Your Thoughts Around Menstruating Into Old Age

Heidi

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I just read Iodine, Supplement Reactions, Hormones And More - KMUD 16 where Ray Peat talks about this topic. Here is the relevant part of the interview:
HD2: And also Dr Peat, how would you compare oestrogen levels with menopausal women and men?

RP: With aging, a man’s oestrogen pretty steadily increases but if he has a heart attack it goes up sharply or if he has a traumatic injury it goes up during the recovery time - but generally there’s a trend upward in men and in women when the ovaries stop cycling and up until about the age of 38–40 there is an actual steady increase in the oestrogen and when the ovaries stop cycling, they stop suddenly producing progesterone but they continue producing a considerable amount of oestrogen until the body can adjust it downward. So there are a few years in the 40s or early 50s usually, when oestrogen is extremely excessive relative to the anti-oestrogen effect of progesterone. But then again after the ovaries have pretty much stopped functioning, the rest of the body, as the progesterone fails, all the other tissues begin, similarly it happens in men, all of a woman’s tissues tend to start increasing their production of oestrogen so that after menopause, the fatter a woman is, the more oestrogen she’s producing because the fat tissue is a good source of it. But any tissue after menopause to the degree that it’s stressed, will begin producing oestrogen.

HD2: So is that about the same level between men and women, after the menopausal period?

RP: Yeah, I think woman tend to be fatter in old age and so they are more likely to have a higher level of oestrogen. But just measuring the blood oestrogen gives a misleading impression because when progesterone is deficient, the oestrogen receptor as well as the aromatase enzyme that makes oestrogen, the receptors binded in cells and there’s no progesterone to destroy the oestrogen receptor so it just stays in the cell and some of the enzymes that are no longer inactivated by progesterone, other enzymes capture circulating oestrogen that should have been excreted, cause it to be deposited in cells still other enzymes shift any oestrogen away from the oestrone form to the oestriol form which is the most active, intense oestrogen. So everything that happens when progesterone is deficient tends to load up various cells all through the body with more and more oestrogenic stimulation, even though, it isn’t being released to be measured in the blood.

HD2: Right, so the blood test could appear that it’s fine but if you have a large amount of fat cells it could be stored in that and other tissues. And what about weight loss for woman who are in the menopause state, to lose that weight do they then poison themselves with that oestrogen as it comes out of the cells?

RP: Just temporarily, but it’s better to get rid of it than have it local because inside the cells because it produces things such as breast cancer, lung cancer, uterine cancer, ovarian cancer, all of the tissues that no longer have enough progesterone are subject to cancer infestation.

HD2: So what about the women that continue to menstruate, like I heard from this lady the other day, that she had this friend who was 70 and was still menstruating?

RP: I talked to a gynaecologist, who was giving his wife progesterone and she was still menstruating at 60. And if you happened to have a very good system for producing progesterone there’s no reason why it should stop at 55.

HD2: So there’s no reason to stop at 55 then, right?

RP: No.

HD2: So basically do you think it would be beneficial that woman to continue to menstruate until the day they die?

RP: I think so.

HD2: Like the flamingos.

RP: Yeah the flamingos have no life limitation according to ordinary mortality curves cause they seem to only die by accidents.

HD2: Or starvation.

HD1: Dr Peat, I wanted to pick up on the point that you mentioned during your last discourse there. I’ve not heard that before: Progesterone destroys the oestrogen receptor? Does anything similarly happen with oestrogen doing the same thing to progesterone receptors or is it just that way around?

RP: Well, oestrogen activates its own receptor in most tissues and it will activate inflammatory things, which tend to turn off the progesterone receptor, if you have excess. Generally, the normal function would be for progesterone to rise as soon as the oestrogen has had its surge and then knock it out. The oestrogen is fine if it is active only for 12-24hrs every month.

HD2: It does its job and then it’s finished.

HD1: But like you said the tissues will carry on producing oestrogen in tissues especially in
obese individuals and menopausal or even postmenopausal women.

HD1: OK, so just another call for all the ladies out there that there really is nothing, and I know it is a personal thing, but nothing wrong with continuing your menstrual cycle as long as you possibly can Progesterone is your friend, oestrogen is your enemy and the only thing really that oestrogen is any good for is the implantation and so we have our first caller, so let’s get this first caller.
I have mostly struggled with my periods, and have been jealous of most of my friends having an earlier menopause. I'll probably be having a late one as I'm 54 and my body has no signs of slowing down. But now that my cramps have gotten better and perhaps my energy levels will improve, so maybe menstruating a number of years longer might not be so bad. I'm starting to come to peace with that. But intentionally taking hormones to extend it even longer, seems like a huge leap for me. Would you want to do that? Is anyone already doing that? Would it really be worth it? Or do you feel like you can just supplement with progesterone and obtain a good hormone balance without continuing to menstruate?
 

tara

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I'm nearly your age, nearly the age when my mother did menopause.
I have had extremely severe dysmenorrhea in the past, but not in recent years.
The migraines that mess with my life probably have a hormonal component related to the menstrual cycle.
I've heard from a dr that migraines can either improve or worsen at menopause (substantial proportions either way), so I'm not holding my breath thinking that will solve my problems.
I've taken progest-e nearly every day for more than 2 years now.
My menstruation is a bit lighter than it used to be, and a little irregular. I figure either or both those could be related to either approaching menopause or to my taking progest-e and/or to my occasional lapses with regular dosing of progest-e.
I will happily keep taking progest-e or similar as long as I think it is helpful for my overall health, whether or not it delays menopause. I figure menopause will signal a reduction in my capacity to recover from past damage. I want as much recovery as possible before that happens.
 
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I have a girlfriend who has really struggled with hormone issues. She took birth control pills for many years and when she finally wanted to get pregnant it took a long time. Eventually she did get pregnant several times, but could NOT carry her babies to full term. Many miscarriages later her doctor finally gave her progesterone and she became a mother at age 41.

She will be 50 next month and her menstrual cycle has been irregular for close to two years. She has terrible mood swings, hot flashes, osteopenia etc. I gave her some Progest-E and she felt much better, but began cycling regularly again which I had warned her may happen.

She has since made the decision to quit taking the progesterone as she feels that using hormones to stop a "natural process" wasn't healthy. That was her choice and I guess I understand why she wouldn't want the hassle of menstruation, it's a drag. However her hair and skin have become very thin.

I can't understand why taking birth control was seen as "no big deal", yet the Progest-E is viewed somehow as "unnatural":?:

I'll be 50 this year and have not experienced irregular periods yet, but I do notice that Progest-E really helps balance out my tendency to be estrogen dominant. So far, my own decision is to keep using progesterone, mostly because I have read that it's highly protective against many different stressors and I need all the help I can get.:thumbup:
 

tara

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So far, my own decision is to keep using progesterone, mostly because I have read that it's highly protective against many different stressors and I need all the help I can get.:thumbup:
Nicely put.
 

SQu

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I'm at that stage too, missed a few but still mostly cycling and with a lot of management, I can keep the difficult symptoms like longer heavier flow plus PMS x 10, at bay. I want this not because I want to keep cycling but because I want to feel better. It took me ages to realize that feeling bad all month was PMS stretching to cover me full time like Peat said somewhere. So I plan to continue with that godsend progesterone as long as it helps me feel better, and if trouble free periods are part of the package, I'll accept that. I actually think that fixing one big thing about your health such as this, might get you nearly there on everything.
 

Blossom

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But intentionally taking hormones to extend it even longer, seems like a huge leap for me. Would you want to do that? Is anyone already doing that? Would it really be worth it? Or do you feel like you can just supplement with progesterone and obtain a good hormone balance without continuing to menstruate?
I'm sort of doing that now and I think it's definitely been worth it. I was diagnosed with early menopause (diagnosed by blood work in 2011) but reversed that (confirmed by labs last year) with Progest-e and other lifestyle changes. I cycle but don't menstruate because my uterus was removed 10 years ago. I have one ovary left and I plan on supporting it indefinitely. I could possibly revert back to menopause by stopping the progesterone but I tried stopping progesterone once last year and my quality of life is vastly improved by just using a moderate amount of the hormone.

I suppose it might be a bit easier to deal with cycling when you don't have to deal with the period but I still get the other symptoms, although they are brief and mild, during ovulation and what would be my period and it continues to be very much worth it to me. I had some atrophy too that has reversed that I don't wish to experience again anytime soon. I think it is a very personal choice and there is certainly nothing wrong with a woman choosing a natural menopause over using hormones. There are some things about menopause that can be unpleasant that are often seen as unavoidable in conventional medicine unless a woman chooses estrogen but from my experience Progest-e (and some other bioidentical progesterone brands) has been far superior to estrogen treatment and apparently reversed the situation-along with good nutrition of course. It took a few years but eventually I started missing the feed back that having a period provides so from my perspective all of you ladies that still have periods are very fortunate!
 
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Heidi

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Thank you, all of you for sharing your experiences. I've been feeling really weary of bleeding and needed inspiration to see it in more positive light. I think that I use to have very high levels of progesterone. My cycle use to be very long. I would track when I ovulated, and the second half of my cycle would typically last much longer than 2 weeks, like my ovaries were cranking out progesterone. Gradually over the last 5 years my cycle has shortened to a normal average of 28 days. It feels like my body is now putting out a normal amount of progesterone.

When I was young I was diagnosed with polycystic ovaries. I had a large ovarian cyst removed and my ovaries were covered with cysts. But I never had the classic PCOS symptoms of weight gain and excess male hormones. But often my estrogen levels wouldn't peak enough to release an egg. So when I was young, I would often skip a month or two. But ever since I met my husband over 20 years ago, I have been very regular. My relationship with him (that includes a good sexual connection), completely regulated my hormones. I think that they've done studies around stuff like that (such as female hormones responding to male body sweat). Anyhow, he has been good hormonal medicine for me.

I've been wondering how long supplementing with progesterone could keep a woman menstruating. At some point, wouldn't one also need to take a brief dose of estrogen, to facilitate ovulation? Also, isn't it dependent on the amount of progesterone? I thought that a lot of women would supplement a small amount to help balance estrogen levels, but not necessarily enough to keep menstruating.

I think that Chinese medicine views menstruation as depleting a women's energy, similar to ejaculation depleting energy for men. Some Taoist practitioners do practices so that they won't menstruate.

I confess that I've spent a lot of my life complaining about my period. Seeing it as a blessing would be a welcome change for me. At this point, I can't even fathom menopause.
 
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I think that Chinese medicine views menstruation as depleting a women's energy, similar to ejaculation depleting energy for men. Some Taoist practitioners do practices so that they won't menstruate.

I've chosen to view menstruation as a monthly cleansing/renewal which I associate with youthfulness, as opposed to depletion.... Or I could merely be deluding myself:oops:
 

Peata

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I would prefer to keep menstruating = staying juicy (youthful). Even though I've had some bad experiences with menstruation ever since I started at 12-1/2 years old. Lots of cramps, irregular periods but heavy bleeding when it did come, lots of acne, then onto the pill.... then off the pill in my 30s but my periods did not come regularly. I'd have one every 3 months or so and it would be very light. Somehow I started going regular again by late 30s. But pms symptoms started lingering much longer, to where I only got a break from emotional/skin/digestion/etc problems for maybe a week out of the month. But things are going better now.

Anyway, what about pregnenolone as an option instead of taking progesterone? I thought pregnenolone converts to progesterone first.
 

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