Caffeine - A "new" Drug For Depression / Social Defeat

Caffeine has been popping up in the news lately. Several studies caught my eye, so I am posting them here. Two independent groups of researchers found out that caffeine protects against stress-induced mood and memory dysfunction. One of the studies focused on depression and found that increase in cAMP by inhibition of PDE-4 is very effective (and caffeine is very good at doing both). Of course, they don't mention caffeine but a proprietary molecule, which they are about to patent. The other study actually used caffeine in a mouse model and found caffeine to be effective at relieving cognitive deficits and mood problems (depression) associated with chronic stress.
The last study focused social defeat, which is induced and maintained by serotonin. As expected, caffeine enhanced resilience to social defeat through its dopaminergic mechanisms given that blocking the D1 and D2 receptors eliminated caffeine protective effects. So, caffeine is dopaminergic, as we have discussed a number of times, and it could be a good non-drug option for people willing to move their profile away from serotonin and towards dopamine.
Finally, given the anti-depressant effects of caffeine and the similar effects of zinc, I think a zinc + caffeine combo would be synergistic and the calming effects of zinc may help counter the stress response to caffeine some people get.
Unfortunately, the studies are behind a paywall so I can't get into on human doses. If someone can get these studies and PM me I'd appreciate it.

http://www.newswise.com/articles/manipu ... i98.reddit
http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vao ... .4066.html

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/06/ ... ic-stress/
http://www.pnas.org/content/112/25/7833.abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25474697

Have you tried CILTEP? It's a forskolin and artichoke combination.

Such_Saturation said:

Have you tried CILTEP? It's a forskolin and artichoke combination.

Click to expand...

I haven't but forskolin has been found to be very estrogenic in animals. It was very promising a couple of years ago and pharma wanted to patent it as a heart failure drug. After the studies showing it was estrogenic they more of less gave up on the idea.

Forskolin feels like CDP-Choline when I tried them.

I took a 100mg caffeine No-Doz tablet this morning with 125mg lithium carbonate. I don't know the mechanism -- actually I believe modern science doesn't know either, but according to my therapist lithium enhances the effects of psychotropics. I can confirm this as far as sedation from quetiapine goes: way more potent when taken with lithium. The caffeine did lift my mood and I stayed mood-elevated all day, without the anxiety I usually get from a cup of coffee. This is a welcome change for me since I've been in a slump for about 3 weeks now. I'm going to tinker with this and see if it can keep my moods higher than average. The only issue was crazy acid reflux. Any way to prevent this?

kineticz said:

Forskolin feels like CDP-Choline when I tried them.

Click to expand...

Try it with some artichoke extract, it's like

Such_Saturation said:

kineticz said:

Forskolin feels like CDP-Choline when I tried them.

Click to expand...

Try it with some artichoke extract, it's like

Click to expand...

I would love to, I am however on an upward recovery trend thanks to haidut, mainly because, if you recall I said to you (you suggested it was high estrogen, which makes sense), I can have a good day recovery then wake up back to square one after 'sleep'.

We are focusing on my propensity to have high cortisol and high prolactin directly proportional. So I have really cut back on sugar as I gained 10kg on fructose and fruit juice, with no improvement in health, until progesterone can increase and prolactin is reduced during the sleep cycle.

Also I believe that ingestion of sugar at the wrong time can cause adrenal issues.

At a time where cells and glands replenish at night, my cells have not been respiring which has been increasing excitotoxicity. In this instance it is actually worse to sleep, especially as it promotes oversleeping where everything shuts down.

I have increased my sodium bicarbonate to 600mg (makes me light on my feet and breathe much clearer), potassium to 50mg, magnesium to 1g, and drink milk all day for calcium.

I drink fruit juice all day but not around sleep, as high blood sugar at night (hyperglycemia is associated with oxidative stress) can overwhelm ACTH stopping you from getting up at the right time.

My blend of coffee (1 portion 100mg caffeine), 30g protein, and 2g MCT coconut oil is an awesome pick-me-up for mornings. I actually sleep better if I have one before bed too lol.

Last night I took an anti-histamine and 5mg DHEA before bed and had no nightmares or night sweats, just a very deeeeeeep sleep.

I stopped forskolin when I got overwhelmed with the amount of pathways it potentially interacts with (cAmp, HPTA, etc) so didn't want to risk more dysfunction. Like CDP-Choline it would sometimes make me very anxious and dilate my pupils.

I have had very positive results with activated liver b vitamins (methylcobalumine, methylfolate, P5P) but then I got to a stage where my metabolism couldn't process the clearance so I'm back to nutrition. I think my kidneys can only take so much.

Zinc seems to protect from glutamate toxcity

http://www.upmc.com/media/NewsReleases/ ... -nmda.aspx

Such_Saturation said:

post 91712

kineticz said:

Forskolin feels like CDP-Choline when I tried them.

Click to expand...

Try it with some artichoke extract, it's like

Click to expand...

CILTEP is great, but I found it induced a stress response in me if I used it in combination with caffeine.

The amount of Forskolin in CILTEP is small (20mg) compared to what is used in the body building community (or so I've heard). The makers say caffeine inhibits the action of Forskolin though, so they say to give it 30-60 minutes before drinking coffee. Even doing so, I would get low level panic attacks.

Alas, I have a full bottle sitting in front of me and will probably take some later cause the mental buzz is amazing.

CoolTweetPete said:

post 104036

Such_Saturation said:

post 91712

kineticz said:

Forskolin feels like CDP-Choline when I tried them.

Click to expand...

Try it with some artichoke extract, it's like

Click to expand...

CILTEP is great, but I found it induced a stress response in me if I used it in combination with caffeine.

The amount of Forskolin in CILTEP is small (20mg) compared to what is used in the body building community (or so I've heard). The makers say caffeine inhibits the action of Forskolin though, so they say to give it 30-60 minutes before drinking coffee. Even doing so, I would get low level panic attacks.

Alas, I have a full bottle sitting in front of me and will probably take some later cause the mental buzz is amazing.

Click to expand...

I think caffeine only stops the unwanted PDE (the Viagra one) which is one of the side effects of the CILTEP.

kineticz said:

post 91718

Click to expand...

Well I didn't exactly recommend it for health

Such_Saturation said:

post 104050

CoolTweetPete said:

post 104036

Such_Saturation said:

post 91712

kineticz said:

Forskolin feels like CDP-Choline when I tried them.

Click to expand...

Try it with some artichoke extract, it's like

Click to expand...

CILTEP is great, but I found it induced a stress response in me if I used it in combination with caffeine.

The amount of Forskolin in CILTEP is small (20mg) compared to what is used in the body building community (or so I've heard). The makers say caffeine inhibits the action of Forskolin though, so they say to give it 30-60 minutes before drinking coffee. Even doing so, I would get low level panic attacks.

Alas, I have a full bottle sitting in front of me and will probably take some later cause the mental buzz is amazing.

Click to expand...

I think caffeine only stops the unwanted PDE (the Viagra one) which is one of the side effects of the CILTEP.

Click to expand...

So caffeine and CILTEP are both PDE5 inhibitors?

CoolTweetPete said:

post 104055
So caffeine and CILTEP are both PDE5 inhibitors?

Click to expand...

No I think the creator said caffeine stopped that inhibition or something. Anyhow it did stop my erections.

Natural Compounds in Grapes Could Lead Us to An Epigenetic Treatment for Depression | What is Epigenetics?

this article refers a study that showed that Dihydro-Caffeic acid, which is also in Coffe, can elicit epigentic changes that might cure affective disorders

haidut said:

Caffeine has been popping up in the news lately. Several studies caught my eye, so I am posting them here. Two independent groups of researchers found out that caffeine protects against stress-induced mood and memory dysfunction. One of the studies focused on depression and found that increase in cAMP by inhibition of PDE-4 is very effective (and caffeine is very good at doing both). Of course, they don't mention caffeine but a proprietary molecule, which they are about to patent. The other study actually used caffeine in a mouse model and found caffeine to be effective at relieving cognitive deficits and mood problems (depression) associated with chronic stress.
The last study focused social defeat, which is induced and maintained by serotonin. As expected, caffeine enhanced resilience to social defeat through its dopaminergic mechanisms given that blocking the D1 and D2 receptors eliminated caffeine protective effects. So, caffeine is dopaminergic, as we have discussed a number of times, and it could be a good non-drug option for people willing to move their profile away from serotonin and towards dopamine.
Finally, given the anti-depressant effects of caffeine and the similar effects of zinc, I think a zinc + caffeine combo would be synergistic and the calming effects of zinc may help counter the stress response to caffeine some people get.
Unfortunately, the studies are behind a paywall so I can't get into on human doses. If someone can get these studies and PM me I'd appreciate it.

http://www.newswise.com/articles/manipu ... i98.reddit
http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vao ... .4066.html

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/06/ ... ic-stress/
http://www.pnas.org/content/112/25/7833.abstract

Chronic caffeine treatment enhances the resilience to social defeat stress in mice - PubMed

Click to expand...

Is there any reason for being dopaminergic of chronic caffeine? Would the upregulation off adenosine receptor by chronic caffeine ingestion prevent cAMP-induced sensetivity of cells to dopamine and endocannabinoids? Or caffeine has antiadenosinergic activity even after chronic ingestion? @haidut

NewACC said:

Is there any reason for being dopaminergic of chronic caffeine? Would the upregulation off adenosine receptor by chronic caffeine ingestion prevent cAMP-induced sensetivity of cells to dopamine and endocannabinoids? Or caffeine has antiadenosinergic activity even after chronic ingestion? @haidut

Click to expand...

Update @haidut