Amino Acid Supplementation For People With Poor Digestion

tara

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Parsifal said:
post 103137 This is an interesting thread.

Hasn't RP said that protein powders are not good because they are more oxidized?
I don't think Peat recommends protein powders in general because of oxidation and maybe other dessication damage.
And he is suspicious of contamination in isolated amino acids, I think.
He generally recommends food.

I'm assuming the value of powders may be as a temporary measure when eating, absorbing, digesting or using protein foods is particularly difficult, or to therapeutically modify amino acid ratios to address a particular condition.
Otherwise, I assume food is preferable.
 
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jitsmonkey

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haidut I've seen protocols where they add 5G of taurine daily to this type of mix. any thoughts on the downside of such dosage?
 

RayOfLight

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haidut said:
post 90891 This topic has come up repeatedly and recently forum member gbolduev raises the issue again, and forum member jyb suggested I post about it. It seems that due to hypothyroidism and other conditions, many people on the forum have a functional protein deficiency due to poor ability to digest protein from food. Some cases can be helped by taking digestive enzymes but others need more drastic measures. There is a growing field of research on restoring protein metabolism in sick people by using direct supplementation with essential amino acids only. This approach achieved positive nitrogen balance with much lower protein intake and has the benefits of generating much less toxic byproducts while also having much higher utilization percentage. Studies often quote numbers on protein utilization and it seems that the highest utilization from food sources is for eggs (45%), followed by milk (30%), meat (25%) all the way down to plant protein (<15%). These numbers show why plant protein is in general not a good food for most people - i.e. you spend a lot of energy to digest and get very little benefit from it.
http://drbillyhealth.com/clean-protein/

"...To illustrate: the most “Heavy” dietary proteins, such as meat, fish or poultry provide an average of 32% NNU. This means that only 32% (Or Less) of their constituent amino acids act as precursors of BPS, to become the body’s tissue. Meanwhile, the remaining 68% (Or More) are catabolized, thus releasing nitrogen catabolites (Basically, harsh poison) and energy.
NOTE 1. Nitrogen catabolites are very caustic to the system, in particular, very hard on the kidneys and liver.
Note 2. Protein is a “Dirty” and inefficient way to get energy… Sensible energy acquisition is by way of carbohydrates primarily, and fats secondarily.
Other typical protein sources; milk, soy, casein or whey (the main proteins found in most protein supplements), only provide an average of 16% NNU. This means that only 16% of their constituent amino acids act as precursors of BPS (What your body wants) . Meanwhile, the remaining 84% are catabolized, thus releasing nitrogen catabolites (What the body does not benefit from). As in the example above (Flesh Foods), this is not considered a healthful dietary choice."
Anyways, below are some studies discussing supplementation with essential amino acids and the benefits form it.

General studies:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25827594
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25772815
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26004031


MAP studies:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14964347
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14964348
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14669816
http://www.optimale-aminosaeuren.de/Lit ... tients.pdf
http://naturalsolutions.nz/articles/MAP ... ct2003.pdf
http://www.masteraminoacidpattern.com/h ... ce_MAP.pdf

The general consensus is that if one ingests ~25g of these amino acids daily one can cover their entire protein needs considering the protein utilization is apparently around 99%.
The MAP studies are from the maker of the MAP amino acid product, so take them with a grain of salt. You can find the MAP product itself on Amazon, but it pricy and you can do your own MAP at home for fraction of the cost. The reported ideal amino acid pattern/ratio for humans is as follows (10g total dose):

L-Isoleucine: 1,483mg
L-Leucine: 1,964mg
L-Valine: 1,657mg
L-Lysine: 1,111mg
L-Methionine: 1,429mg
L-Phenylalanine: 699mg
L-Threonine: 1,289mg
L-Tryptophan: 368mg
_______________________
TOTAL: 10,000mg (10g)

You don't have to take 10g doses to get a benefit. Some of the studies above showed strong health benefits from as little as 3.5g of this mixture, taken several times a day with your meals or on an empty stomach.
One thing to keep in mind is that you don't need all the aminos listed above. As you know, tryptophan, methionine an histidine are not optimal for health. In addition, most people already have them floating around their body in such amounts that taking extra is not necessary. So, you can achieve both increased protein utilization and selective amino acid depletion reported by studies to have beneficial effects (tryptophan, methionine, cysteine, etc). For instance, it is well know that raising body levels of carnosine is beneficial for athletic performance. Rather than take pure carnosine, which is expensive, most studies use beta alanine supplementation since it combines with the plenty of histidine floating around and creates carnosine by also depleting histidine a bit. Similarly, people have a lot of tryptophan floating around bound to albumin and also methionine stored in the liver. Thus, one typically does NOT need to supplement all essential amino acids to trigger protein synthesis (MPS) and by supplementing with only partial essential aminos you get the benefits of selective amino acid depletion as well.
Keeping this in mind, from the above listed aminos one only needs to supplement with leucine, valine, isoleucine, phenylalanine, lysine, and threonine. While the above doses/ratios have been reported to be optimal, you can simplify it a bit by taking a common BCAA product that usually has the BCAA in ratios 2:1:1 leucine:valine:isoleucine and add 500mg of the remainig amino acids. This means that a single dose of the modified MAP would have 1000 leusine, 500mg valine, 500mg isoleucine, 500 phenylalanine, 500mg lysine, and 500mg threonine. If you want to improve the health effects even more you can add glycine, taurine, or beta alanine to this mixture in any doses you want.
You can take this MAP dose several times a day as needed, with or without food. If you are in favor of using more food sources you can achieve similar effects by eating gelatin and supplementing a single dose of BCAA and 500mg threonine (gelatin is deficient in both).
Finally, since tryptophan is missing form this mixture, you will also lower serotonin in the brain by taking it. Overall it looks like a decent way to boost health/metabolism while reaping some additional benefits such as depletion of certain bad amino acids, and lowering serotonin in the brain.
Thoughts?

Haidut regarding the MAP mixture there is a supplement (Humapro) made by a company called ALRI that takes the same approach. I know their marketing looks like the usual bodybuilding BS, but I have used their product and it did feel like It was easy to meet protein requirements on just a handful of Ajinomoto amino acid tablets. Thought I would post this as it's relevant to the discussion of your idea of waste and toxic byproducts when eating normal flesh foods. For more info and a study http://alrindustries.com/humapro Thank you
 

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The idea of using exact amino acids to produce a formulation that has close to 100% utilization and produces positive nitrogen balance and lacks the harmful aminos like tryptophan/methionine/cysteine is significant. With the added convenience of throwing it into a shaker and the overall lower cost of meeting our daily protein intake, we should all be jumping on this -- if only temporarily as an intro to Peating or when whole foods aren't convenient/available.

I've made a version of this using gelatin and BCAAs. In addition to my daily taurine and cheese intake, I easily meet the requirements for threonine.
 

Agent207

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The problem is where to get high grade l-phenylalanine, l-lysine, l-threonine that dont come from dubious dity china sources? BCAA theres Ajinomoto which is more reliable, but where to get those quality aminoacids in powder form?
 
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jb116

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RayOfLight said:

Other Ingredients:

Microcrystalline Cellulose, Carboxymethyl Cellulose, Sodium Starch Glucolate, Magnesium Stearate, Silica, Phytoestrogen free Soy Oil.
 
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Agent207 said:
post 103183 The problem is where to get high grade l-phenylalanine, l-lysine, l-threonine that dont come from dubious dity china sources? BCAA theres Ajinomoto which is more reliable, but where to get those quality aminoacids in powder form?

That will take some research but don't let it stop you from experimenting with gelatin + BCAAs. The reduction in tryptophan and to a lesser extent methionine and cysteine is alone worth experimenting with this.
 
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haidut

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jitsmonkey said:
post 103163 haidut I've seen protocols where they add 5G of taurine daily to this type of mix. any thoughts on the downside of such dosage?

It may irritate your gut, but otherwise it should be OK. I have not seen taurine added to a MAP formula. Maybe you have seen BCAA + taurine mix used by bodybuilders.
Anyways, taurine strongly stimulates bile production and in some people this may lead to gut irritation and loose stools. Other than that, 5g of taurine may lower your blood pressure quite a bit, as well as cause hypoglycemia. So watch out for those.
 
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yomama

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Agent207 said:
post 103183 The problem is where to get high grade l-phenylalanine, l-lysine, l-threonine that dont come from dubious dity china sources? BCAA theres Ajinomoto which is more reliable, but where to get those quality aminoacids in powder form?

Wasnt Ajinomoto using soy as aminos source? Not to mention Ajinomoto is responsible of products like ACTIVA®, a standardized form of Transglutaminase used to make aberrations like this.
 
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RayOfLight

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It's the idea to experiment on our own terms that interests me here (without the nasty additives). Certainly a mix of the correct aminos could come in handy at times when we are pressed for time, training / working hard or have flu and don't feel like preparing a meal. Also a good way to get in a low fat meal every now and then to try lose some extra fat. I like this concept.
 
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RayOfLight said:
post 103225 It's the idea to experiment on our own terms that interests me here (without the nasty additives). Certainly a mix of the correct aminos could come in handy at times when we are pressed for time, training / working hard or have flu and don't feel like preparing a meal. Also a good way to get in a low fat meal every now and then to try lose some extra fat. I like this concept.

Perhaps even more importantly, taking an amino mixture deficient in tryptophan, methionine, and histidine will further deplete these amino acids in the organisms and have the same effect as the restriction studies using a diet lacking in one of these amino acids. The depletion of these 3 aminos will result in lower serotonin, high metabolism, and lower inflammation and histamine. Whether that would extend maximum lifespan like it did in animal studies - time will tell I guess:):
 
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RayOfLight

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haidut said:
post 103227
RayOfLight said:
post 103225 It's the idea to experiment on our own terms that interests me here (without the nasty additives). Certainly a mix of the correct aminos could come in handy at times when we are pressed for time, training / working hard or have flu and don't feel like preparing a meal. Also a good way to get in a low fat meal every now and then to try lose some extra fat. I like this concept.

Perhaps even more importantly, taking an amino mixture deficient in tryptophan, methionine, and histidine will further deplete these amino acids in the organisms and have the same effect as the restriction studies using a diet lacking in one of these amino acids. The depletion of these 3 aminos will result in lower serotonin, high metabolism, and lower inflammation and histamine. Whether that would extend maximum lifespan like it did in animal studies - time will tell I guess:):

For Peat we will deplete, until excess tryptophan is obsolete. PUFA we shall excrete, By Georgi we will reheat :)
 
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ilovewriting

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haidut said:
post 90891 There is a growing field of research on restoring protein metabolism in sick people by using direct supplementation with essential amino acids only. ... Studies often quote numbers on protein utilization and it seems that the highest utilization from food sources is for eggs (45%), followed by milk (30%), meat (25%) all the way down to plant protein (<15%).
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gelatin.shtml

Although pure glycine has its place as a useful and remarkably safe drug, it shouldn't be thought of as a food, because manufactured products are always likely to contain peculiar contaminants.

Keeping in mind that "perhaps half" of studies are believed to be a fraud (http://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/ ... 0696-1.pdf), according to some "studies," collagen hydrolysate derived from animal feet or tail appears to be almost completely and rapidly utilized:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 8-4#page-1
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 906X148373
 
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jitsmonkey

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So replicating the MAP concept MINUS the AAs we're trying to avoid might look like this?


2000 leusine (6g/day)
1600mg valine (4.8g/day)
1500mg isoleucine (4.5g/day)
700 phenylalanine (2.1g/day)
1100mg lysine (3.3g/day)
1200mg threonine (3.6g/day)
500mg glycine (1.5g/day)
500mg taurine (1.5g/day)
500mg beta alanine (1.5g/day)


9.6g roughly 3x/day = 24g total

Haidut would love your thoughts or anyone elses on this being a starting point for some experimentation.
any potential major flaws I've overlooked lemme kno ;-)
 

RayOfLight

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jitsmonkey said:
post 103273 So replicating the MAP concept MINUS the AAs we're trying to avoid might look like this?


2000 leusine (6g/day)
1600mg valine (4.8g/day)
1500mg isoleucine (4.5g/day)
700 phenylalanine (2.1g/day)
1100mg lysine (3.3g/day)
1200mg threonine (3.6g/day)
500mg glycine (1.5g/day)
500mg taurine (1.5g/day)
500mg beta alanine (1.5g/day)


9.6g roughly 3x/day = 24g total

Haidut would love your thoughts or anyone elses on this being a starting point for some experimentation.
any potential major flaws I've overlooked lemme kno ;-)

I'm also giving this a go so would like to hear from Haidut, but from the previous comments, thought this to be the suggested mix:

Isoleucine: 1000mg
Leucine: 500mg
Valine: 500mg
Lysine: 500mg
Phenylalanine: 500mg
Threonine: 500mg
Glycine: 500mg
Taurine: 500mg
Beta alanine: 500mg

Around 10 grams of these aminos to replace 30 grams of animal protein.

Going to replace one meal a day with the above and down it with some fruit to try lose fat. Can we ingest the aminos together with the carbs or should we wait 30 minutes after carbs for better absorption?
 
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haidut

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jitsmonkey said:
post 103273 So replicating the MAP concept MINUS the AAs we're trying to avoid might look like this?


2000 leusine (6g/day)
1600mg valine (4.8g/day)
1500mg isoleucine (4.5g/day)
700 phenylalanine (2.1g/day)
1100mg lysine (3.3g/day)
1200mg threonine (3.6g/day)
500mg glycine (1.5g/day)
500mg taurine (1.5g/day)
500mg beta alanine (1.5g/day)


9.6g roughly 3x/day = 24g total

Haidut would love your thoughts or anyone elses on this being a starting point for some experimentation.
any potential major flaws I've overlooked lemme kno ;-)

Looks fine to me. My BCAA has 1200mg leucine, 600mg isoleucine, 600mg valine so to make things easier I just add 500mg of the remaining amino acids. It has been shown that using equal amount of the essential aminos works just as well, so to keep things simple I do that. So, my version of MAP looks like this:

1,200mg leucine
600mg valine
600mg isoleucine
500 phenylalanine
500mg lysine
500mg threonine
500mg glycine
500mg taurine
500mg beta alanine

The beta alanine is especially helpful since it will combine with histidine and form carnosine. Not only is carnosine beneficial but this will lower the amount of available histidine used to manufacture things like histamine. Things that lower availability of histidine or inhibit synthesis of histamine are known as "atypical antihistamines" and they have no known side effects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritoqualine

So, beta alanine is an atypical antihistamine and has no known side effects. This is a good option for people who cannot tolerate antihistamine drugs like Benadryl or cyproheptadine. Atypical antihistamines have been found to reverse liver fibrosis and have strong inhibiting effect on collagen production and cell division as well. This suggests they may be very helpful for prevention (and maybe even treatment) of cancer.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3710312
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2422424
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2870950
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4029809
 
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RayOfLight

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Haidut this is incredible news. I suffer for 3 months of each year with seasonal allergies. Off to get some beta alanine, thank you!! Any idea of dosage please to act as an antihistamine?
 
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haidut

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RayOfLight said:
post 103365 Haidut this is incredible news. I suffer for 3 months of each year with seasonal allergies. Off to get some beta alanine, thank you!! Any idea of dosage please to act as an antihistamine?

The studies that found ergogenic benefit used 4g - 5g daily. It reacts with histidine in about 1:1 ratio, so if you can drop your histidine stores by 4g - 5g that would be almost depleting all of it. I know people who run a lot more after just 2g of beta alanine.
 
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RayOfLight

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haidut said:
post 103400
RayOfLight said:
post 103365 Haidut this is incredible news. I suffer for 3 months of each year with seasonal allergies. Off to get some beta alanine, thank you!! Any idea of dosage please to act as an antihistamine?

The studies that found ergogenic benefit used 4g - 5g daily. It reacts with histidine in about 1:1 ratio, so if you can drop your histidine stores by 4g - 5g that would be almost depleting all of it. I know people who run a lot more after just 2g of beta alanine.
Thank you!
 
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Agent207

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But Isn't collagen production one of the factors that help to keep your skin from degradating in time?
 

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