Zinc-Induced Copper Deficiency

[ASR]

Thanks. Do you know how long and how much to take? I’ve seen most copper supps sold are 2mg capsules.

 

[TheCodez]

I highly suggest you eat beef liver. It has tons of it. It can be resolved quickly that way. Otherwise, you need to consume plant foods high in copper which may work but the copper in plants are not as absorbable as liver.

Beef liver if fried in olive oil is very doable. You just need to cook it very slowly. Most of the bad taste of liver is from oxidizing chemicals and compounds in the liver. If the liver is browning thats how you know its cooking too fast. If it is cooked thoroughly but very slowly the taste is very tolerable. This was my initial problem with liver. Once I learned how to cook it properly I was all set.

How much beef liver did you eat or do you recommend? I also am dealing with a severe copper deficiency. Supplementing made my years of tendonitis go away practically over night, but I have lingering memory issues that are quite terrifying honestly. The issues become much worse if I have ANY fructose so I feel pretty confident this also is copper related. I've been eating 2 ounce of raw beef liver per day for months with only very marginal improvement that I managed to completely reverse to something akin to Alzheimer's with a few pieces of watermelon. I'm afraid this will end my career if I don't get it figured out. I'd be happy to eat a pound of raw liver per day if it would fix this and not cause vitamin A toxicity or something.

Please don't suggest seeing a doctor, as I've seen 26 including 3 neurologists, 1 of which is a memory specialist. ZERO help from the mostly well meaning docs.

 

[redsun]

How much beef liver did you eat or do you recommend? I also am dealing with a severe copper deficiency. Supplementing made my years of tendonitis go away practically over night, but I have lingering memory issues that are quite terrifying honestly. The issues become much worse if I have ANY fructose so I feel pretty confident this also is copper related. I've been eating 2 ounce of raw beef liver per day for months with only very marginal improvement that I managed to completely reverse to something akin to Alzheimer's with a few pieces of watermelon. I'm afraid this will end my career if I don't get it figured out. I'd be happy to eat a pound of raw liver per day if it would fix this and not cause vitamin A toxicity or something.

Please don't suggest seeing a doctor, as I've seen 26 including 3 neurologists, 1 of which is a memory specialist. ZERO help from the mostly well meaning docs.

If you already had plenty of beef liver, which it looks like you have, you dont have copper deficiency anymore. The problem with liver is it is very very high in vitamin A. Retinol especially in excess (which is very easy to do with liver, especially daily liver) will dramatically reduce glutamate levels in the synapse because it upregulates a major transporter that takes glutamate out of the synapse. This leads to low glutamate activity which absolutely decimates cognition. You need to stop liver so your glutamate levels can normalize from the excess vitamin A.

Copper via norepinephrine is helpful for adhd and calms the mind while also speeding up processing. But if glutamate and acetylcholine is too low you will basically become an alzheimers patient and will be cognitively slow. Glutamate is very vital for short term memory while acetylcholine is vital for long term memory. You didnt specify which is your problem but I am assuming both for simplicity.

Do you get a lot of choline from eggs and meat? This will also raise acetylcholine and increase glutamate activity as Ach increases glutamate through certain receptors. I would aim for at least 800mg of choline a day in your case. A few eggs, and plenty of meat is the simplest way to choline. I would also suggest supplementing zinc 15-20mg a day for perhaps two weeks at most which will increase the activity of glutamate, acetylcholine, dopamine, and help speed up your cognition through zinc's various effects in the nervous system such as GABA-A antagonism, 5-HT1A antagonism, DRI properties, etc. You will not be at risk of copper deficiency again at those dose.

Another thing you can also include is niacinamide, which has very effective nootropic effects. You can try 500mg a day but do not do this until you stop liver for a few weeks and get way more choline in your diet. You may not even need the niacinamide, you should cognitively start to slowly improve within a few days of no liver but its important to follow the choline recommendation and other get plenty of protein and get your other micro nutrients from various foods.

 

[TheCodez]

If you already had plenty of beef liver, which it looks like you have, you dont have copper deficiency anymore. The problem with liver is it is very very high in vitamin A. Retinol especially in excess (which is very easy to do with liver, especially daily liver) will dramatically reduce glutamate levels in the synapse because it upregulates a major transporter that takes glutamate out of the synapse. This leads to low glutamate activity which absolutely decimates cognition. You need to stop liver so your glutamate levels can normalize from the excess vitamin A.

Copper via norepinephrine is helpful for adhd and calms the mind while also speeding up processing. But if glutamate and acetylcholine is too low you will basically become an alzheimers patient and will be cognitively slow. Glutamate is very vital for short term memory while acetylcholine is vital for long term memory. You didnt specify which is your problem but I am assuming both for simplicity.

Do you get a lot of choline from eggs and meat? This will also raise acetylcholine and increase glutamate activity as Ach increases glutamate through certain receptors. I would aim for at least 800mg of choline a day in your case. A few eggs, and plenty of meat is the simplest way to choline. I would also suggest supplementing zinc 15-20mg a day for perhaps two weeks at most which will increase the activity of glutamate, acetylcholine, dopamine, and help speed up your cognition through zinc's various effects in the nervous system such as GABA-A antagonism, 5-HT1A antagonism, DRI properties, etc. You will not be at risk of copper deficiency again at those dose.

Another thing you can also include is niacinamide, which has very effective nootropic effects. You can try 500mg a day but do not do this until you stop liver for a few weeks and get way more choline in your diet. You may not even need the niacinamide, you should cognitively start to slowly improve within a few days of no liver but its important to follow the choline recommendation and other get plenty of protein and get your other micro nutrients from various foods.

Thanks for your response. I've been eating 3 raw pastured egg yolks per day for many months. I've recently quit though because the egg yolks cause joint pain, back pain and aggravate a prostate related urinary issue. It does seem that eggs improve the memory issues a little, but they are definitely a no-go for me unless those issues can be addressed. I also eat 1/2 pound of ground beef every-single-day.
The biggest reason that I feel certain this is copper related is that ANY fructose GREATLY worsens my memory within a couple days and as we all know fructose is really good at depleting copper.
I've been splitting 800mg of niacinamide across the day for 6 weeks now with zero memory improvement.

 

[redsun]

Thanks for your response. I've been eating 3 raw pastured egg yolks per day for many months. I've recently quit though because the egg yolks cause joint pain, back pain and aggravate a prostate related urinary issue. It does seem that eggs improve the memory issues a little, but they are definitely a no-go for me unless those issues can be addressed. I also eat 1/2 pound of ground beef every-single-day.
The biggest reason that I feel certain this is copper related is that ANY fructose GREATLY worsens my memory within a couple days and as we all know fructose is really good at depleting copper.
I've been splitting 800mg of niacinamide across the day for 6 weeks now with zero memory improvement.

This is good then you have a decent base but the excess retinol is preventing proper cognition. You need to drop the liver and wait it out because glutamate activity is probably way too low.

I know you are certain it must be copper deficiency. But keep in mind, the human body only has 100mg of copper in it. With all the liver you have eaten you are well past sufficiency at this point. I am confident your issue is the excess vitamin A, not copper.

 

[TheCodez]

This is good then you have a decent base but the excess retinol is preventing proper cognition. You need to drop the liver and wait it out because glutamate activity is probably way too low.

I know you are certain it must be copper deficiency. But keep in mind, the human body only has 100mg of copper in it. With all the liver you have eaten you are well past sufficiency at this point. I am confident your issue is the excess vitamin A, not copper.

I've had this issue on and off and to varying extents for 6 years. It was an issue long before I started using liver or had any significant animal based vitamin A intake. Everyone around me would agree that my cognitive capabilities are razor sharp. I can solve novel problems as well or possibly even better than ever, but 2 to 5 days later I frequently can't remember a given even happened. I'm not even 50 years old.

 

[redsun]

I've had this issue for 6 years. Long before I started using liver or had any significant animal based vitamin A intake. Everyone around me would agree that my cognition is razor sharp. I can solve novel problems as well or possibly even better than ever, but 2 days later I can't remember it even happened. I'm not even 50.

That's alright. You still need to drop it as the excess retinol is not helping I assure you. Because you also currently avoid a major choline source (eggs), I would keep the niacinamide down to 100mg because you do not want to deplete methyl donors heavily and not be replacing it as much as you should. Niacinamide is quite synergistic with choline. If you cant do eggs, then I suggest you try and see if choline supplementation also give negative reactions. It probably wont some people do react badly to eggs due to allergies.

Acetylcholine is very involved in long term memory consolidation. This is why I stress the choline. For whatever reason Ach activity seems to be dysfunctional. If it wasnt your long term memory would not be so bad. Its impossible to know the origin of your issues since this started 6 years ago and you say your memory is bad so its probably pointless to ask what happened six years ago, but I do recommend certain things based on what is known about long term memory.

You can also look into racetams. They work through acetylcholine and glutamate to enhance cognition and memory. They need to be taken with a choline supplement. Oxiracetam may be helpful for you but you should research the popular racetams yourself and decide what you want to try.

 

[TheCodez]

That's alright. You still need to drop it as the excess retinol is not helping I assure you. Because you also currently avoid a major choline source (eggs), I would keep the niacinamide down to 100mg because you do not want to deplete methyl donors heavily and not be replacing it as much as you should. Niacinamide is quite synergistic with choline. If you cant do eggs, then I suggest you try and see if choline supplementation also give negative reactions. It probably wont some people do react badly to eggs due to allergies.

Acetylcholine is very involved in long term memory consolidation. This is why I stress the choline. For whatever reason Ach activity seems to be dysfunctional as if it wasnt your long term memory would not be so bad. Its impossible to know the origin of your issues since this stsrted 6 years ago and you say your memory is bad so its probably pointless to ask what happened six years ago, but I do recommend certain things based on what is known about long term memory.

You can also look into racetams. They work through acetylcholine and glutamate to enhance cognition and memory. They need to be taken with a choline supplement. Oxiracetam may be helpful for you but you should research the popular racetams yourself and decide what you want to try.

Thanks so much for the additional information. I find the options around choline supplementation confusing. Is there a particular supplement that you'd recommend?

 

[redsun]

Thanks so much for the additional information. I find the options around choline supplementation confusing. Is there a particular supplement that you'd recommend?

Alpha-GPC is better at crossing the blood brain barrier, so in your case it may be more helpful to use that.

 

[TheCodez]

Alpha-GPC is better at crossing the blood brain barrier, so in your case it may be more helpful to use that.

Sorry to keep asking questions, but do you have a recommendation on alpha gpc dosage? I see things that indicate that 1200mg spread across a day may be used in cases of cognitive decline, but it seems Haidut and Peat think that may be dangerous.

 

[redsun]

Sorry to keep asking questions, but do you have a recommendation on alpha gpc dosage? I see things that indicate that 1200mg spread across a day may be used in cases of cognitive decline, but it seems Haidut and Peat think that may be dangerous.

1200mg is good. No reason to be afraid of choline supplement.