the lactate accumulation increases by 7% as a result of deficiencies in thiamine, riboflavin and vitamin B6 for 24 healthy male adults for more than 11 weeks. Also, Fogelholm et al. [15] announce that the erythrocyte activation coefficient significantly increases as a result of supplementing multivitamin for 42 active university students with low levels of thiamine, riboflavin and vitamin B6 for 5 weeks."

 

[Gl;itch.e]

I may guinea pig this for you. I use a small amount of thiamine HCL (100mg) in the mornings and after workouts. The times I have tried it before a workout I felt like it helped to get me a few extra reps on some exercises. Would I have to watch how much sugar I was taking in with a larger dose?

I've been very interested in the ammonia angle since I read about it from you recently. What sort of things would you expect to see with reduced ammonia load on the body?

 

[haidut]

I may guinea pig this for you. I use a small amount of thiamine HCL (100mg) in the mornings and after workouts. The times I have tried it before a workout I felt like it helped to get me a few extra reps on some exercises. Would I have to watch how much sugar I was taking in with a larger dose?

I've been very interested in the ammonia angle since I read about it from you recently. What sort of things would you expect to see with reduced ammonia load on the body?

Thanks for volunteering. I think a carb drink with 60g-80g of sugar before exercise would be enough. Taking the drink and the thiamine 60min before exercise should be sufficient.
Reduced ammonia should have many benefits including very big improvement of mental clarity during the day, lack of fatigue during exercise that would normally make you tired, and improved sleep at night with less waking up and no bad dreams. The ammonia angle is often overlooked when it comes to the symptoms of "aging" but higher ammonia levels are one of the main suppressors of efficient metabolism. Ray wrote about the dangers of the "three amines" serotonin, histamine and ammonia and how reducing them would benefit the whole body.

 

[Sheila]

Would I be correct then in thinking that thiamine supplementation - at higher than RDA - could perhaps help those with kidney insufficiency as they accumulate ammonia? Thoughts anyone? Thanks, Sheila.

 

[haidut]

Would I be correct then in thinking that thiamine supplementation - at higher than RDA - could perhaps help those with kidney insufficiency as they accumulate ammonia? Thoughts anyone? Thanks, Sheila.

You are spot on Sheila! I posted a recent study on that so here it is again.

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents ... _b1_could/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7796073.stm

The study above did not look into ammonia but did find thiamine reversed early kidney disease at a daily dose of 300mg daily. I am pretty sure lower ammonia helped the kidneys recover better, assuming thiamine lowered ammonia for those patients like it did for the exercising women in the original study of this post.

 

[Sheila]

Thank you Haidut, I appreciate your reply, I can not believe I missed another study on this, but thank you for reposting. It is known that dialysis reduces B vitamins so I have wondered whether they become ultra-deficient in some way, even if they tend not to show obvious signs. I will continue my research, thanks again, Sheila.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

So what sort of dose would you think would be appropriate to start at considering Ill be using the HCL version? Im weighing around 92-93kg at the mo so that'd put the 10mg level for allithiamine at about 900-1000mg.

 

[haidut]

So what sort of dose would you think would be appropriate to start at considering Ill be using the HCL version? Im weighing around 92-93kg at the mo so that'd put the 10mg level for allithiamine at about 900-1000mg.

I don't know what dose would be appropriate for you as the absorption of thiamine Hcl is very person specific. I think Ray recommends 300mg every 4 hours and some people use less/more depending on tolerance.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

So what sort of dose would you think would be appropriate to start at considering Ill be using the HCL version? Im weighing around 92-93kg at the mo so that'd put the 10mg level for allithiamine at about 900-1000mg.

I don't know what dose would be appropriate for you as the absorption of thiamine Hcl is very person specific. I think Ray recommends 300mg every 4 hours and some people use less/more depending on tolerance.

Cool. Well I might experiment with the dose. I think Ill try a 500mg amount before training tomorrow and see how I go. Will keep you posted.

 

[khan]

So what sort of dose would you think would be appropriate to start at considering Ill be using the HCL version? Im weighing around 92-93kg at the mo so that'd put the 10mg level for allithiamine at about 900-1000mg.

I don't know what dose would be appropriate for you as the absorption of thiamine Hcl is very person specific. I think Ray recommends 300mg every 4 hours and some people use less/more depending on tolerance.

I was checking thiamine on iherb, mostly available in the strength of 100mg. Haidut which product you use, for higher doses like 900 mg of thiamine

 

[Such_Saturation]

Take thiamine away from coffee.

 

[kiran]

A thiamine deficiency also causes an inability of the liver to deactivate estrogen. Might be worth megadosing thiamine if you have estrogen issues.

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=Tht ... en&f=false

 

[haidut]

A thiamine deficiency also causes an inability of the liver to deactivate estrogen. Might be worth megadosing thiamine if you have estrogen issues.

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=Tht ... en&f=false

These studies talk more about the issue @kiran mentioned and claim that both thiamine and riboflavin are crucial for the ability of the liver to deactivate estrogen. The second study is the original Segaloff study showing thiamine and riboflavin are crucial for estrogen detoxification. No word on dosage though, but it's probably physiological since the animals were deficient to start with.
http://archive.org/stream/bulletinofuni ... 3_djvu.txt
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/pdf/10.1 ... o-34-5-346

 

[kiran]

No word on dosage though, but it's probably physiological since the animals were deficient to start with.

Antibiotics (amoxycillin and minocycline), caffeine and a high carb diet can also deplete thiamine. "Hyperthyroidism" can increase the thiamine requirement.

 

[messtafarian]

I was supplementing thiamine in heavy doses for muscle fasciculations, spasms and weakness last month but I ran out. No local store seems to have thiamine on its own, only b complexes containing reasonably high levels of additional b6.

I'm glad I read RP Forum because if I had not known better I would have started swallowing those by the handful.

Anyway shopping on Amazon today for more b-1: does anyone know the benefit of taking "coenzymated" b-1? It says on the bottle that it "goes directly into the bloodstream" and does not have to be metabolized by the liver. Beneficial? Not important?

http://www.amazon.com/Source-Naturals-C ... s=thiamine

 

[haidut]

So what sort of dose would you think would be appropriate to start at considering Ill be using the HCL version? Im weighing around 92-93kg at the mo so that'd put the 10mg level for allithiamine at about 900-1000mg.

I don't know what dose would be appropriate for you as the absorption of thiamine Hcl is very person specific. I think Ray recommends 300mg every 4 hours and some people use less/more depending on tolerance.

I was checking thiamine on iherb, mostly available in the strength of 100mg. Haidut which product you use, for higher doses like 900 mg of thiamine

If you search Google you will find many any products of thiamine with dosage ranging from 200mg up to 500mg per pill.

 

[haidut]

I was supplementing thiamine in heavy doses for muscle fasciculations, spasms and weakness last month but I ran out. No local store seems to have thiamine on its own, only b complexes containing reasonably high levels of additional b6.

I'm glad I read RP Forum because if I had not known better I would have started swallowing those by the handful.

Anyway shopping on Amazon today for more b-1: does anyone know the benefit of taking "coenzymated" b-1? It says on the bottle that it "goes directly into the bloodstream" and does not have to be metabolized by the liver. Beneficial? Not important?

http://www.amazon.com/Source-Naturals-C ... s=thiamine

I'd stick to supplements that have been used in studies rather than some proprietary hotshot formula. This means, thiamine Hcl and allithiamine are the way to go. Maybe sulbuthiamine as well if you can find it.

 

[haidut]

Just a quick note for those people that do not have allithiamine (i.e. the study above was done with allithiamine). Allithiamine is a fat-soluble version of thiamine and is much more expensive and hard to find. The question is if we can achieve similar results with regular thiamine Hcl.
I posted a study some time ago on various dosage regimens of thiamine Hcl. It looks like the highest dose 1,500mg achieved similar concentrations to the dosage used by the study above. I have attached two screenshots from each study so you can see the similar plasma concentrations. So, it looks like regular thiamine Hcl is about 50% less effective (absorbable) in achieving the same blood concentrations achieved with allithiamine. The dosage used in the study above was close to 1,000mg while the dosage in the other study was 1,500mg.
NOTE! - My comments are simply about achieving similar blood concentrations of the two different types of B1. I have no idea if the two vitamins have same (or even similar) effects in tissues, and in fact there are several studies saying the two versions of B1 have different effectiveness in terms of conversion into various cofactors for carbohydrate metabolism. So, no guarantee that thiamine Hcl will be as effective as allithiamine but I suspect it will be fairly close.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I'm doing sulbutiamine but it gives nothing like the pure bliss that thiamine hydrochloride gives at high doses.

 

[haidut]

I'm doing sulbutiamine but it gives nothing like the pure bliss that thiamine hydrochloride gives at high doses.

I had the similar experience - sulbuthiamine does not live up to the hype and price. A single 200mg capsule of sulbuthiamine gives me crushing headache, and this happened using products from different vendors. I never get any headache form plain thiamine Hcl, although in doses of 1,000mg and above it can upset your stomach. However, that hasn't happened to me either.
Allithiamine is also very good. If you want to build tissue storage of thiamine then you probably need allithiamine since it is fat soluble and has much longer half-life. I think I saw a study with mice where after feeding them allithiamine for 1 week the mice did not get thiamine deficiency for more than 6 months during which they were made to binge drink massive amounts of alcohol that should have caused Wernicke encephalopathy. Alcohol depletes thiamine like a thirsty camel, so allithiamine managed to withstand that. Maybe regular thiamine would have done the same but it was not tested to compare with allithiamine. Vitamin Shoppe has an allithiamine product on sale. It is not their product but they sell it and since it does not sell very well they often cut the price by like 30%-50% at which point it is a very good buy.
Personally, after finding that study showing that thiamine Hcl is quite bioavailable I do not use allithiamine much either, but I still keep some leftover just in case I need to compare for things like endurance exercise or mental performance.