Zinc-Induced Copper Deficiency

[deliciousfruit]

Any improvements @deliciousfruit ?

No. I only felt awful effects from the copper bisglycinate. I don't know what to do. I'm just getting worse and worse.

 

[redsun]

No. I only felt awful effects from the copper bisglycinate. I don't know what to do. I'm just getting worse and worse.

Have you ever taken a multivitamin to see if this restarts your appetite and digestion? This is in turn will then allow you to consume real food and get your proteins, carbs, and fat in so your body can start regenerating itself. You are likely very malnourished and whatever protocol you did to your detriment depleted you of multiple things, making it impossible to produce much gastric acid and other digestive secretions. And your ability to retain salt is almost nonexistent as well because of the malnourishment. You probably can not synthesize enough salt retaining hormones such as aldosterone.

I know it may seem like a simple answer but it may be the key that allows you to at least get your foot in the door by increasing digestive secretions.

 

[deliciousfruit]

Have you ever taken a multivitamin to see if this restarts your appetite and digestion? This is in turn will then allow you to consume real food and get your proteins, carbs, and fat in so your body can start regenerating itself. You are likely very malnourished and whatever protocol you did to your detriment depleted you of multiple things, making it impossible to produce much gastric acid and other digestive secretions. And you ability to retain salt is almost nonexistent as well because of the malnourishment. You probably can not synthesize enough salt retaining hormones such as aldosterone.

I know it may seem like a simple answer but it may be the key that allows you to at least get your foot in the door by increasing digestive secretions.

I haven't tried a multivitamin for years, but I would have to find one without B12, B6, zinc, B3, selenium, and E, etc because I can't tolerate those at all. I am so sensitive it's ridiculous. For example, I visited a homeopath (I am desperate) a week ago who gave me some "immune-boosting" remedies, (which were just tiny sugar pellets), and I became bedridden for about 5 days. In terms of malnutrition, potatoes actually seem to cover a good amount of what I need, especially since I am able to eat a lot of them daily. They lack B2 and B9 which I take (just a sprinkle of each, trying to keep things in balance), fat soluble vitamins which I get from grass-fed butter, selenium, iodine, zinc, calcium, and iron. Selenium and iodine I can't tolerate from supplements, but I doubt a deficiency of those would cause such severe symptoms. Same with calcium, and obviously zinc never helped my situation. That gets me thinking about iron, which the little it contains is probably not very bio-available. Before all this happened, I was living off dairy, orange juice, cheese, mushrooms, etc, there were never any good sources of iron in my diet. I eventually started to eat red meat when I started getting worse, but thinking I was so smart I would take some egg shell calcium every-time to block the iron absorption. 7-8 months now since I even ate red meat, if I wasn't iron-deficient before I definitely am now. Restless legs, paleness, fatigue, dry mouth, vertical ridges on nails, no appetite, shortness of breath, etc. Question is could an iron deficiency cause all the other symptoms I'm experiencing... I ordered a heme-iron supplement called Proferrin which I've seen you recommend before, unfortunately it contains magnesium stearate and silica which both seem to make me sick, but if I'm able to absorb the iron I might just have to push on through with this one...

 

[redsun]

I haven't tried a multivitamin for years, but I would have to find one without B12, B6, zinc, B3, selenium, and E, etc because I can't tolerate those at all. I am so sensitive it's ridiculous. For example, I visited a homeopath (I am desperate) a week ago who gave me some "immune-boosting" remedies, (which were just tiny sugar pellets), and I became bedridden for about 5 days. In terms of malnutrition, potatoes actually seem to cover a good amount of what I need, especially since I am able to eat a lot of them daily. They lack B2 and B9 which I take (just a sprinkle of each, trying to keep things in balance), fat soluble vitamins which I get from grass-fed butter, selenium, iodine, zinc, calcium, and iron. Selenium and iodine I can't tolerate from supplements, but I doubt a deficiency of those would cause such severe symptoms. Same with calcium, and obviously zinc never helped my situation. That gets me thinking about iron, which the little it contains is probably not very bio-available. Before all this happened, I was living off dairy, orange juice, cheese, mushrooms, etc, there were never any good sources of iron in my diet. I eventually started to eat red meat when I started getting worse, but thinking I was so smart I would take some egg shell calcium every-time to block the iron absorption. 7-8 months now since I even ate red meat, if I wasn't iron-deficient before I definitely am now. Restless legs, paleness, fatigue, dry mouth, vertical ridges on nails, no appetite, shortness of breath, etc. Question is could an iron deficiency cause all the other symptoms I'm experiencing... I ordered a heme-iron supplement called Proferrin which I've seen you recommend before, unfortunately it contains magnesium stearate and silica which both seem to make me sick, but if I'm able to absorb the iron I might just have to push on through with this one...

If your iron deficiency is really bad, you will be very anemic and basically dead. Anemia often causes poor appetite and this will negatively affect digestion and everything really if iron deficiency is severe enough. Your thyroid and other hormones that help increase digestive secretions will all be low. It may be a good idea to get blood tests to confirm this. You definitely have the typical symptoms associated with iron deficiency and anemia.

Very high zinc intake as well as manganese (which you said you also supplemented) can cause iron deficiency. If we couple this with higher calcium intake and a diet which is already quite low in iron, iron deficiency is much more likely.

 

[deliciousfruit]

If your iron deficiency is really bad, you will be very anemic and basically dead. Anemia often causes poor appetite and this will negatively affect digestion and everything really if iron deficiency is severe enough. It may be a good idea to get blood tests to confirm this. You definitely have the typical symptoms associated with iron deficiency and anemia.

Very high zinc intake as well as manganese (which you said you also supplemented) can cause iron deficiency. If we couple this with higher calcium intake and a diet which is already quite low in iron, iron deficiency is much more likely.

I have had plenty of blood tests over the past half year, and not once did any signs of iron deficiency or anaemia show up. In fact my ferritin rose from the 30-50 it had been sitting at for years to 130. So if blood tests are conclusive I guess I'm not iron deficient...

 

[redsun]

I have had plenty of blood tests over the past half year, and not once did any signs of iron deficiency or anaemia show up. In fact my ferritin rose from the 30-50 it had been sitting at for years to 130. So if blood tests are conclusive I guess I'm not iron deficient...

How to interpret your iron panel blood test for optimal energy and health » TESTONATION

Iron, together with thyroid, is probably one of the things most improperly tested for. With thyroid, doctors only measure TSH, which gives you almost no clue of actual thyroid function. Similarly with iron, doctors mainly test ferritin and then prescribe iron supplementation or phlebotomy based...

men-elite.com

Ferritin alone is not really a good marker of iron status. It can be high if you have inflammation and you can still be anemic. If you still have those symptoms that are directly correlated to anemia and iron deficiency than likely if you did the proper blood tests it should show.

 

[youngsinatra]

Sorry to hear that the copper did not work well for you. @deliciousfruit

If you tolerate potatoes, then that’s good because they are quite dense in minerals.

Do you tolerate mushrooms and ground beef? Both also have a good mineral and vitamin composition. (copper, iron, zinc, selenium, potassium, B vitamins)

 

[youngsinatra]

No. I only felt awful effects from the copper bisglycinate. I don't know what to do. I'm just getting worse and worse.

What symptoms did you get from the supplement? Did you take it on an empty stomach?
I know that nausea is a frequent symptom of supplemental copper.

Have you tried taking it after a meal?

 

[deliciousfruit]

What symptoms did you get from the supplement? Did you take it on an empty stomach?
I know that nausea is a frequent symptom of supplemental copper.

Have you tried taking it after a meal?

I took it with dinner on a full stomach. I got severe paranoia and racing thoughts, restless legs, shortness of breath, twitching, and dizziness. It was definitely the copper too because I eat/take the same thing everyday.

 

[deliciousfruit]

Sorry to hear that the copper did not work well for you. @deliciousfruit

If you tolerate potatoes, then that’s good because they are quite dense in minerals.

Do you tolerate mushrooms and ground beef? Both also have a good mineral and vitamin composition. (copper, iron, zinc, selenium, potassium, B vitamins)

Last time I tried mushrooms I got similar symptoms that I got from the copper supplement, and unfortunately I can't digest any sort of animal protein. ?

 

[deliciousfruit]

How to interpret your iron panel blood test for optimal energy and health » TESTONATION

Iron, together with thyroid, is probably one of the things most improperly tested for. With thyroid, doctors only measure TSH, which gives you almost no clue of actual thyroid function. Similarly with iron, doctors mainly test ferritin and then prescribe iron supplementation or phlebotomy based...

men-elite.com

Ferritin alone is not really a good marker of iron status. It can be high if you have inflammation and you can still be anemic. If you still have those symptoms that are directly correlated to anemia and iron deficiency than likely if you did the proper blood tests it should show.

All my iron markers were above the range, not just ferritin. I guess the best way to find out though is to just try this supplement. Its probably not as risky as taking non-heme iron anyway

 

[youngsinatra]

I took it with dinner on a full stomach. I got severe paranoia and racing thoughts, restless legs, shortness of breath, twitching, and dizziness. It was definitely the copper too because I eat/take the same thing everyday.

Oh I’m so sorry to hear that!
I know those effects very well, when I overdid copper from food sources.

I did a copper detoxification process myself about 8 months ago, where I took a lot of supplemental zinc and molybdenum for on-going months.

It was great for getting rid of a bad paranoid/psychotic episode, but after 4-5 months I was starting having symptoms of copper deficiency.
Lately I get these symptoms, even tho I did not take any of those chelating supplements for 2 months by simply eating a lot of beef (40-50mg) with moderate copper intake (2-4mg): Bradycardia, hypothermia, gait andbalance problems, fatigue, libido issues, low adrenaline (can‘t get a adrenergic response from stimulants) and low dopamine.

If I switch to chicken breast + more dietary copper for 3-4 days, these symptoms improve.

I am going to try copperbisglycinate tomorrow as a n=1 experiment.

 

[artist]

I've screwed up my copper status with molybdenum before and I know how scary that can feel. Things that are important to know about copper:

- It's absorbed in the stomach, and taking it with an acidic component like vinegar or lemon juice increases its absorption greatly

- Small doses throughout the day are far better than one big dose. You're gonna be maxing out somewhere around .7 mg per dosage whether you take 1mg or 5mg at once because the percentage you can absorb shrinks exponentially as you take bigger dosages

- (controversial/not Peaty) estrogen increases copper utilization and if your estrogen is crashed you will not be able to recover your copper status without correcting this too. It's actually a bit difficult to separate low estrogen and low copper--moly and zinc lower both, and they have overlapping symptoms. This is a complex issue as not all estrogen is the same, but I would at a minimum stay away from anything that has strong aromatase inhibiting properties. For instance I would not take big doses of retinol, vitamin E or anything else like that. If you want to potentially increase your estrogen levels (and androgens) in a safe and moderate way that lets your body determine things, you could try taking boron (I think this is why boron and copper are felt to synergize). If you're feeling really bold you could try OTC estriol cream, you'll know within a day if that is your problem. (I know, I'll show myself out now...)

- if you're reacting that badly to copper supplements I would actually consider that your issue is not copper. Although if you have MCAS type symptoms and can't tolerate supplements in general, it's hard to say if it's the fillers? I think the iron is a good lead. If you mostly feel completely devoid of energy and emotions, consider low estrogen, especially if you have followed a lot of Peat advice for a long time. I agree w Ray that the general principle of estrogen being a burden is correct, but people on this forum may be among the few who should actually consider the possibility they've gone too far the other direction (at least when aggressive anti-E supps are involved). The optimal amount of estrogen is NOT zero even for men

 

[TeslaFan]

Andy Cutler, 50mg zinc, 500mcg molybdenum, 2g ascorbic acid per meal (2 meals daily) and 4mg manganese away from food. I'm a ******* idiot. Yes my latest blood test showed copper below the range and zinc above the range

Cutler's protocol is for mercury, and assumes you are taking DMPS or DMSA, mercaptans which deplete zinc -- hence extra zinc in the protocol. But, if one is not taking these drugs, that will cause problems.
Also, Copper cannot work properly in people with excess mercury, as mercury displaces it by affinity that is orders of magnitude stronger.

 

[ursidae]

I haven't tried a multivitamin for years, but I would have to find one without B12, B6, zinc, B3, selenium, and E, etc because I can't tolerate those at all. I am so sensitive it's ridiculous. For example, I visited a homeopath (I am desperate) a week ago who gave me some "immune-boosting" remedies, (which were just tiny sugar pellets), and I became bedridden for about 5 days. In terms of malnutrition, potatoes actually seem to cover a good amount of what I need, especially since I am able to eat a lot of them daily. They lack B2 and B9 which I take (just a sprinkle of each, trying to keep things in balance), fat soluble vitamins which I get from grass-fed butter, selenium, iodine, zinc, calcium, and iron. Selenium and iodine I can't tolerate from supplements, but I doubt a deficiency of those would cause such severe symptoms. Same with calcium, and obviously zinc never helped my situation. That gets me thinking about iron, which the little it contains is probably not very bio-available. Before all this happened, I was living off dairy, orange juice, cheese, mushrooms, etc, there were never any good sources of iron in my diet. I eventually started to eat red meat when I started getting worse, but thinking I was so smart I would take some egg shell calcium every-time to block the iron absorption. 7-8 months now since I even ate red meat, if I wasn't iron-deficient before I definitely am now. Restless legs, paleness, fatigue, dry mouth, vertical ridges on nails, no appetite, shortness of breath, etc. Question is could an iron deficiency cause all the other symptoms I'm experiencing... I ordered a heme-iron supplement called Proferrin which I've seen you recommend before, unfortunately it contains magnesium stearate and silica which both seem to make me sick, but if I'm able to absorb the iron I might just have to push on through with this one...

Are you able to tolerate coconut water?

 

[aniciete]

Sorry to hear that the copper did not work well for you. @deliciousfruit

If you tolerate potatoes, then that’s good because they are quite dense in minerals.

Do you tolerate mushrooms and ground beef? Both also have a good mineral and vitamin composition. (copper, iron, zinc, selenium, potassium, B vitamins)

How many mushrooms do you consume a day? I saw your post about the mushrooms crashing estrogen and I was wondering if you still eat them daily.

 

[aniciete]

You may have digestive issues but that does not mean you cannot digest meat. You just need to make the beef liver and eat small amounts say 2 oz at a time with some rice. The other issue is lowering of copper status causes considerable calcium losses and will also cause calcium deficiency.

So when copper is being repleted, bioavailable calcium from dairy also has to be consumed as copper is needed to fix calcium into bones. This is why you feel even worse because likely you made yourself calcium deficient as well. As long as your body has salt and water it should be able to digest simple things like liver and rice. But if you are not getting much sodium in your diet (I mean you arent eating much it seems) you can make any stomach acid so you need to get some salt in your body. Yogurts and other forms of dairy should be included soon after getting more liver, but the first step is liver.

How often should 2oz of liver be consumed to replete copper levels? Once a week or should it be more like a daily thing? I’ve tried other foods like chocolate and potatoes to raise copper levels without eating liver due to the vitamin a content but they didn’t help. So I’m thinking I should just eat liver because of its bioavailability.

 

[redsun]

How often should 2oz of liver be consumed to replete copper levels? Once a week or should it be more like a daily thing? I’ve tried other foods like chocolate and potatoes to raise copper levels without eating liver due to the vitamin a content but they didn’t help. So I’m thinking I should just eat liver because of its bioavailability.

Its probably best to just supplement copper glycinate. This avoids the issue of possibly not absorbing enough from regular foods and the high preformed vitamin A content of liver which causes its own problems.

 

[aniciete]

Its probably best to just supplement copper glycinate. This avoids the issue of possibly not absorbing enough from regular foods and the high preformed vitamin A content of liver which causes its own problems.

Thanks. Do you know how long and how much to take? I’ve seen most copper supps sold are 2mg capsules.

 

[redsun]

Thanks. Do you know how long and how much to take? I’ve seen most copper supps sold are 2mg capsules.

Test ceruloplasmin to see if you need it. If it shows low and you know this is attributed to excess zinc intake and supplementation, then take 4mg of copper daily for at least a month and test again. Copper absorption rate is around 40%.