Milk Thistle (silibinin) May Treat Cushing Disease And High Cortisol

[haidut]

I don't have access to the study but it was both in vitro and vivo. The group behind the research has already filed a patent on silibinin for treating Cushing disease, so they sure believe it is effective. Give the suppression of silibinin on ACTH, this probably led to significant reductions in cortisol as well since symptoms in the treated mice disappeared completely. Milk thistle may be another option for reducing cortisol, even though it is estrogenic in higher doses. It also chelates iron, which explains some its protective effects on the liver and neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimers.

http://planetsave.com/2015/02/17/milk-t ... rch-finds/
http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/vaop/n ... .3776.html

 

[Such_Saturation]

Milk thistle can save the liver from poisonous mushrooms and carbon tetrachloride, so maybe the benefit comes from the better liver function.

 

[haidut]

Given the recent posts on many people having issues with cortisol, I just wanted to add that the human equivalent dose was 1,000mg - 1,500mg milk thistle extract per day taken for 30 days. One of the authors did his doctoral dissertation on this topic and has published it freely online. That's where I got the dose from.
http://edoc.ub.uni-muenchen.de/17788/1/ ... athias.pdf

A standard extract sold in the USA typically has 175mg - 200mg extract per capsule, so this means taking 6-8 capsules a day. This is not far off from the 4-6 capsules a day taken to reverse type II diabetes in humans, and it also makes me wonder if the relief in type II diabetes was actually due to diminished cortisol. Elevated cortisol is a prime culprit in insulin resistance and type II diabetes.

 

[SQu]

Haidut I bought a tincture of milk thistle yesterday and was told to take 30 drops 3 times a day. After 2 such doses I'm feeling somewhat better. Slept better. But I don't know how much I'm getting because they couldn't tell me how much extract is in the tincture. Looking into it I've found that the amount of extract in a tincture can be between 10 and 20% . If it's 10, I'd be getting 9 drops a day which seems to be about a third of a ml. But it's still ml not mg. I can't open that link though .any thoughts on dosage with the tincture?

 

[haidut]

Haidut I bought a tincture of milk thistle yesterday and was told to take 30 drops 3 times a day. After 2 such doses I'm feeling somewhat better. Slept better. But I don't know how much I'm getting because they couldn't tell me how much extract is in the tincture. Looking into it I've found that the amount of extract in a tincture can be between 10 and 20% . If it's 10, I'd be getting 9 drops a day which seems to be about a third of a ml. But it's still ml not mg. I can't open that link though .any thoughts on dosage with the tincture?

Without product specifications I have no idea what amount you are getting from the tincture. For simplicity you can assume 1ml = 1,000mg but not all of it is extract obviously. It will also depend on what amount of sylimarin/silibinin the extract was standardized for.

 

[javacody]

Haidut, I asked Ray about Milk Thistle and he recommended against it because of estrogen.

I would think that an obese person should probably get their liver function optimal first, and then worry about estrogen.

What do you think?

How much milk thistle becomes a problem regarding estrogen levels?

Is there anyway to get the benefits and reduce the estrogen side effects?

 

[haidut]

Haidut, I asked Ray about Milk Thistle and he recommended against it because of estrogen.

I would think that an obese person should probably get their liver function optimal first, and then worry about estrogen.

What do you think?

How much milk thistle becomes a problem regarding estrogen levels?

Is there anyway to get the benefits and reduce the estrogen side effects?

I agree that it is estrogenic, but I don't know at what point it becomes dangerously so. The reason I posted about it is that there are not many supplements that can lower cortisol and if it is as effective as the research claims then it would be an option for some people with high cortisol.
As far as liver function - vitamin K2 and caffeine, taurine, glycine, theanine can do the trick without the estrogenic side effects.

 

[javacody]

[sub][/sub]

Haidut, I asked Ray about Milk Thistle and he recommended against it because of estrogen.

I would think that an obese person should probably get their liver function optimal first, and then worry about estrogen.

What do you think?

How much milk thistle becomes a problem regarding estrogen levels?

Is there anyway to get the benefits and reduce the estrogen side effects?

I agree that it is estrogenic, but I don't know at what point it becomes dangerously so. The reason I posted about it is that there are not many supplements that can lower cortisol and if it is as effective as the research claims then it would be an option for some people with high cortisol.
As far as liver function - vitamin K2 and caffeine, taurine, glycine, theanine can do the trick without the estrogenic side effects.

I just read your high protein fixes fatty liver thread.

I'm taking a dropperful of Thorne's K2 and one softgel of the LEF K complex. I'm drinking a pot of coffee per day as well. Also, 2 to 4 TB of collagen.

I need to add Taurine back in.

What are the symptoms of improving liver function I should be looking for?

 

[haidut]

[sub][/sub]

Haidut, I asked Ray about Milk Thistle and he recommended against it because of estrogen.

I would think that an obese person should probably get their liver function optimal first, and then worry about estrogen.

What do you think?

How much milk thistle becomes a problem regarding estrogen levels?

Is there anyway to get the benefits and reduce the estrogen side effects?

I agree that it is estrogenic, but I don't know at what point it becomes dangerously so. The reason I posted about it is that there are not many supplements that can lower cortisol and if it is as effective as the research claims then it would be an option for some people with high cortisol.
As far as liver function - vitamin K2 and caffeine, taurine, glycine, theanine can do the trick without the estrogenic side effects.

I just read your high protein fixes fatty liver thread.

I'm taking a dropperful of Thorne's K2 and one softgel of the LEF K complex. I'm drinking a pot of coffee per day as well. Also, 2 to 4 TB of collagen.

I need to add Taurine back in.

What are the symptoms of improving liver function I should be looking for?

More energy and better skin, hair, etc due to lower estrogen.
Btw, this study says glycine was better than milk thistle and vitamin E for liver health.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20233000

"...RESULTS: Glycine pretreatment markedly decreased transaminase release (AST, 12 hr: glycine 1292 +/- 192 U/L, control 2311 +/- 556 U/L, p < .05; ALT, 12 hr: glycine 1013 +/- 278 U/L, control 2038 +/- 500 U/L, p < .05), serum ALP activity and serum bilirubin levels (p < .05). Prothrombin time was reduced, and histologically, liver injury was also decreased in the glycine group. Silibinin pretreatment was less advantageous and pretreatment with alpha-tocopherol at this very high dose showed some adverse effects. Combined, i.e., triple pretreatment was less advantageous than glycine alone. Liver resection induced HIF-1alpha accumulation and HIF-1alpha accumulation was also decreased by glycine pretreatment."

So, if you are ingesting enough glycine there is probably no need for taurine. I suggest you start a separate thread on these questions, this is a thread about milk thistle and cortisol.

 

[Elephanto]

I had a study where 360mg of milk thistle would raise igfbp3, and decrease igf1 but every superior doses would decrease igfbp3 (the next dose being 500something). Estrogen is known to cleave igfbp3 (but also cortisol), so any superior doses was definitely not beneficial, I can't think of a single thing that decreases igfbp3 and still can be beneficial. Can't find the study anymore but there's this one that has similar results :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17617146
"plasma IGFBP-3 levels increased in mice fed with 0.1% silibinin (tumour IGFBP-3 mRNA levels, 156% higher vs control-diet group, P = 0.007; and plasma IGFBP-3 levels, 61% higher vs control-diet group, P = 0.002) but not in mice fed with the higher silibinin pellet strengths"

 

[Iron Man]

Well... I am going to be a guinea pig on this one... I believe my cortisol is high and I just ordered some milk thistle capsules. I will hit it hard (not crazy) for a month and then go in for more blood tests. The estrogen worries me a bit being my testosterone is so low, but I want to get my liver and other things under control first and then work on the others.

I will keep you posted...

 

[charlie]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/91085/ Well... I am going to be a guinea pig on this one... I believe my cortisol is high and I just ordered some milk thistle capsules. I will hit it hard (not crazy) for a month and then go in for more blood tests. The estrogen worries me a bit being my testosterone is so low, but I want to get my liver and other things under control first and then work on the others.

I will keep you posted...

Any update?

 

[Iron Man]

My ferritin levels actually went up... That is after I have been taking IP6, Choline and Milk Thistle.

So, I am stumped...

 

[haidut]

post 98546 My ferritin levels actually went up... That is after I have been taking IP6, Choline and Milk Thistle.

So, I am stumped...

OK, what about cortisol and liver parameters? I thought you'd be taking milk thistle for those issues.

 

[Iron Man]

I have no idea what my cortisol is. The Doc is testing for this next time.

This was my anemia profile in April 2015 -

Anaemia Profile

Iron - 22 umol/L ( Reference Range - 5 - 30 )
TIBC - 62 umol/L ( Reference Range - 45 - 72 )
Saturation - 35% ( Reference Range - 20 - 55 )
Ferritin - 242 ug/L ( Reference Range - 25 - 220 )

This was my anemia profile in September 2015 -

Anaemia Profile

Iron - 22 umol/L ( Reference Range - 5 - 30 )
Transferrin - 2.3 g/L ( Reference Range - 1.9 - 3.1 )
Haemolysis Index - 7 ( Reference Range - 0 - 40 )
TIBC - 57 umol/L ( Reference Range - 45 - 72 )
Trans Saturation - 39% ( Reference Range - 20 - 55 )
Ferritin - 287 ug/L ( Reference Range - 25 - 300 ) - The lab seemed to change the range?

 

[Katty]

Wondering if you kept up with the milk thistle and have an update to report.

 

[haidut]

post 98644 I have no idea what my cortisol is. The Doc is testing for this next time.

This was my anemia profile in April 2015 -

Anaemia Profile

Iron - 22 umol/L ( Reference Range - 5 - 30 )
TIBC - 62 umol/L ( Reference Range - 45 - 72 )
Saturation - 35% ( Reference Range - 20 - 55 )
Ferritin - 242 ug/L ( Reference Range - 25 - 220 )

This was my anemia profile in September 2015 -

Anaemia Profile

Iron - 22 umol/L ( Reference Range - 5 - 30 )
Transferrin - 2.3 g/L ( Reference Range - 1.9 - 3.1 )
Haemolysis Index - 7 ( Reference Range - 0 - 40 )
TIBC - 57 umol/L ( Reference Range - 45 - 72 )
Trans Saturation - 39% ( Reference Range - 20 - 55 )
Ferritin - 287 ug/L ( Reference Range - 25 - 300 ) - The lab seemed to change the range?

You ferritin was high before and it is pretty close to upper limit now. Optimal ferritin is close to the lower end of the range. With ferritin that high you probably have some inflammatory condition that cortisol is trying to take care of and this is why it is elevated.

 

[Katty]

post 110754

post 98644 I have no idea what my cortisol is. The Doc is testing for this next time.

This was my anemia profile in April 2015 -

Anaemia Profile

Iron - 22 umol/L ( Reference Range - 5 - 30 )
TIBC - 62 umol/L ( Reference Range - 45 - 72 )
Saturation - 35% ( Reference Range - 20 - 55 )
Ferritin - 242 ug/L ( Reference Range - 25 - 220 )

This was my anemia profile in September 2015 -

Anaemia Profile

Iron - 22 umol/L ( Reference Range - 5 - 30 )
Transferrin - 2.3 g/L ( Reference Range - 1.9 - 3.1 )
Haemolysis Index - 7 ( Reference Range - 0 - 40 )
TIBC - 57 umol/L ( Reference Range - 45 - 72 )
Trans Saturation - 39% ( Reference Range - 20 - 55 )
Ferritin - 287 ug/L ( Reference Range - 25 - 300 ) - The lab seemed to change the range?

You ferritin was high before and it is pretty close to upper limit now. Optimal ferritin is close to the lower end of the range. With ferritin that high you probably have some inflammatory condition that cortisol is trying to take care of and this is why it is elevated.

How would he go about finding what the inflammatory condition is?

 

[haidut]

post 111023

post 110754

post 98644 I have no idea what my cortisol is. The Doc is testing for this next time.

This was my anemia profile in April 2015 -

Anaemia Profile

Iron - 22 umol/L ( Reference Range - 5 - 30 )
TIBC - 62 umol/L ( Reference Range - 45 - 72 )
Saturation - 35% ( Reference Range - 20 - 55 )
Ferritin - 242 ug/L ( Reference Range - 25 - 220 )

This was my anemia profile in September 2015 -

Anaemia Profile

Iron - 22 umol/L ( Reference Range - 5 - 30 )
Transferrin - 2.3 g/L ( Reference Range - 1.9 - 3.1 )
Haemolysis Index - 7 ( Reference Range - 0 - 40 )
TIBC - 57 umol/L ( Reference Range - 45 - 72 )
Trans Saturation - 39% ( Reference Range - 20 - 55 )
Ferritin - 287 ug/L ( Reference Range - 25 - 300 ) - The lab seemed to change the range?

You ferritin was high before and it is pretty close to upper limit now. Optimal ferritin is close to the lower end of the range. With ferritin that high you probably have some inflammatory condition that cortisol is trying to take care of and this is why it is elevated.

How would he go about finding what the inflammatory condition is?

I would check ESR, CRP and LDH. If they are all elevated then it is pretty certain inflammation is high somewhere. If LDH is elevated, there is a test for LDH isoenzymes, which are expressed in certain tissues. So, the test checks LDH1, LDH2, LDH3, LDH4. Depending on which isoenzyme is elevated it will tell the doctor what organ/tissue to start looking into.
I would also suggest asking the doctor for a 24-h urinary cortisol and AM/PM blood cortisol test to confirm the high cortisol. It could have been a temporary elevation.
Finally, I would ask for a full liver profile test. With ferritin at that level I would not be surprised if liver function is also suboptimal.

 

[messtafarian]

I agree that it is estrogenic, but I don't know at what point it becomes dangerously so. The reason I posted about it is that there are not many supplements that can lower cortisol and if it is as effective as the research claims then it would be an option for some people with high cortisol.
As far as liver function - vitamin K2 and caffeine, taurine, glycine, theanine can do the trick without the estrogenic side effects.

I ran into the same thing with Rhodiola. It will lower/control cortisol but it's estrogenic, as a great number of herbal supplements are.