Wooo's "Progesterone, The Master Hormone Myth"

Discussion in 'Ray Peat Topics' started by Hitoshi, Mar 20, 2017.

  1. Hitoshi

    Hitoshi Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Messages:
    49
    *The Scribble Pad*: Progesterone pt 3: "master hormone" myth, immune system, appetite, obesity, diabetes


    discuss:

    particularly interested in this quote:
    "1) A brief addendum about immune system and progesterone...

    Point #1 is fairly comprehensive, as the myth of "progesterone as a master hormone" also ties into the fact progesterone is also an immune suppressant (Progesterone -> cortisol -> bull**** for immunity!). However I will just state this specifically and clearly: Progesterone is an IMMUNOSUPPRESSANT. Women with autoimmune disorders find remission during pregnancy and flares occurring posptartum. That's great if you are afflicted with an autoimmune disease, but if you are a normal woman then you're just opening yourself up to crap immune system, with risks of bacterial infections, viral infections, and even cancers. Particularly risk exists if the progesterone leads to blood glucose disorders, which it often does, as another noted effect of both progesterone and cortisol is diabetes, with hyperglycemia and an inability to normally build tissues, breaking down protein and not using glucose for energy."
     
  2. sladerunner69

    sladerunner69 Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    1,953
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Los Angeles

    Are you surmising that because women tend to flare up postpartum then progesterone is in turn immunosuppressant?

    I think you may need to extend your research a little further there, doctor bohr.
     
  3. Diokine

    Diokine Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2016
    Messages:
    254
    I like the part where she cited sources for a lot of those claims...

    edit : she
     
  4. mujuro

    mujuro Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    I concede that progesterone does lead to cortisol increases... if your body is in a state that necessitates an increase in cortisol i.e. low thyroid, poor glycogen storage, BG instability, etc. Then you don't end up with progesterone anyway - it's all shunted into glucocorticoids. Immunosuppression. If estrogen is implicated in every kind of autoimmune disease, and progesterone is anti-estrogenic, then it makes perfect sense why they go into remission during pregnancy. Immunosuppression. This blogger also has posts about D3 being immunosuppressive and harmful. Not a single mention of vitamin K on the entire site though...
     
  5. kayumochi

    kayumochi Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Messages:
    127
    Gender:
    Male
    That blogger calls Peat an outright quack ... I first came across her years ago with a link to her claim about D3and immunosuppression, which has been the exact opposite of my experience. Still, her blog has value.
     
  6. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    6,419
    Written like she needs a hug
     
  7. jitsmonkey

    jitsmonkey Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2015
    Messages:
    185
    She references synthetic progestins numerous times and speaks of them synonymously with progesterone. Ray has discussed this ad nauseum. She's drawn the same miserable conclusions about synthetic progestins as Ray has. Nothing here to see other than she swung and missed.
     
  8. mujuro

    mujuro Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Any deployment of the word "quack" tells me all I need to know about a person's allegiance to the dogmatic medical establishment.
     
  9. OP
    Hitoshi

    Hitoshi Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Messages:
    49
  10. Agent207

    Agent207 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2015
    Messages:
    619
    It's unbelievable so many people even doctors don't seem to differentiate progestins from progesterone and tend to put it all together in the same bag when therapeutic use is suggested.
     
  11. OP
    Hitoshi

    Hitoshi Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Messages:
    49
    i have no idea if by mentioning progestins she is assuming they act similarly. given the style in which this is written, and her references to administration, i would assume it is likely, i will need to message to find out.

    however, in a private discussion with @tyw on facebook, these articles were gleaned

    Protection of macaques against vaginal transmission of a pathogenic HIV-1/SIV chimeric virus by passive infusion of neutralizing antibodies - Nature Medicine
    > Compared to our previous experience with untreated female macaques, progesterone treatment facilitated consistent SHIV89.6PD infection with a lower virus inoculum (M.G.L., manuscript in preparation).

    Direct and Indirect Inhibition of Th1 Development by Progesterone and Glucocorticoids | The Journal of Immunology
    > In the presence of progesterone, activated human lymphocytes, especially γδ T cells, synthesize a 34-kDa molecule (progesterone-induced blocking factor) that inhibits NK activity and exerts an antiabortive effect in vivo

    > We have shown here that the local progesterone levels found at the human placenta could directly affect T cell differentiation in the absence of other types of cells and that Th1 development was significantly suppressed by progesterone at concentrations observed in sera during pregnancy.

    Estradiol Regulates Susceptibility following Primary Exposure to Genital Herpes Simplex Virus Type 2, while Progesterone Induces Inflammation
    > With an inoculation dose of 105 PFU, the saline- and P4-treated mice were found to be highly susceptible to genital HSV-2 infection
    > Both groups had extensive pathology and high viral titers in vaginal secretions, and 100% of mice succumbed by day 4 postinfection.
    > E2-treated mice were protected from HSV-2 infection at the same dose and did not display any vaginal pathology or viral shedding.
    > An analysis of the genes in the vaginal tissue showed that inflammation in the P4-treated group correlated with local induction of chemokines and chemokine receptors that were absent in the E2-treated mice and in uninfected P4-treated mice.

    (P4 is progesterone. E2 is estrogen. HSV-2 is Herpes Simplex Virus 2)

    ***Direct quote from TYW***
    Some of the studies suggest a shift from Th1 mediated immunity to Th2 mediated immunity with increasing progesterone levels.
    somewhat makes sense, since the Th1 stuff is usually thought to be responsible for defence against extracellular pathogens (like bacteria and viruses).

    We suggest that perhaps the immunosuppression is of a controlled quality in order to maximise epigenetic viral signalling.
    This is what i hoped to discuss...
     
  12. OP
    Hitoshi

    Hitoshi Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Messages:
    49
    ^^^

    again, some of these articles list "progesterone implants that "mimic hormonal based contraceptives" (no mention if natural Pg or a progestin)
     
  13. OP
    Hitoshi

    Hitoshi Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Messages:
    49
    i tend to agree with this stance, however practitioner friends have stated that they often use bioidentical Pg for out of control immune responses...
    whether it recovers that cells bioenergetic state and lowers the NEED for immune flares is unknown as far as i am concerned at this stage.

    if this is not the mechanism, then it throws a spanner in the works of a lot of my clinical work.
     
  14. OP
    Hitoshi

    Hitoshi Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Messages:
    49
    Ray's (predictable) response:

    "Do you know who the person is? I wonder how her health is, considering her bizarre beliefs."
     
  15. PakPik

    PakPik Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2016
    Messages:
    331
    Gender:
    Female
  16. Westside PUFAs

    Westside PUFAs Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2015
    Messages:
    1,537
    Pregnenolone is the master hormone, not progesterone.

    .
     
  17. michael94

    michael94 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    Messages:
    689
    hormones are hormones, they're not really the master of anything... lol
     
  18. Ella

    Ella Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2012
    Messages:
    281
    PakPik, thanks so much for sharing. What a brilliant paper; overlaying so many important mechanisms.

    "if the thesis presented here is correct, this would constitute a case of two entirely independent compensatory mechanisms linked to a single proximate system. The latter suggests that evolutionary investigations of health and disease should attend carefully to the possibility of complex, and even multiple, second-order adaptations stemming from constraints on the optimality of individual adaptations."

    Yes, as I keep stressing, there is so much that we don't know. the body is wiser than men and perhaps women's intuition is heightened by the fact we produce more progesterone. So guys listen to your pregnant partner when it comes to taking risks. We can't simply assume progesterone supplementation is going to be right for all. Feeling like a contented cow when pregnant and breastfeeding may be beneficial for mother and bub; however feeling like a contented cow in the outside world competing with males is not going to do women any favours. We need to be ruthless and kickass mean ******** when the time arises, whether it is dealing with arseholes out there or pathogens seeking to exploit our hospitality.

    "Consonant with this hypothesis, studies have shown increases in disgust sensitivity (a proximate mechanism subserving disease avoidance) during the vulnerable first trimester (Fessler et al. 2005). More specifically, disgust sensitivity, disease-avoidance behaviors, and related perceptions and attitudes all increase as a function of progesterone levels (Conway et al. 2007; Navarete et al. 2007; Fleischman and Fessler 2011; but see also Fessler and Navarrete 2003). Likewise, preferences for healthy over unhealthy faces (a cue of disease risk) are elevated during periods of elevated progesterone (Jones et al. 2005). Although compensatory prophylaxis is behavioral, we believe that a similar logic explains the effects of progesterone on cholesterol, as the latter plays a central role in infection.

    The preference for healthy over unhealthy faces is useful for parents that have children looking for partners. Maybe we should be dosing them with a little progesterone in order that they seek healthy partners. :)

    Yeah, I am curious how her health will be going forward into old age?? I am thankful that she has led us to explore this relationship between progesterone-cholesterol and immune modulation in pregnancy and implications beyond the pregnancy state.
     
  19. Dante

    Dante Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    388
    Gender:
    Male
    What you are saying is very much like the pregnenolone steal but in this case it's the progestrone steal. I am not sure if it works that way i.e by being shunted all to glucocorticoids
     
  20. mujuro

    mujuro Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Well "all" is probably not the case but I know when I was using progest E unmedicated, hours following 10mg dose I experienced awful mixed-episode symptoms. It only took two times for mr to realize the link. My case is unique though, since there is such poor sensitivity for negative feedback for cortisol in bipolar.
     
Loading...