Regarding Milk, Calcium And Estrogen

charlie

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j. said:
Haagendazendiane said:
Could it be just an imbalance? More magnesium needed if calcium increased?

Consuming more salt increases one's ability to retain magnesium.
Did you mention before that progesterone dumps salt?
 
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j.

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One possible experiment: Try to sweeten your milk with tons of honey instead of table sugar. I think it's anti-estrogen, and also that it fills glycogen stores more easily. Don't forget the coffee which is pro-progesterone, and avoid chocolate which is slightly estrogenic.
 
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j.

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Charlie said:
Did you mention before that progesterone dumps salt?

Right, so you have to eat more salt when you take progesterone. I tried to do that with iodized salt but then I got sick of it I think due to excess iodine. But I was able to consume more with non-iodized salt.
 
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lindsay

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now i'm confused. I had no idea about progesterone dumping salt..... do you have a source for that?
I don't crave salt anymore - nor do I crave magnesium. Maybe that doesn't mean anything, but I feel I have a good balance. plus, if I eat tsps. of salt, I get very dry mouth and thirsty, which leads me in circles.
however, i can try a little more salt. did I forget to mention I'm taking cynoplus? i feel like thyroid should help with balancing things somewhat, but maybe it takes more than two months.

jb4566 posted this over on peatarian in answer to this question:

"Excess calcium impairs the absorption of zinc and a zinc deficiency depletes vitamin E and thus vitamin A" from Andrew Kim's blog: http://www.andrewkimblog.com/2013/06/lipid-peroxidation-acne-and-complexity.html

the vitamin e thing makes sense, as I used to supplement vitamin e to help with the fibrocystic breasts. now I am taking progest-e and lots of it, so I feel my vitamin e should be fine, but vitamin a I'm not sure. I don't have a gallbladder, so this whole way of eating makes things more difficult for me (you can't absorb as many fat soluble vitamins without a gallbladder). however, I have very clear skin, so this all confuses me and I feel like a walking pharmacy of supplements right now.
 
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j.

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Aldosterone retains salt. Progesterone, an aldosterone antagonist, lets salt leave the body. This is well known.

Results suggest that the acute natriuretic action of progesterone is in part independent of aldosterone inhibition and that progesterone may inhibit sodium reabsorption at proximal as well as distal sites in the nephron.

Effect of progesterone on renal sodium handling in man: relation to aldosterone excretion and plasma renin activity.

One of the first things I noticed when taking progesterone was that two days later I could consume a lot more salt.

If you don't crave salt, I feel that you shouldn't consume more. I consume it to taste. Maybe you consume more than I do already.
 
J

j.

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lindsay, do you consume honey? If you can tolerate it, I think it's good to consume it maybe with your milk and coffee because 1. is anti-estrogen 2. fills glycogen stores quickly 3. Has more minerals per unit of sugar than table sugar.
 

charlie

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lindsay said:
now i'm confused.
I hear you Lindsay. I am a bit overwhelmed with this right now. Just keep digging at it, you will get there.

When I need a bit of inspiration I refer back to this quote below:
Jacob Riis said:
When nothing seems to help, I go and look at a stonecutter hammering away at his rock perhaps a hundred times without as much as a crack showing in it. Yet at the hundred and first blow it will split in two, and I know it was not that blow that did it, but all that had gone before.

I do think it is something with the calcium, and maybe its possibly the zinc connection. Just gotta keep working through it and figure it out. :)
 

Mittir

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http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/5/1378S.full

Dietary Factors Influencing Zinc Absorption1
Bo Lönnerdal

Calcium.

It appears unlikely that calcium per se has a negative effect on zinc absorption. We added calcium to cow’s milk formula to a level of ∼1300 mg/L and found no significant difference in zinc absorption from the formula with the regular level of calcium (500 mg/L) through the use of radioisotopes in human adults and paired observations (Lönnerdal et al. 1984). Similarly, Spencer et al. (1984) and Dawson-Hughes et al. (1986) added large amounts of calcium to a meal and found no effect on zinc absorption in human adults. It also appears that the long-term use of calcium supplements has no effect on zinc status; Gambian women who were given 1000 mg calcium/d had plasma zinc concentrations similar to those of unsupplemented women (Yan et al. 1996).

The calcium content of the diet may, however, affect zinc absorption from phytate-containing meals. It has been postulated that the formula [Ca] × ([phytate]/[Zn]) ratio can be used as a predictor of zinc bioavailability (Fordyce et al. 1987). The reason for this is that calcium has the propensity to form complexes with phytate and zinc that are insoluble and consequently have an inhibitory effect on zinc absorption. Although there certainly are studies that support this concept, the interaction is complex, and it is possible that this ratio may be of limited predictive value. For example, we added calcium to a soy-based infant formula (1300 versus 550 mg/L) and found that zinc absorption increased significantly compared with regular soy formula, even though an increased [Ca] × [phytate]/[Zn] ratio would predict lower zinc absorption. We hypothesized that a larger proportion of calcium bound to phytate in the gastrointestinal tract, thereby making more zinc available for absorption (Lönnerdal et al. 1984). Several authors have suggested that the phytate-to-zinc molar ratio can be used to estimate zinc bioavailability from the diet (Davies and Olpin 1979, Lo et al. 1981, Morris and Ellis 1980), and it is possible that this ratio in general may have more predictability than the ratio that includes calcium as a variable.
 
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lindsay

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j. said:
lindsay, do you consume honey? If you can tolerate it, I think it's good to consume it maybe with your milk and coffee because 1. is anti-estrogen 2. fills glycogen stores quickly 3. Has more minerals per unit of sugar than table sugar.

Occasionally yes. I prefer granulated fructose in my coffee, but could try honey for a bit. I didn't realize it was anti-estrogen. I just bought some of that manuka honey - maybe I will try to intentionally eat a tbsp. per day raw.
 

SaltGirl

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I can attest to progesterone requiring more salt(and calcium). Due to doctor's orders I was taking spironolactone and I added progesterone on top of that. What I got was every symptom of low salt(swelling, bad and slow digestion, etc). Of course, if you eat more salt you will require more fluids as you dump fluids when you dump salt. I have done the mistake of eating too little salt and too much salt without necessary fluids and both feel horrible(extremely painful constipation being one symptom).
 

pranarupa

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In Peptides, coherent adaptation and some terminal diseases Ray argues that progesterone along with ANP (Atrial Natriuretic peptide) helps to retain sodium saying it might be better to think of ANP as ANTInatriuretic peptide.
 

cmartin

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I want all ray peat interviews transcribed.
Is there any chance some of us could transcribe one and exchange with either.
For those who are interested, it might even be worth the expence of having one transcribed professionally.
Then one would be out the expence of aome paper and ink in exchange fer each new interview he received from fellow ray peat fan transcriber.
Anyone interested?
mickie
 
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lindsay

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I emailed RP last week about magnesium. Perhaps it's because he knows I am on a thyroid supplement and taking progesterone, but he said,

"Thyroid, T3, is the main thing regulating magnesium retention, keeping it in cells, preventing water retention. Salt is another thing that directly inhibits magnesium loss."

He then recommended I take a little bit of T3 when I have symptoms of magnesium "deficiency". I still ordered an Mg supplement though. It was cheap and I want to give it a try.
 

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Charlie said:
Orange season ended in California, and Florida is just starting up so the oranges are not ripe yet. So the last 10 days or so I have not been getting any orange juice, and instead drinking more milk with sugar to make up for it.

What's the problem with unripe orange? Less ripe means more oranges to get the same quantity of juice, and the juice taste less good. But for a given quantity of juice, what are the consequences - is it just a bit less of some nutrients and if so which especially?
 

charlie

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They taste is not what it should be. And if they are navel oranges they will get a sour taste to them soon after squeezing if not really ripe. I do not know the specifics of nutrient availability. But I know the sugar availability can differ greatly.
 

jyb

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Charlie said:
They taste is not what it should be. And if they are navel oranges they will get a sour taste to them soon after squeezing if not really ripe. I do not know the specifics of nutrient availability. But I know the sugar availability can differ greatly.

I'm thinking it's probably still much much better than nothing or just more white sugar, as it's the only source of potassium if you avoid starch. Unripe may mean it has less of it and of other nutrients, but there's no fiber or pufa issue so I don't see what could go too wrong.
 

charlie

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To me when it's not ripe...... it does not taste right, feel right, and seems toxic.
 
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lindsay

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I'm lazy - I buy Wholefoods Organic Pulp Free OJ. It's my favorite :)
 

jyb

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Charlie said:
To me when it's not ripe...... it does not taste right, feel right, and seems toxic.

Oranges I have access to are not navels, they're smaller. I wouldn't say the unripe oranges are that bad or toxic. It has the same colour as ripe juice, just less taste, and maybe a little bit sour but not crazy sour.
 

charlie

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There is reason to why Ray Peat switches to Mexican Coke when he cannot get ripe fruit. Probably along the same lines of why I do not want to eat unripe fruit because it does not feel right. Oranges are supposed to be sweet, not sour.

As always, to each their own and I am just letting you know what works for me. :)
 

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