You Know You've Gone Peat Mad When

[visionofstrength]

Peat's said he's even willing to accept mild respiratory acidosis (pH < 7.35) if it means you can get your pCO2 up.

Where is this from?

This from Protective CO2 and aging:

Ordinarily, carbon dioxide and bicarbonate are thought of only in relation to the regulation of pH, and only in a very general way. Because of the importance of keeping the pH of the blood within a narrow range, carbon dioxide is commonly thought of as a toxin, because an excess can cause unconsciousness and acidosis. But increasing carbon dioxide doesn't necessarily cause acidosis, and acidosis caused by carbon dioxide isn't as harmful as lactic acidosis.

He's also quoted as saying this, I think in an interview [or if he did say this, it could be from one of his books or newsletters not published on the web, i.e., this quote is not on raypeat.com]:

I think of high altitude as analogous to the protected gestational state. (Both progesterone and carbon dioxide are increased in people adapted to high altitude.) Respiratory acidosis, meaning the retention of carbon dioxide, is very protective, and is an outstanding feature of life in the uterus. Even at the time that an embryo is implanting in the uterus, adequate carbon dioxide is crucial. Many of the mysteries of embryology and developmental biology have been explained by the presence of a high level of carbon dioxide during gestation. For example, an injury to the fetus heals without scarring, that is, with complete regeneration instead of the formation of a sort of collagenous plug. Over the last fifty years, several people have discovered that simply enclosing a wound (for example an amputated finger tip) in an air-tight compartment allows remarkably complete regeneration, even in adults, who supposedly have lost the power of regeneration. (Exposure of tissues to air causes them to lose carbon dioxide.)

I seem to remember the quote might be from this interview, but it's a great interview for many reasons:
[BBvideo 560,340:1wf1q2se]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZkGxrntmTE[/BBvideo]

 

[tara]

Eventually getting back to this ... :)

I think there are probably many conditions and people for whom inhalation CO2 therapy can be safely and beneficially used, including some home situations. However, constantly stating that it is extremely safe doesn't encourage thoughtfulness about how to keep it safe.

I haven't posted instructions on how to do this online, and instead encourage people to PM me if they want links, or have questions.

I would suggest if asked that the key to safety is to have a regulator with precise needle-point control, and to turn it up gradually. If you reach the point where you feel any burning in your membranes, or you are breathing full deep breaths, then you know where your own personal "limit" is (I think this could differ depending on the age or illness of the person). There is no report of anyone being overcome at that level, and it's easy to turn it down from there, or off, if you feel a headache, sweating, or panic.

It seems sensible to have precision regulation (I don't have this), and to start at a low level and increase gradually. The symptoms you describe sound like clear indictors to reduce or discontinue added CO2 concentration.
If there were a large study in which many people tried it and no-one was overcome, this would be meaningful. Are you aware of any such? I'm glad drug companies have to meet higher standards of safety testing than this.
Migraine and panic attacks don't always just go away when the trigger is removed. Panic attacks can make it difficult to think clearly about what to do, which could be a problem if depending on one's own judgement about turning down/off the CO2 supply. Migraines can last three days. Both can sometimes be triggered by slightly too strong Buteyko breathing exercises. I don't understand the mechanism yet (not sure if it is known), and I don't know whether too strong CO2 supplementation can have similar effects.
I still think having someone else around to turn things off if you can't would be a sensible precaution.

At some point, I'm hoping to work with others who have tried this and develop a manual, if others have more questions or concerns.

Doing this for children to see if it helps asthma is something I haven't tried yet. But I'll put that on my bucket list, with parental permission.

My son has occasional mild asthma. I have wondered about whether/how to try a low dose CO2 to see if it can interrupt an attack. A series of short breath holds under resting conditions can sometimes restore breathing enough that he can sleep through the night.

The scare-mongering I'm referring to is (what I think is) the general disinformation that CO2 is "evil" or dangerous. I think you and Blossom found some of that disinformation planted on Wiki and in the CDC. I was originally scared off by this disinformation myself.

As far as I know, I don't think I have come across any active disinformation on this, other than the common references to it being a waste produced by respiration (so is water - no one takes that as meaning water is 'evil', though depending on context and dose, water can be dangerous too). CO2 is necessary, increasing it can often be beneficial, and there are risks associated with higher concentrations. Warning of those risks is not necessarily scare mongering or disinformation.

It was only after reading Peat that I decided to keep an open mind and experiment for myself. I started off very slowly, and gradually turned it up, using a CO2 sensor to check the levels. It was then that I learned that 8-10% CO2 is in no way harmful for me, and seems to be even an optimal level that you might reach if you did bag-breathing for a minute or two.

Somewhere around 15-18% I think it's fair to say that I feel as if I had done expert Buteyko breath-holding for two minutes or more, at the level of the yogis or Wim Hof. [Having found where this yogi experience is for me a few times, I don't go that far now. For now, it's an area of book study only for me, as I try to learn more about the yogi pathways, involving it seems norepinephrine and uncoupled respiration].

I suspect that prolonged use might make it important to measure and monitor pH levels. With bag breathing a few times a day, you can't make a very large change in a short time. With continuous long-duration supply, I wonder if it could be possible to become dangerously acidic, esp for anyone a bit low on alkaline mineral stores to begin with, even if there were no obvious signs of this before hand. I think being too acidic may be one of the drivers of hyperventilation (since it relieves it); overriding this protection, without paying attention to acidity, could cause problems. This is my lay-persons speculation, not based on as full an understanding as I would like.
If Reams was right, depending on the timing wrt food and daylight, UpH can give a good approximation of intercellular pH - an non-invasive test. He would suggest aiming to keep it within 6.2 - 6.8 to allow proper functioning and repair of cells.
I also think it would be wise to avoid it for at least a couple of days after any blows to the head, and longer if it was serious, esp concussion etc. Hyperventilation is protective in head injuries, because it reduces the risk/volume of internal bleeding. I guess there might be risks with other conditions where there is a risk of excessive bleeding.
There may be other factors too, that I am not aware of. If it hasn't been studied much, then there may be risks that nobody understands.

But you can't reach that level very easily by accident, since it would take such a large amount of CO2 to fill even a small room with that much CO2 (assuming you have a fan on to mix the air). If a 20 ounce canister could completely empty, for example, it would not be sufficient to fill a small room with more than 5% CO2 (assuming some air flow in the room to mix it).

I just rechecked the density, and realized I'd read it wrong first time I looked at it. I had mistakenly calculated my 3kg tank could nearly my large living room!
But you are right. 2kg ~ 1m3. So my big tank, if emptied from full, would only be about 1.5m3 CO2, which would mix to about 3% in my bedroom if the doors and windows were closed. And a 20oz or 28oz (800g) would be so much less. I really should have checked this better first time round.
None the less, accidentally emptying it all at once could produce some temporary volumes of too high concentration, which could cause problems (as suikerbuik noted, and I too noticed when I did my dry CO2 bath experiment. Much less of a danger than I originally thought, but still not completely safe.

I still think there is likely a place for this method, and I still don't think it is OK to assure everyone it is completely safe on the information I've seen so far.

Health doesn't depend on CO2 measurements/ values solely, absolutely not. Still, It's been said earlier in this topic intracellular CO2 production is what we need to aim for. Supplemental can be beneficial but should be taken with care. I had a fish tank with CO2. When I disconnected the CO2 apparatus and I was exposed to it, it only took a moment before I became drowsy. It can be helpful but only in a controlled environment. IMO, you have to be careful with giving advices on a forum.

This makes sense to me.

 

[tara]

Peat's said he's even willing to accept mild respiratory acidosis (pH < 7.35) if it means you can get your pCO2 up.

Where is this from?

This from Protective CO2 and aging:

Ordinarily, carbon dioxide and bicarbonate are thought of only in relation to the regulation of pH, and only in a very general way. Because of the importance of keeping the pH of the blood within a narrow range, carbon dioxide is commonly thought of as a toxin, because an excess can cause unconsciousness and acidosis. But increasing carbon dioxide doesn't necessarily cause acidosis, and acidosis caused by carbon dioxide isn't as harmful as lactic acidosis.

This reads to me as Peat explicitly acknowledging the serious risks associated with excessive CO2, as well pointing to some of the benefits of optimum (often higher) levels.

 

[visionofstrength]

Peat's said he's even willing to accept mild respiratory acidosis (pH < 7.35) if it means you can get your pCO2 up.

Where is this from?

This from Protective CO2 and aging:

Ordinarily, carbon dioxide and bicarbonate are thought of only in relation to the regulation of pH, and only in a very general way. Because of the importance of keeping the pH of the blood within a narrow range, carbon dioxide is commonly thought of as a toxin, because an excess can cause unconsciousness and acidosis. But increasing carbon dioxide doesn't necessarily cause acidosis, and acidosis caused by carbon dioxide isn't as harmful as lactic acidosis.

This reads to me as Peat explicitly acknowledging the serious risks associated with excessive CO2, as well pointing to some of the benefits of optimum (often higher) levels.

He talks a little more about this in relation to the Henderson-Hasselbalch equation. Basically, acidosis from lactic acid, which is the feeling you may know too well, of being tired or achy, can be serious, while respiratory acidosis from an excess of CO2, which is how you feel at 9,000 feet, elated and energetic, is actually protective, similar to a fetus or newborn.

When Peat says carbon dioxide therapy is "extremely safe", I think you're right and he means, of course, extreme safety relative to other dangerous, and expensive treatments or drugs. Please let me know if there's anything I can do to assuage your fears, which are the same fears that I, too, shared for a time, until I began actually doing carbon dioxide therapy. Once I started doing it, I realized that all the negative associations about carbon dioxide are nothing more than disinformation, most likely planted by corrupt governments and corporations. Truly, if the public ever learned how easy and practical it is to be healthy with carbon dioxide therapy, the world would never be the same.

It's as if you've been magically transported to an altitude of 9,000 feet, provided of course, that you do the therapy long enough, and at a sufficient concentration, to emulate what the air would be like at 9,000 feet.

If anyone has questions about carbon dioxide therapy, please PM me. I'd like to talk you through it, and learn from your experiences.

My son has occasional mild asthma. I have wondered about whether/how to try a low dose CO2 to see if it can interrupt an attack. A series of short breath holds under resting conditions can sometimes restore breathing enough that he can sleep through the night.

In the video I linked above Peat talks about how children in the polluted air of Mexico City, 9,000 feet above sea level, do not suffer from asthma, but when they travel down to sea level, where the air is clean, asthma begins.

If you're interested, I'd be happy to share some ways that I sleep with CO2. It's the most restful sleep I've been able to achieve, as measured by the sleep monitoring device I use.

 

[m_arch]

I do think it's positive that my CO2 is increased especially in light of the fact that I live at only 700 feet above sea level and have been off diamox for several months. My bag breathing has been sporadic at best due to some stressful life circumstances, so all in all I'm pleased with my results.

Did you notice your o2 saturation / heart rate change while being on Diamox?

 

[Blossom]

Did you notice your o2 saturation / heart rate change while being on Diamox?

Yes, my 02 saturation was higher on diamox.
ETA: my heart rate was higher then back then but I don't think it was because of the diamox. It stayed high- generally above 100- for my first couple years of peating.

 

[m_arch]

Yes, my 02 saturation was higher on diamox.

What was it before and after?
Do you find that buteyko breathing / bag breathing etc lowers your o2 saturation as well?
Thats interesting it has the reverse effect...

 

[Blossom]

What was it before and after?
Do you find that buteyko breathing / bag breathing etc lowers your o2 saturation as well?
Thats interesting it has the reverse effect...

My baseline spo2 was typically @97% before trying diamox. While taking diamox it would usually be 99% whenever I checked but it sometimes went to 100%. I never checked my o2 saturation while bag breathing or buteyko because I figured the spo2 would drop some in those circumstances. In my thinking I assumed that no breathing or reduced breathing would result in a decreased spo2 but taking diamox stimulates breathing/respiration so the increased spo2 made sense to me. *I don't keep oximeters at home because I have to use them at work a lot and I don't put much meaning into the data it supplies for me personally.* This is only a personal choice thing and I don't mean to imply that they cannot be of value to other people. If I had the funds I'd purchase an ETCO2 monitor though.

 

[m_arch]

on my ETCO2 monitor a high reading, 6% kPa, corresponds with a lower oximeter reading (96% spO2).

Its interesting Diamox stimulates breathing... this indicates to me that its having a reduction in co2 on the body, unless the ETCO2 reading also increases. But if its not an uncoupler I don't think it would increase. Did you feel an energy boost when you took Diamox?

 

[Blossom]

on my ETCO2 monitor a high reading, 6% kPa, corresponds with a lower oximeter reading (96% spO2).

Its interesting Diamox stimulates breathing... this indicates to me that its having a reduction in co2 on the body, unless the ETCO2 reading also increases. But if its not an uncoupler I don't think it would increase. Did you feel an energy boost when you took Diamox?

At first it would seem that it would decrease CO2 by increasing breathing but since it inhibits carbonic anhydrase it actually raises CO2. I believe with increased CO2 while actively breathing oxygenation is improved. I'm also at low altitude so that's another factor to consider. I wouldn't say I necessarily felt an energy boost but I did feel increased well-being.

 

[m_arch]

At first it would seem that it would decrease CO2 by increasing breathing but since it inhibits carbonic anhydrase it actually raises CO2. I believe with increased CO2 while actively breathing oxygenation is improved. I'm also at low altitude so that's another factor to consider. I wouldn't say I necessarily felt an energy boost but I did feel increased well-being.

That's interesting about the carbonic anhydrase. Do you need a prescription to get Diamox or can you just get it from the pharmacy?
Actively breathing, meaning, exercise?

 

[Blossom]

That's interesting about the carbonic anhydrase. Do you need a prescription to get Diamox or can you just get it from the pharmacy?
Actively breathing, meaning, exercise?

Oh, I just meant breathing normally. I think diamox is by prescription in most countries but I imported mine.

 

[nullredvector]

was a guide for this ever developed? - @visionofstrength ?
does this regulator have a precise enough 'needle point' gauge?
Aquarium CO2 Simple Regulator - Diffuser Adjuster water plant fish tank moss crs

 

[Ideonaut]

If you're interested, I'd be happy to share some ways that I sleep with CO2. It's the most restful sleep I've been able to achieve, as measured by the sleep monitoring device I use.

I'm interested. Please share.

 

[Dan W]

does this regulator have a precise enough 'needle point' gauge?
Aquarium CO2 Simple Regulator - Diffuser Adjuster water plant fish tank moss crs

I tried an U.P. Aqua one that's very similar to that, and it works decently well. It is a little fiddly to get the exact flow that you want, but it seems like that's a problem even on the higher-end options.

 

[nullredvector]

thanks @Dan Wich !

 

[MeatOrchid]

Does it make sense to add baking soda to a humidifier?