You Don't Need PUFAs (inflammation) To Grow Muscles

[Elron]

Technically women have the same leg strength as men per weight basis. They probably aren't as strong up top due to lack of androgen receptors

 

[AretnaP]

I think @haidut says that muscle growth is basically just lowering of catabolism.

high-IQ post

 

[Hans]

The reason NSAIDs help with muscle regeneration is because it blunts the initial inflammatory response which leads to faster recovery short term, but in the long term it leads to a reduction in adaption and power output.
"COX-2 expression might only be of significance in stimulating re-entry of satellite cells into the cell cycle. NSAID inhibition of COX-2 may lead to a decreased number of active muscle stem cells" (8)
"PGF2α production to E series prostaglandin production contributed to the transition from the proliferating state to the differentiated state. PGE2 could lead to net protein degradation, possibly via activation of the lysosomal apparatus, and that PGF2α played a role in stimulating muscle protein synthesis and growth, especially under insulin stimulation."
Inflammation isn't needed, but looks like PGF2α is.

 

[Hans]

I think @haidut says that muscle growth is basically just lowering of catabolism.

Yes, that's why NSAIDs are beneficial for older individuals, by increasing net protein balance. However, NSAIDs seem to be negative or neutral for younger individuals.
Interestingly, a COX-2 specific inhibitor doesn't interfere with muscle growth or regeneration, but a COX-1 inhibitor does.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I think Ray Peat would say that some amount of stimulation or even irritation of the muscle is necessary to signal for structural adaptation, but full on inflammation would be considered a derangement of this system.

 

[Vinero]

I think Ray Peat would say that some amount of stimulation or even irritation of the muscle is necessary to signal for structural adaptation, but full on inflammation would be considered a derangement of this system.

Indeed. He said in one interview that a few puhs-ups or just a few reps with a dumbell is all that's needed.
Just to let the muscle know it's been worked on.

 

[Vinero]

But that was in the context of old people not losing muscle mass.
Don't know if that would work with younger people.

 

[Hans]

I think Ray Peat would say that some amount of stimulation or even irritation of the muscle is necessary to signal for structural adaptation, but full on inflammation would be considered a derangement of this system.

True, and everyone has a different level of optimal stimulation required for muscle growth. Prolonged inflammation leads to atrophy. I still think, if one has to use aspirin for reducing muscle damage, is taking over a responsibility of the body, and the body won't adapt properly. Same with anti-oxidants.

 

[Hans]

Older people have much greater inflammation going on (which is a few times greater that young individuals), and that's why NSAIDs is beneficial to them. Younger individuals, with a good metabolism and proper nutrition, won't have nearly as much inflammation and thus won't benefit from the NSAIDs in the same way.

 

[Glassy]

True. But I don't think anti-catabolism is the only thing required to gain muscle.
Otherwise females with high progesterone levels should gain muscle easily, but they can't.
Even though progesterone is the most powerful anti-catabolic hormone.

Muscle growth occurs when muscle protein synthesises is greater than breakdow/degradation. In males the androgens help with MPS but we have less protection from degradation. Most satellite cells are maintained however so we can quickly regain muscle in favourable conditions. I guess what I’m trying to say is that in some circumstances a lack of MPS hinders growth and sometimes it is the rate of degradation that is hindering it (through overtraining, high cortisol, etc).

 

[Vinero]

Muscle growth occurs when muscle protein synthesises is greater than breakdow/degradation. In males the androgens help with MPS but we have less protection from degradation. Most satellite cells are maintained however so we can quickly regain muscle in favourable conditions. I guess what I’m trying to say is that in some circumstances a lack of MPS hinders growth and sometimes it is the rate of degradation that is hindering it (through overtraining, high cortisol, etc).

Interesting, one way to signal to the organism that we are in a favorable environment is keeping stress down and feeding ourselves really good. Maybe just a few sets of push-ups to failure and eating satisfying amounts of good food is all that's required to gain muscle.

 

[Glassy]

Interesting, one way to signal to the organism that we are in a favorable environment is keeping stress down and feeding ourselves really good. Maybe just a few sets of push-ups to failure and eating satisfying amounts of good food is all that's required to gain muscle.

I guess it depends on the individual, where they are on there journey and where they want to go. Someone who’s been lifting properly for 5 years probably needs some more stimulation than just push ups and good food to gain any more muscle. For someone relatively untrained it would definitely be enough to build muscle. It’s also a good strategy for an older person trying to avoid losing muscle as the body becomes less sensitive to the stimulatory effect that leucine has on MPS. Most younger guys I talk to want to be bigger. Most of the older guys I talk to want to lose their belly (aka get toned).

I’ve found that building new muscle is an incredibly slow process and that you can’t trust their appearance as a gauge. The only thing I can truly trust as a measurement of my progress is my strength which is difficult to measure with body weight exercises. I’ve gone from lifting 4 days per week to 2 or 3 while peating and haven’t noticed any drop in strength (quite the opposite). I’ve put on a little fat which indicates a calorie surplus (a surplus is anabolic) and I feel like my hormones are more optimal. Over the next 12 months, I’ll be lifting when I feel like it rather Than when I feel I should and monitoring my progress/regression. I have my own squat rack and weights so maximising value from gym membership is not a concern.

 

[haidut]

To both @Vinero and @Such_Saturation:

That old study showed that anti-catabolism was the main mechanism behind muscle growth. So, glucocorticoid antagonist were the most anti-catabolic steroids. However, protein synthesis can be augmented by androgenic steroids. Androgenic steroids by themselves are rarely very anabolic if they do not also block cortisol. Their net effect can still be anabolic but the most "anabolic" steroids are a combination of strong glucocorticoid antagonists and strong androgen agonists. The steroid boldenone is probably the best known example, as that old study showed - it has higher affinity for GR (and is an antagonist) than even dexamethasone and almost as high affinity for AR (as agonist) than DHT. So, progesterone by itself should stop tissue destruction (the anti-catabolic aspect) but may not grow much muscle in men. In women, it is in fact as anabolic as testosterone, in line with that study on anti-catabolism/anabolism.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/...ic-for-muscle-as-testosterone-in-women.20109/

And it can be anabolic in men too provided it is not taken in doses that start to outcompete T for the 5-AR enzyme and thus lead to lower DHT synthesis, which lowers overall androgenic tone and reduces the anabolism through the AR. The only reason progesterone is not as anabolic in men as T is that progesterone is a weaker AR agonist than T and in higher doses lower DHT synthesis while T actually raises it. Along those lines, I suspect that T administered with a 5-AR inhibitor like finasteride will not be as anabolic as giving just T due to loss of androgenicity from lower DHT synthesis.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/the-anabolic-effects-of-progesterone.16381/

 

[nbznj]

the best muscle building compound among steroid users is the almighty trenbolone, there's no doubt about its efficacy purely caused by its anti catabolic effect.

@Vinero the 2 oral compounds I cited are close to being useless long term when I think of it, they mostly add stress to the liver and methyl-estradiol from dianabol is a nightmare. Unless someone competes, I don't really see a need for those types of compounds that can't be sustained for more than 4ish weeks. But then again I think that TRT is more than enough for 99% of the gymbros, the only ones who "need" more being the ones with a high fat free mass index (BMI sans body fat)

 

[Teres]

The anti-catabolism being key mechanism behind muscle growth I see it as being the key factor for efficient adaptive abilities of one's organism. Because that's what skeletal muscle hypertrophy is - organism's adaptive response to stress. No stress, no adaptation, no anabolism.
In this line of thought, although women in general have higher levels of progesterone, i.e anti-catabolic environment, this cannot be enough of a factor for anabolism. The cases when some of them put themselves under physical stress to a degree men do, which increases the need for dramatic adaptative response men usually experience, such cases are very, very tiny minority. On average we are bigger for a reason.

@Vinero , few sets of push ups to failure and adequate nutrition might be enough for a while if you haven't been physically active... for a while.

My first post here, hello everybody

 

[sladerunner69]

It's true, I work out and lift weights only a fraction of the time I did when I was bodybuilding and playing sports, yet I am almost as muscular and just as strong. I haven't eaten much PUFA in the past 5 years. Keeping cortisol and estrogen down (but not eradicated) seems to provide benefits in all areas.

 

[Jon]

"Bodybuilders" eat chicken breast and white rice because they blow all their money on steroids and have little left for quality food. You can get pretty big on steroids while eating very inadequately. However that is not the way to go.

Lmao at bodybuilder chicken and rice rationale!

I'm lovin your content man.

 

[lollipop]

My first post here, hello everybody

Welcome @Teres - thanks for contributing. This is a great thread - there are so many on this forum...have fun.

 

[Teres]

Welcome @Teres - thanks for contributing. This is a great thread - there are so many on this forum...have fun.

@lisaferraro Thank you. :) It's nice to see so many bright-minded people at one place.

 

[Cloudhands]

@Hans i think its fairly unanimous, atleast on this forum, that high innflammatory diets full of AA are not optimal for health, but i wonder how you feel about Omega 3 fats being incorporated in a majority of the lipid membrane?