You Don't Need PUFAs (inflammation) To Grow Muscles

[Hans]

@Hans i think its fairly unanimous, atleast on this forum, that high innflammatory diets full of AA are not optimal for health, but i wonder how you feel about Omega 3 fats being incorporated in a majority of the lipid membrane?

What do you mean with "Omega 3 fats being incorporated in a majority of the lipid membrane?"? As in, in most tissue of the body, or in high quantities?
When you eliminate PUFAs from the diet, the body creates its own unsaturated fat that is incorporated into the cell membranes. So the body does want some degree of unsaturation and membrane fluidity. The amount of PUFAs incorporated into cell membranes are proportional to dietary PUFA intake. This doesn't mean this is what the body wants or that it's optimal.
I'm not sure if that answers your question properly. If not, could you refine your question?

 

[Cloudhands]

What do you mean with "Omega 3 fats being incorporated in a majority of the lipid membrane?"? As in, in most tissue of the body, or in high quantities?
When you eliminate PUFAs from the diet, the body creates its own unsaturated fat that is incorporated into the cell membranes. So the body does want some degree of unsaturation and membrane fluidity. The amount of PUFAs incorporated into cell membranes are proportional to dietary PUFA intake. This doesn't mean this is what the body wants or that it's optimal.
I'm not sure if that answers your question properly. If not, could you refine your question?

I was just wondering what amount you did think was optimally incorporated proportionally from diet, if you thought any at all? Obviously my technical jargon lacks, i hope i make more sense to you this time around!

 

[Geronimo]

I think an even more important auxillary consideration is the health benefits of weight lifting in relation the systemic inflammation. Resistance training uses up systemic AA, essentially pulling inflammation away from organs and into muscles. Depleting AA through consistent resistance training is probably one of the healthiest things we can do. It also gives glucose somewhere to go, by emptying the muscle glycogen reserves. Lifting weights uses up omega 6 end products and excess glucose. I think we can all understand the benefits of that.

 

[Hans]

I think an even more important auxillary consideration is the health benefits of weight lifting in relation the systemic inflammation. Resistance training uses up systemic AA, essentially pulling inflammation away from organs and into muscles. Depleting AA through consistent resistance training is probably one of the healthiest things we can do. It also gives glucose somewhere to go, by emptying the muscle glycogen reserves. Lifting weights uses up omega 6 end products and excess glucose. I think we can all understand the benefits of that.

Good stuff. I would just like to add that the body is perfectly fine to burn glucose as fuel and doesn't need exercise for that process to work optimally.

 

[Geronimo]

Good stuff. I would just like to add that the body is perfectly fine to burn glucose as fuel and doesn't need exercise for that process to work optimally.

Yeah I hear you. But exercise can also bring you to that point. I don't know many adults who can blast through a ton of carbs without lethargy, and I think lifting weights is a good option for a lot of people. Absolutely necessary? No. Helpful for many? Yes.

 

[Hans]

Yeah I hear you. But exercise can also bring you to that point. I don't know many adults who can blast through a ton of carbs without lethargy, and I think lifting weights is a good option for a lot of people. Absolutely necessary? No. Helpful for many? Yes.

IMO and experience it's rather the type of carb and not carbs in general. But agreed, exercise or at least movement (such as walking) can greatly help.

 

[SonOfEurope]

Hans,

Thank you for the links! I have a question and would appreciate your advice.

I'm turning 29 soon... I've always been the type that gains muscle easily and in fact, when I was 17 to 19 I lifted heavy and got good results.

Then I stopped, I did lose some mass and strength but in 2018 I started progesterone (28mg a day) that helped me come off some nasty stuff, in June of this year I added DHEA 2mg.

Thing is, I went back to training in the fall of 2019 and the results have been fantastic... I'm especially impressed at the trapezium, lats and Shoulder mass I've added... From 166lbs to 189lb in one year.

189lbs at 5'10 1/5.

No noticeable fat gain, but the problem is (and always been) that just like I'm the type that's mesomorph with broad shoulders and thick neck, and don't lose muscle just gain it easily... I also have a hard time going below 15% bf...

I have reduced fat in favour of carbs and gelatinous protein, my T level is 574 and E2 is 16, the progesterone + DHEA is incredibly anti-catabolic, it makes me require more hours of sleep too.

But I really would like to get down to 11,5 - 12% by the spring... My PUFA intake is insignificant and as I've said my 3000 or so calories come from white rice, potatoes, sweet potatoes, gelatinous cuts and eggs, bananas and oranges (mangoes occasional ) and I supplement a multivitamin plus take weekly aspirin and k2...

Any helpful piece of advice to go below this ~15% I can't seem to trespass.... I do not over-train... My main excersizes are deadlift, close grip bench and dumbbell squat (don't have a rack) - would advice something like Sprints on my off-days?

I don't intend to ever be a 7% freak, just get to that point of fully noticeable upper body leanness.

Thanks in advance.

 

[PaRa]

Hans,

Thank you for the links! I have a question and would appreciate your advice.

I'm turning 29 soon... I've always been the type that gains muscle easily and in fact, when I was 17 to 19 I lifted heavy and got good results.

Then I stopped, I did lose some mass and strength but in 2018 I started progesterone (28mg a day) that helped me come off some nasty stuff, in June of this year I added DHEA 2mg.

Thing is, I went back to training in the fall of 2019 and the results have been fantastic... I'm especially impressed at the trapezium, lats and Shoulder mass I've added... From 166lbs to 189lb in one year.

189lbs at 5'10 1/5.

No noticeable fat gain, but the problem is (and always been) that just like I'm the type that's mesomorph with broad shoulders and thick neck, and don't lose muscle just gain it easily... I also have a hard time going below 15% bf...

I have reduced fat in favour of carbs and gelatinous protein, my T level is 574 and E2 is 16, the progesterone + DHEA is incredibly anti-catabolic, it makes me require more hours of sleep too.

But I really would like to get down to 11,5 - 12% by the spring... My PUFA intake is insignificant and as I've said my 3000 or so calories come from white rice, potatoes, sweet potatoes, gelatinous cuts and eggs, bananas and oranges (mangoes occasional ) and I supplement a multivitamin plus take weekly aspirin and k2...

Any helpful piece of advice to go below this ~15% I can't seem to trespass.... I do not over-train... My main excersizes are deadlift, close grip bench and dumbbell squat (don't have a rack) - would advice something like Sprints on my off-days?

I don't intend to ever be a 7% freak, just get to that point of fully noticeable upper body leanness.

Thanks in advance.

Lowering calories

 

[Hans]

Hans,

Thank you for the links! I have a question and would appreciate your advice.

I'm turning 29 soon... I've always been the type that gains muscle easily and in fact, when I was 17 to 19 I lifted heavy and got good results.

Then I stopped, I did lose some mass and strength but in 2018 I started progesterone (28mg a day) that helped me come off some nasty stuff, in June of this year I added DHEA 2mg.

Thing is, I went back to training in the fall of 2019 and the results have been fantastic... I'm especially impressed at the trapezium, lats and Shoulder mass I've added... From 166lbs to 189lb in one year.

189lbs at 5'10 1/5.

No noticeable fat gain, but the problem is (and always been) that just like I'm the type that's mesomorph with broad shoulders and thick neck, and don't lose muscle just gain it easily... I also have a hard time going below 15% bf...

I have reduced fat in favour of carbs and gelatinous protein, my T level is 574 and E2 is 16, the progesterone + DHEA is incredibly anti-catabolic, it makes me require more hours of sleep too.

But I really would like to get down to 11,5 - 12% by the spring... My PUFA intake is insignificant and as I've said my 3000 or so calories come from white rice, potatoes, sweet potatoes, gelatinous cuts and eggs, bananas and oranges (mangoes occasional ) and I supplement a multivitamin plus take weekly aspirin and k2...

Any helpful piece of advice to go below this ~15% I can't seem to trespass.... I do not over-train... My main excersizes are deadlift, close grip bench and dumbbell squat (don't have a rack) - would advice something like Sprints on my off-days?

I don't intend to ever be a 7% freak, just get to that point of fully noticeable upper body leanness.

Thanks in advance.

Reducing calories and tracking your weight is the best way to go about it. Try to lose about 2kg per month or 1lbs per week. More than that, then it's too fast. One thing you could try is maintenance calories for 6 days and then a 24 hour fast on the 7th day to create your deficit and see how that goes. I'm dieting down myself right now and doing fine on a small deficit. Still progressing in strength. I'm prob at around 12-13% right now.
My tips would be to have a good breakfast with something solid like meat and salt and a good dinner and pre-bed snack. A good breakfast is crucial (for me) for optimal energy during the day and a good dinner and pre-bed snack essential for a good night's rest. I also like to have a little something before training and something bigger post-training to avoid excess fatigue. So if you structure your meals appropriately to manage hunger and recovery, you won't even notice you're in a deficit.
I don't do any cardio myself, but walking can help increase calories out. However I don't actually like training more to expend more calories. The body has a way of balancing things out again, which nullifies the effects of excess cardio.

 

[YourUniverse]

If you diet too aggressively, stress hormones will prevent the stubborn fat from burning off. You want the largest caloric deficit that keeps stress low, which will end up being a conservative deficit.

 

[SonOfEurope]

@Hans

Thank you Sir, I will start using a calorie tracking app since the 3000 calorie estimate I've given Is honest truth a basic square estimate from my ~400 grams of carbs, ~160 of proteins from different sources and the remain 60-65 g of fat that is almost fully saturated, very, very low Polyinsatures.

I used to have the practice of eating a small cottage cheese sandwich as the last bite before pillowtime (9pm.), I used to do this because of Peat's advice on how casein is a good nighttime protein... But since I started p4+dhea I have such an easy time falling asleep that after dinner at 7 or 7.30pm just go straight to the next morning.

I'll re-introduce that and after I know the number of calories coming IN NOW. I'll do a 10% drop because I don't want to enter dreadful catabolism.

So if I'm indeed for example at 3000 calories sharp ATM, I'll bring it it to 2.700 for the next few months and not reduce my training to avoid muscle loss .

Thanks for the advice on cardio, you're right... I used to sprint mostly for the adrenaline of it - I won't deny I really enjoy it on occasion .

 

[Recoen]

@Hans

Thank you Sir, I will start using a calorie tracking app since the 3000 calorie estimate I've given Is honest truth a basic square estimate from my ~400 grams of carbs, ~160 of proteins from different sources and the remain 60-65 g of fat that is almost fully saturated, very, very low Polyinsatures.

I used to have the practice of eating a small cottage cheese sandwich as the last bite before pillowtime (9pm.), I used to do this because of Peat's advice on how casein is a good nighttime protein... But since I started p4+dhea I have such an easy time falling asleep that after dinner at 7 or 7.30pm just go straight to the next morning.

I'll re-introduce that and after I know the number of calories coming IN NOW. I'll do a 10% drop because I don't want to enter dreadful catabolism.

So if I'm indeed for example at 3000 calories sharp ATM, I'll bring it it to 2.700 for the next few months and not reduce my training to avoid muscle loss .

Thanks for the advice on cardio, you're right... I used to sprint mostly for the adrenaline of it - I won't deny I really enjoy it on occasion .

Are you taking pregnenolone? In a recent podcast @haidut sugfested trying 100mg/d + 5-10mg dhea for 1-2mos then dropping down to ~30mg and 5mg. And using progesterone for fibrotic conditions. Not to put words in his mouth, but he basically said to recreate the hormonal environment of puberty to lose fat and build muscle.

I like Layne Norton’s Carbon diet app.

 

[Hans]

@Hans

Thank you Sir, I will start using a calorie tracking app since the 3000 calorie estimate I've given Is honest truth a basic square estimate from my ~400 grams of carbs, ~160 of proteins from different sources and the remain 60-65 g of fat that is almost fully saturated, very, very low Polyinsatures.

I used to have the practice of eating a small cottage cheese sandwich as the last bite before pillowtime (9pm.), I used to do this because of Peat's advice on how casein is a good nighttime protein... But since I started p4+dhea I have such an easy time falling asleep that after dinner at 7 or 7.30pm just go straight to the next morning.

I'll re-introduce that and after I know the number of calories coming IN NOW. I'll do a 10% drop because I don't want to enter dreadful catabolism.

So if I'm indeed for example at 3000 calories sharp ATM, I'll bring it it to 2.700 for the next few months and not reduce my training to avoid muscle loss .

Thanks for the advice on cardio, you're right... I used to sprint mostly for the adrenaline of it - I won't deny I really enjoy it on occasion .

Just make sure to track your weight as well so that you know you're going in the right direction.
Lastly, don't reduce training volume too much as training is one of the most important things you can do to retain muscle mass. I'd say 6 sets at a minimum per muscle group per week is necessary to maintain mass as well as your training status.

 

[SonOfEurope]

@Hans

Will do, thanks again.

 

[DDRB]

I have noticed a few people on the forum questioning if you can build muscle on a lowish fat, low PUFA diet as you need inflammation to grow muscles.
Also, that taking NSAID like aspirin would hamper muscle protein synthesis due to inhibiting COX and therefor inflammation.
Well there are studies which show that aspirin significantly aids in muscle regeneration and growth in older men, and that it didn't hinder muscle protein synthesis in short term use in untrained men.
Well, I think the following study is worth a mention...

Omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids augment the muscle protein anabolic response to hyperaminoacidemia-hyperinsulinemia in healthy young and middle aged men and women
One group took 4g omega 3 for 8 weeks. (Omega 3 displaces arachidonic acid from phospholipids and will result in less inflammation compared to those having more omega 6 in their phospholipids.)
But the omega 3 supplementation didn't hamper muscle protein synthesis, but it would rather seem to have increased it, by means of improving insulin sensitivity. (Image attached.)

Hence a low PUFA diet will not hinder muscle protein synthesis by means of less inflammation, but it would rather seem that muscle growth comes from the ability to regenerate, via internal mechanisms, and not via inflammation.

Anti-oxidants should be avoided a few hours before or after a workout as that will hinder the body's natural ability to heal itself, but I think inflammation is unnecassary for muscle growth. PUFAs are anyway pro-estrogen, pro-cortisol and therefor catabolic, etc. whereas SFAs are anabolic and will aid in better muscle function, integrity and anabolic stimulis.

What do you guys think? Counter and/or complementory studies/arguments welcome.

Study shows omega 3 supplementation helps muscle growth, there is another study I saw on this forum (with muffins) that shows the same with omega 6.
So PUFAs help with muscle growth, why go through mental gymnastics to try to prove otherwise ?

"PUFAs are anyway pro-estrogen, pro-cortisol and therefor catabolic, etc. whereas SFAs are anabolic and will aid in better muscle function, integrity and anabolic stimulis"

begging the question, this is not what is observed in empirical situations (studies and personal anecdotes)

 

[Nomane Euger]

Study shows omega 3 supplementation helps muscle growth, there is another study I saw on this forum (with muffins) that shows the same with omega 6.
So PUFAs help with muscle growth, why go through mental gymnastics to try to prove otherwise ?

how is that "mental gymnastics" to give a different perspective than "Study shows omega 3 supplementation helps muscle growth, there is another study I saw on this forum (with muffins) that shows the same with omega 6."if he him self bases his claims on others studies?

 

[DDRB]

how is that "mental gymnastics" to give a different perspective than "Study shows omega 3 supplementation helps muscle growth, there is another study I saw on this forum (with muffins) that shows the same with omega 6."if he him self bases his claims on others studies?

His study suggests that omega 3s help build muscle, but he explains that this is because omega 3s block inflammation caused by omega 6s (by prostaglandins).
But besides that:

Lean Mass Increased 3x As Much With PUFA Versus SFA

Thoughts on this study? Was it discussed elsewhere? Overfeeding Polyunsaturated and Saturated Fat Causes Distinct Effects on Liver and Visceral Fat Accumulation in Humans With higher omega-6, there was an equal gain of fat and muscle. With higher saturated fat, only 20% was lean mass.

raypeatforum.com

How/why Does Eating Muffins Made With SFA Cause Visceral Fat Gain, But Not With PUFA?

"In conclusion, overeating SFAs promotes hepatic and visceral fat storage, whereas excess energy from PUFAs may instead promote lean tissue in healthy humans." -- Overfeeding polyunsaturated and saturated fat causes distinct effects on liver and visceral fat accumulation in humans. - PubMed - NCBI

raypeatforum.com

One of the explanations given by several people including implied by Hans in another topic on inflammation is that the additional muscle gains from omega 6 supplementation is the increased inflammation, which is not only based on nothing but is in addition in contradiction with the explanation on omega 3.
So I consider it mental gymnastics, yes.

Besides, Haidut recently made a topic where he lies by incriminating PUFAs to lower fertility:

Dietary PUFA Causes (reversible) Male Infertility And Androgen Deficiency

An amazing study, which should serves as a causing to the nuts-and-seeds crowd precisely because it used exactly such a diet to produce these highly negative effects on male fertility. Come to think of it, it is common knowledge in many cultures around the world that seeds and seed extracts are...

raypeatforum.com

He "forgets" to specify that pumpkin seeds are one of the most powerful anti-androgens (dht) food known. I pointed it out.

I like Peat, but I disagree with his work on pufa and find most of the statements of his people and his followers on this forum about PUFAs to be misleading or even fraudulent.

 

[Hans]

Study shows omega 3 supplementation helps muscle growth

Always look at what population they studied before extrapolating and also which methods they used to determine muscle mass or recomp. What was their whole diet and what did they control for. Also, how many studies are there to back up the point. If it's just one, it could be a unicorn finding.
Eating PUFA or not doesn't matter much in terms of hypertrophy or fat loss in the short run. It likely matters most in the long run. And it's also the kind of PUFA that's being consumed. Is it peanuts or is it junk food deep-fried in canola? Big difference.

 

[DDRB]

Always look at what population they studied before extrapolating and also which methods they used to determine muscle mass or recomp. What was their whole diet and what did they control for. Also, how many studies are there to back up the point. If it's just one, it could be a unicorn finding.
Eating PUFA or not doesn't matter much in terms of hypertrophy or fat loss in the short run. It likely matters most in the long run. And it's also the kind of PUFA that's being consumed. Is it peanuts or is it junk food deep-fried in canola? Big difference.

You're totally right, when I'm defending PUFAs I'm talking about whole foods, not vegetable oils.