Zinc Supplements - Clarification On Ray's Comment

[Amazoniac]

Does someone know in details why Ray has stated (from the email exchanges) that zinc supplements can be problematic when are consumed for a long time, possibly oxidizing other nutrients..?
And is this a problem when it's already chelated (as zinc pboylinate, etc)?

 

[Wilfrid]

Zinc from supplements = cadmium contamination.
Cadmium, especially, in presence of transition metal ion such as zinc ( or copper ) can initiate strong redox reactions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21820296/

Which may be why RP prefers to warn people against Zinc from supplement rather than from foods ( zinc in foods go through natural biological purification process. ).
This is my interpretation I don't know if it's valid or not. Hopefully others will chime in with others possible explanations.

 

[Amazoniac]

Zinc from supplements = cadmium contamination.
Cadmium, especially, in presence of transition metal ion such as zinc ( or copper ) can initiate strong redox reactions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21820296/

Which may be why RP prefers to warn people against Zinc from supplement rather than from foods ( zinc in foods go through natural biological purification process. ).
This is my interpretation I don't know if it's valid or not. Hopefully others will chime in with others possible explanations.

You've been experimenting for a long time with zinc supplements, right? How was your experience with them?

 

[lexis]

Zinc may lower sodium levels and thus cause nausea.My experience

 

[jb116]

Zinc can be anti thyroid as it interferes with copper. Derived from food though you normally get good levels balanced with other nutrients like copper.

 

[Wilfrid]

Not really.
I've been taking, now and then, low dose of zinc sulfate.
I stopped when I was re-reading " Nutrition for women " lately, Ray mentionned the cadmium thing in it, and doing some personnal research about vitamins/minerals and minerals/minerals interactions.
I never felt any differences when taking the supp except that I got the " sweet taste " mouth feeling after taking it. Which is supposed to indicate a zinc deficiency ( when using the liquid form of zinc sulfate ). To avoid stomach upset, I divided the drops ( 30:3 to get 7,5 mg of zinc element ), putting those on the back of my hand and then licked the drops one by one.
A customer on iherb.com called Health is wealth has made very very good reviews about supplements interactions.
I now decided to play it safe and to stop all supp except low dose preg and thyroid.
For the zinc source, I'm currently making extract myself from zinc-rich wheat germ every day.

 

[brandonk]

post 104483
For the zinc source, I'm currently making extract myself from zinc-rich wheat germ every day.

Can you please share how you make the extract? Is it fermented like Avemar?
http://www.denvernaturopathic.com/pooli ... mbread.htm

 

[Wilfrid]

post 104488

post 104483
For the zinc source, I'm currently making extract myself from zinc-rich wheat germ every day.

Can you please share how you make the extract? Is it fermented like Avemar?
http://www.denvernaturopathic.com/pooli ... mbread.htm

Hi,
It's just a cold water extract.
Much like iron extract made from wheat germ that Ray has wrote in one of his online articles.
I just mixed 2-3 tbsp of wheat germ in a cup of water and then leave it overnight in the fridge.
The next morning, I use a coffee filter to separate the liquid from the soaked germ. I use Dr Ritter's wheat germ brand.
It's, sadly, often overlooked but water is a very potent solvent.

 

[jyb]

post 104483 Not really.
I've been taking, now and then, low dose of zinc sulfate.
I stopped when I was re-reading " Nutrition for women " lately, Ray mentionned the cadmium thing in it, and doing some personnal research about vitamins/minerals and minerals/minerals interactions.
I never felt any differences when taking the supp except that I got the " sweet taste " mouth feeling after taking it. Which is supposed to indicate a zinc deficiency ( when using the liquid form of zinc sulfate ). To avoid stomach upset, I divided the drops ( 30:3 to get 7,5 mg of zinc element ), putting those on the back of my hand and then licked the drops one by one.
A customer on iherb.com called Health is wealth has made very very good reviews about supplements interactions.
I now decided to play it safe and to stop all supp except low dose preg and thyroid.
For the zinc source, I'm currently making extract myself from zinc-rich wheat germ every day.

This sounds like useful advice. Is there good evidence that soaking wheat germs in water yields any significant, absorbable zinc content?

 

[Wilfrid]

post 104508

post 104483 Not really.
I've been taking, now and then, low dose of zinc sulfate.
I stopped when I was re-reading " Nutrition for women " lately, Ray mentionned the cadmium thing in it, and doing some personnal research about vitamins/minerals and minerals/minerals interactions.
I never felt any differences when taking the supp except that I got the " sweet taste " mouth feeling after taking it. Which is supposed to indicate a zinc deficiency ( when using the liquid form of zinc sulfate ). To avoid stomach upset, I divided the drops ( 30:3 to get 7,5 mg of zinc element ), putting those on the back of my hand and then licked the drops one by one.
A customer on iherb.com called Health is wealth has made very very good reviews about supplements interactions.
I now decided to play it safe and to stop all supp except low dose preg and thyroid.
For the zinc source, I'm currently making extract myself from zinc-rich wheat germ every day.

This sounds like useful advice. Is there good evidence that soaking wheat germs in water yields any significant, absorbable zinc content?

It is hard to tell exactly.
But slight extrapolation from plants mineral extraction with water (note that in the following study, they were using both " brew " and " infuse " method with hot water for around 5 minutes.Since I don't want to use hot water with the germ, in the " cold water " extract that I make, the soaking/infusing time is up to 8 hours...) would give something like around 60-70% of Zn extraction.

http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0367 ... 00098R.pdf

However, after consulting with a chemist friend of mine and based also on some french studies about cold extraction method of plant's mineral content ( Studies made by Lapraz and Durafour M.D ), I would dare to say something close to 80~90% percent of fully active and absorbable extracted Zn element from the germ ( for a soaking/infusing time above 6 to 7 hours and made with cold water ).
I think that the amount of wheat germ extracted Zn could represents a fair and safe supplement.
Zn content vary greatly between wheat germ brand. The one I quoted do contains a very good amount of it.
Maple syrup is also a very good source of Zn.

 

[jyb]

It is hard to tell exactly.
But slight extrapolation from plants mineral extraction with water (note that in the following study, they were using both " brew " and " infuse " method with hot water for around 5 minutes.Since I don't want to use hot water with the germ, in the " cold water " extract that I make, the soaking/infusing time is up to 8 hours...) would give something like around 60-70% of Zn extraction.

http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0367 ... 00098R.pdf

However, after consulting with a chemist friend of mine and based also on some french studies about cold extraction method of plant's mineral content ( Studies made by Lapraz and Durafour M.D ), I would dare to say something close to 80~90% percent of fully active and absorbable extracted Zn element from the germ ( for a soaking/infusing time above 6 to 7 hours and made with cold water ).
I think that the amount of wheat germ extracted Zn could represents a fair and safe supplement.
Zn content vary greatly between wheat germ brand. The one I quoted do contains a very good amount of it.
Maple syrup is also a very good source of Zn.

It seems a bit like brewers yeast but for zinc wheat germ is preferred. I would guess the main advantage for these supplements is for when there are absorption problems, because otherwise I don't see why it would be superior to just eating beef liver or other beef cuts. And convenience too. The brand you mentioned doesn't seem very mainstream. Getting some organic wheat germ is easy, but hard to know how much minerals they actually have without seeing some analysis.

 

[Agent207]

What do you think about keeping oysters in the freezer and defrosting 2 everyday and adding them to dinner?

 

[Amazoniac]

I've considered that but it's hard to find reliable oysters in general and they spoil really fast..

 

[YuraCZ]

If you have zinc:copper ratio 7:1 or 8:1 only from foods, then you don't need supplement with zinc. With Ray Peat approach Beef liver = extremely high copper content and also if you use alot of gelatin-collagen/cocoa etc. which is also high in copper. Then you will have way too high copper to zinc ratio. But people here don't think that zinc/copper imbalance can be an issue. So whatever..

 

[Amazoniac]

Exactly, people here don't think that their balance can't be an issue.

 

[YuraCZ]

post 104917 Exactly, people here don't think that their balance can't be an issue.

thx..

 

[narouz]

Int J Food Sci Nutr. 2001 Jul;52(4):379-82.
Cadmium in zinc-containing mineral supplements.
Krone CA1, Wyse EJ, Ely JT.
Author information
Abstract
Seven zinc-containing dietary supplements were analyzed for zinc (Zn) and cadmium (Cd) by inductively coupled plasma/mass spectrometry (ICP/MS). Cadmium was detected in all samples; however, the amount of Cd per 15 mg Zn (the daily US Recommended Dietary Allowance) varied by over 37-fold (0.039 to 1.46 micrograms Cd/15 mg Zn). Supplements with Zn in the form of a gluconate consistently contained the lowest amounts of Cd. Because Cd is a non-essential potentially toxic element for humans, its concentration in nutritional supplements should be minimized and possibly regulated by government-established standards.

 

[Amazoniac]

Are there any objections regarding zinc picolinate, apart from the concerns with contamination with heavy metals? It used to be favoured as one of the best forms around here but for some reason unknown to me zinc gluconate has been recommended more often. Why?

 

[goodandevil]

post 104909

It is hard to tell exactly.
But slight extrapolation from plants mineral extraction with water (note that in the following study, they were using both " brew " and " infuse " method with hot water for around 5 minutes.Since I don't want to use hot water with the germ, in the " cold water " extract that I make, the soaking/infusing time is up to 8 hours...) would give something like around 60-70% of Zn extraction.

http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0367 ... 00098R.pdf

However, after consulting with a chemist friend of mine and based also on some french studies about cold extraction method of plant's mineral content ( Studies made by Lapraz and Durafour M.D ), I would dare to say something close to 80~90% percent of fully active and absorbable extracted Zn element from the germ ( for a soaking/infusing time above 6 to 7 hours and made with cold water ).
I think that the amount of wheat germ extracted Zn could represents a fair and safe supplement.
Zn content vary greatly between wheat germ brand. The one I quoted do contains a very good amount of it.
Maple syrup is also a very good source of Zn.

It seems a bit like brewers yeast but for zinc wheat germ is preferred. I would guess the main advantage for these supplements is for when there are absorption problems, because otherwise I don't see why it would be superior to just eating beef liver or other beef cuts. And convenience too. The brand you mentioned doesn't seem very mainstream. Getting some organic wheat germ is easy, but hard to know how much minerals they actually have without seeing some analysis.

No radiation, too

 

[tara]

What do you think about keeping oysters in the freezer and defrosting 2 everyday and adding them to dinner?

I've frozen oysters a few times. Most recently I used an ice cube tray to separate them, so it's easy to get out one or two. I'd love to eat 2 a day but can't afford it. So it's one or two now and then.