Dosages Of Thiamine, Riboflavin, Niacinamide, Pyridoxine, And Biotin

[Bluebell]

I was wondering what might be good dosages of thiamine, riboflavin, niacinamide, pyridoxine, and biotin.

I currently take the following and was wondering if the doses are OK: (I recently stopped for a few days then restarted as I find I feel better when I take them)

thiamine 100mg
riboflavin - not currently taking
niacinamide - not taking but plan to start 250mg
pyridoxine - 33.8 mg as P5P
biotin - 2 x 5mg (taking for hair)

I also take B12 1,000 mcg.

Thanks for any comments!

 

[tara]

Others probably know more, but my thoughts are:
B vitamins have a short half-life before excess is excreted, so it makes a difference to split the dose over 2,3, or 4 times a day. I take mine twice a day for logistical reasons, but more might be better.

thiamine: 100mg should be enough to make a difference. That's about what I'm taking. Some people use 300mg or more.
riboflavin: Peat has said this is one that is sometimes contaminated/causes allergies for some people. On the other hand, there are studies showing it helps some people. I've been taking highish doses - 100-400mg - because some studies show it effective against migraine. Unless you notice that it helps, you can probably leave this out.
niacinamide: I think Peat has suggested 50-100mg niacinamide 2 or more times a day. So 250 might be good if it's split across 3 - 4 doses.
I think Peat has said 10mg B6 is a large dose. For long term use it might make sense not to exceed that. Not sure if that corresponds to more or less P5P.

I also notice I feel better when I take them.

 

[Bluebell]

That is very helpful indeed, thank you.

Thiamine I felt really great when I first started it - I think I had a deficiency.
Riboflavin I do find my body doesn't seem to like it much. I noticed slightly clearer eyes at first, but on the other hand it tends to make me feel a bit toxic, so that's why I tended to leave it out. That's good news it's not required.

I'll be interested to hear if anyone thinks my 10mg biotin is too massive or if it's OK.

I also wonder if it's OK to completely miss out the others like B5 and folic acid ... whether taking a limited selection of Bs might cause an imbalance or whether that's just a myth.

 

[kineticz]

What benefit does thiamine have in Peat terms?

 

[paymanz]

what about Pantothenic acid?
i also heard that we need to have balance in B vitamins.over doing one makes the other low.so if we cant take b6 more than 10 , isnt it better to keep other B vitamins around normal dose?like RDA dose.

 

[paymanz]

i take biotin 5mg and give it some days off.and for folate i eat chicken liver.with that b12 you need folate too.

 

[Peata]

That is very helpful indeed, thank you.

Thiamine I felt really great when I first started it - I think I had a deficiency.
Riboflavin I do find my body doesn't seem to like it much. I noticed slightly clearer eyes at first, but on the other hand it tends to make me feel a bit toxic, so that's why I tended to leave it out. That's good news it's not required.

I'll be interested to hear if anyone thinks my 10mg biotin is too massive or if it's OK.

I also wonder if it's OK to completely miss out the others like B5 and folic acid ... whether taking a limited selection of Bs might cause an imbalance or whether that's just a myth.

I am getting ready to start 10,000mcg. biotin. Have you noticed improvement in hair, skin, nails?

 

[Bluebell]

Thanks all for your comments. I'm just starting up liver again, but I'm guessing the amount of folic acid wouldn't be enough to balance the b12. If I decide to lower the doses for long term use, then I'll have to fiddle around with taking parts of capsules, ugh. I'm also interested in adding back some pantothenic acid, as I used to take it a while ago.

Peata, I've had mixed results. Hair - maybe a bit more body, but have not seen any new growth. My hair is growing faster which I did not especially want. Nails - started flaking because I've been using nail polish & acetone remover a lot recently, so not a fair trial. Lashes - think they are a little thicker and longer. Skin - seemed brighter/better/smoother at first, now I don't notice much difference. But it's only been about 6 weeks so I'll keep on trying. No bad effects.

 

[Amazoniac]

I'm trying to figure out the proper ratio of B vitamins to take. After a post by haidut suggesting that it's the balance of nutrients that matter, I decided that that's the prudent thing to do before supplementing.
So my question is: are the ratios based on the RDIs reliable?

1:12:4:1 (b2:b3:b5:b6) which are those that are harder to get

What about biotin and cobalamin?
Thiamine? Folate? Choline?
How they all interact?

[Edit mod: Topics merged as requested below.]

 

[Parsifal]

That's an interesting question, we could add this question with other vitamins and minerals as well...

Do you have any idea what your fat soluble levels are? I think one major problem people have on a high calcium/liquid diet is too much calcium and water gets in their cell unopposed by magnesium and it gets out of control. The over excited cell kicks out potassium, magnesium, sodium. Energy production goes way down. They whole body retains water. I have run into this problem several times before I realized what was going on.

Isn't there a good quantity of magnesium in milk as well to balance calcium/magnesium? (even if lactose increases calcium absorption)?

I've read about minerals antagonism and the fact that non-organic (if they aren't chelated to an amino acid) are important for mineral balance but it seems that RP never talked about it (just that Zinc/copper/iron are in competition for absorption IIRC)?
Could be interesting to have more informations on this topic as a defficiency in magnesium seems to lead to hypothyroid symptoms...

 

[Amazoniac]

Even though their balance should be important, there must be a minimum for each one of those. I guess this is what a lot of people wonder: a starting point to experiment, what supports and what antagonizes.
Unfortunately the info available here is all over the place and comes mostly from people that tried a random dosage, reporting their effect after. It's unreliable because many of them were in need of therapeutic dosages..

 

[Amazoniac]

B Vitamins in Breast Milk: Relative Importance of Maternal Status and Intake, and Effects on Infant Status and Function
Does B vitamins produced in the gut have really a significant impact? If so, does that means that the requirements during infancy from milk are higher - adjusting accordingly (of course) - ?

 

[Amazoniac]

Mods, could you please move this discussion to: viewtopic.php?t=6112

 

[Amazoniac]

I'm probably missing something here, all of those values posted here are abnormally high compared to what I've been reading, considering breast milk, the amount that you can get from food, the amount produced by bacteria, and so on. I just don't get it. No sarcasm intended..

 

[NathanK]

post 72305
I'll be interested to hear if anyone thinks my 10mg biotin is too massive or if it's OK.

I also wonder if it's OK to completely miss out the others like B5 and folic acid ... whether taking a limited selection of Bs might cause an imbalance or whether that's just a myth.

10mg is safe. I think biotin competes with B5 so should be taken together (though I just take a b complex on top of my isolated Bs to be sure). I think the issue with B5 is that its not the most stable B vitamin to take exogenously.

 

[DaveFoster]

I'm bumping this, as I'm interested in riboflavin.

Haidut puts 20 mg in his supplements, and the fact that Bluebell experiences clearer eyes, but also feels "toxic" tells me that the dosing is too high.

The standard for riboflavin is 100 mg, but that seems far too much. 50 mg even seems too high. 10-20 mg seems ideal for daily supplementation, but in riboflavin-deficient rats, they required an increased amount for the short-term (or possible long-term due to structural changes).

Maybe a week of high dose (100-400 mg), and then a maintenance dose of 20 mg would be ideal. Any input on the subject is appreciated.

 

[Amazoniac]

post 111339 I'm bumping this, as I'm interested in riboflavin.

Haidut puts 20 mg in his supplements, and the fact that Bluebell experiences clearer eyes, but also feels "toxic" tells me that the dosing is too high.

The standard for riboflavin is 100 mg, but that seems far too much. 50 mg even seems too high. 10-20 mg seems ideal for daily supplementation, but in riboflavin-deficient rats, they required an increased amount for the short-term (or possible long-term due to structural changes).

Maybe a week of high dose (100-400 mg), and then a maintenance dose of 20 mg would be ideal. Any input on the subject is appreciated.

If you suspect severe deficiency and need higher doses, just spread throughout the day, instead of a insane amount in a single time. The excess will be excreted between them, especially B vits..

 

[tara]

post 111339 The standard for riboflavin is 100 mg, but that seems far too much. 50 mg even seems too high. 10-20 mg seems ideal for daily supplementation, but in riboflavin-deficient rats, they required an increased amount for the short-term (or possible long-term due to structural changes).

I tried high dose riboflavin specificaly because there were a couple of studies showing 200mg or 400 mg significantly reduced severity and duration of migraines for a good chunk of the migraineurs who tried it. It seemed a pretty benign thing to try as a prophylactic. I can't remeber exactly, but I think I gradually increased over a ew weeks up to 400mg (~200mg twice a day) and stayed that dose for at least a couple of months. I did not get any noticable reduction in frequency of migraine. Then I gradually reduced back down to ~100mg (2x50) or less. I have no clear reason to think I need that much, and I may reduce further - 20mg may be plenty. I have no reason to think anyone else would benefit from that high dose unless they are migraineurs, in which case it might be worth a try.

 

[DaveFoster]

If you suspect severe deficiency and need higher doses, just spread throughout the day, instead of a insane amount in a single time. The excess will be excreted between them, especially B vits..

This is a great idea; I definitely will try it.

I tried high dose riboflavin specificaly because there were a couple of studies showing 200mg or 400 mg significantly reduced severity and duration of migraines for a good chunk of the migraineurs who tried it. It seemed a pretty benign thing to try as a prophylactic. I can't remeber exactly, but I think I gradually increased over a ew weeks up to 400mg (~200mg twice a day) and stayed that dose for at least a couple of months. I did not get any noticable reduction in frequency of migraine. Then I gradually reduced back down to ~100mg (2x50) or less. I have no clear reason to think I need that much, and I may reduce further - 20mg may be plenty. I have no reason to think anyone else would benefit from that high dose unless they are migraineurs, in which case it might be worth a try.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I'm thinking of trying a dose until I notice some improvement in vision, as I don't have migraines to worry about.

 

[Antonello]

@Amazoniac some interesting teories from PhoenixRising forum:

From my working with B2, I've seen that the other B vitamins rely on B2 to be activated or converted or used correctly. So by taking the B complex and juicing which concentrates nutrients you kept slowly depleting your storage locations of B2

The other bad thing about taking a complex is that you can absorb the several thousands of % of the other B's they put in them. But you can only absorb a fraction of the B2 so the complex itself is unbalanced.

Regarding a B complex. There are way too many of the B's you don't store in your body, that are contained in a complex. And by taking all of them, as soon as they are absorbed, B2 activates them so that lowers the B2. Then the body realizes you don't need that quantity of them and you urinate them away. So you do not get any benefit of additional B's that aren't stored and you only tax the B2 storage locations in your body.

You also require B2, usable B6 and usable iron to create niacin from tryptophan. In the energy cycle, you require many reactions that require niacin, so again you can see adequate B2 is required to run the reaction because it is needed to convert B6 and produce niacin and convert folic acid to its usable form as well as allow absorption of B12 all needed in the citric acid cycle. You also need B12 to recycle Folic Acid. You also require the usable form of FA to convert choline to its usable form, which allows the liver to store manganese and the citric acid cycle to use choline.

Vitamin B2 status is strongly affected by intake of vitamin B1. Adequate supplies of vitamin B1 can help increase levels of vitamin B2. However, very high levels of vitamin B1 intake can increase the loss of vitamin B2 in the urine. Other nutrients, especially iron, zinc, folate, vitamin B3 and vitamin B12 are not fully available in the body without adequate supplies of riboflavin.

Studies show that niacin deficiency can be caused by riboflavin deficiency. Much of your niacin, over 30% is formed from the amino acid tryptophan (found in high quantity in dairy), B2, B6 and iron. Niacin deficiency causes the mucus membranes of the body to become blackened, which reverses with correction of the deficiency - whether from niacin or a combination of the other factors.