Won't Stop Shedding/thinning

[Luckytype]

You sound pretty thin, so I would say that your calories are too low.

2000-2500 is basically starving yourself, and would be what most woman here intake per day. Shoot for 3500+ each day for a week, and see if you feel better.

Without enough fuel, your body will start to prioritize where to use energy, and cause low-T pretty quickly in males.

Also, your vitamin D sup is basically non-existent (Idealabs uses 1000iu per dose).

Based on your first post, it sounds like your body is in a very stressed state, so alcohol is probably a bad idea until you get your health in order.

Finally, here's a list of links that might help you moving forward:

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki
(this is an excellent primer on Dr. Peat's work that's easy to understand)

Optimal diet for increasing lifespan
(big picture)

Becoming A Man With Peat And Haidut
(this guy is close to your age and made incredible improvements just using the basic Peat suggestions)

Solving the big 3:

+ Clean the Liver

Caffeine Reverses Stress, Insulin Resistance, Hypertension

High Protein Diet Prevents & Reverses Fatty Liver Disease (steatosis)

+ Fix Digestive Issues

Amino Acid Supplementation For People With Poor Digestion

Ray Peat Potato Protein Soup (RPPPS)

Cyproheptadine - A Wonder Drug?

+ Reduce PUFA in Tissues down to almost nothing

PUFA Depletion Can (probably) Be Accomplished In 30 Days!

Haidut's Summary Of PUFA

VoS uncoupling thread

Cheers!

Getting Ripped With Dr Peat

@theLaw Can you give me an idea on this situation? Just your thoughts.

Youve tagged in on my threads too but I just thought of this:

2 or 3 years ago i had no issue with hair or metabolism despite abusing my body in the gym and the kitchen.
I would bulk hard as hell in the winter, eating everything in site consuming maybe 3500 to 5k per day and some weekend binges of up to 10k(for fun lol) once a month. I was strong as an ox, but i was always tired. Toilet habit unaffected, i snored and i was always sluggish, groggy and just slow moving(except when it came to the gym). Felt like molasses in the morning

What do you think was going on there when i was eating in surplus, had no issues, but felt like a sloth.

 

[Wagner83]

MB for about 2 months now, pretty sure i've noticed a nootropic effect,
mb + a HENCH coffee is a good start to the day

Did you check blood pressure? From what I understand mb accumulates quickly in the body, so perhaps 1-2mg daily for two months can be too much and increase serotonin.

 

[Wagner83]

hello matey

i stopped my hair loss about six years in my early 20's ago but wasn't happy and insisted it grew all back haha.

Thanks for the post, your emphasis on posture make sense.

 

[ddjd]

Hey I've taken cyproheptadine a few times before, the stuff makes me feel so tired and I gain weight pretty fast on it too, I'm a bit disinclined considering I have to study and feeling sluggish all the time would make life quite hard.

I don't think you understand. Its just a test to clarify if Serotonin is the cause of your hair loss. There's twenty plus things which can reduce Serotonin once you know that's the cause, cypro is just the strongest

 

[franc0]

I don't think you understand. Its just a test to clarify if Serotonin is the cause of your hair loss. There's twenty plus things which can reduce Serotonin once you know that's the cause, cypro is just the strongest

I'm not disputing serotonin as a cause for MPB, in fact during my summer break I used cypro quite frequently, 1mg every 2 days or so and I'd have said my hair fall was somewhat reduced, nonetheless I do feel rather sluggish the day after I use it, also it makes me gain weight very rapidly, excess weight as a precursor to the synthesis of more estrogen as well as the prostaglandins?? Here and there, I guess it's alright, particularly when I'm stressed,
nothing like a 10 hour deep sleep after a fat 2mg hit of cypro!
What have your experiences with cypro been like?

 

[raypeatclips]

You sound pretty thin, so I would say that your calories are too low.

2000-2500 is basically starving yourself, and would be what most woman here intake per day. Shoot for 3500+ each day for a week, and see if you feel better.

Without enough fuel, your body will start to prioritize where to use energy, and cause low-T pretty quickly in males.

Also, your vitamin D sup is basically non-existent (Idealabs uses 1000iu per dose).

Based on your first post, it sounds like your body is in a very stressed state, so alcohol is probably a bad idea until you get your health in order.

Finally, here's a list of links that might help you moving forward:

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki
(this is an excellent primer on Dr. Peat's work that's easy to understand)

Optimal diet for increasing lifespan
(big picture)

Becoming A Man With Peat And Haidut
(this guy is close to your age and made incredible improvements just using the basic Peat suggestions)

Solving the big 3:

+ Clean the Liver

Caffeine Reverses Stress, Insulin Resistance, Hypertension

High Protein Diet Prevents & Reverses Fatty Liver Disease (steatosis)

+ Fix Digestive Issues

Amino Acid Supplementation For People With Poor Digestion

Ray Peat Potato Protein Soup (RPPPS)

Cyproheptadine - A Wonder Drug?

+ Reduce PUFA in Tissues down to almost nothing

PUFA Depletion Can (probably) Be Accomplished In 30 Days!

Haidut's Summary Of PUFA

VoS uncoupling thread

Cheers!

Getting Ripped With Dr Peat

Wow theLaw-Robot's copied and paste message is getting longer and longer!

Btw idealabs updated their estroban to 2,000 IU per dose.

 

[ddjd]

I'm not disputing serotonin as a cause for MPB, in fact during my summer break I used cypro quite frequently, 1mg every 2 days or so and I'd have said my hair fall was somewhat reduced, nonetheless I do feel rather sluggish the day after I use it, also it makes me gain weight very rapidly, excess weight as a precursor to the synthesis of more estrogen as well as the prostaglandins?? Here and there, I guess it's alright, particularly when I'm stressed,
nothing like a 10 hour deep sleep after a fat 2mg hit of cypro!
What have your experiences with cypro been like?

I don't use cypro. I use other things which reduce Serotonin but don't make me tired.

 

[franc0]

I don't use cypro. I use other things which reduce Serotonin but don't make me tired.

What types of things do you use to reduce serotonin?

 

[theLaw]

Wow theLaw-Robot's copied and paste message is getting longer and longer!

Btw idealabs updated their estroban to 2,000 IU per dose.

Correct. The Idealabs website shows a pic with 1000iu, but the Estroban thread says 2000iu. My bottle lists 2000iu as well.

Thanks Clips!

 

[ExD]

Not a theory, if you have shitty metabolism alcohol doesn't really help.

hey man, thanks for taking the time to offer me your advice, do you have any resources I could use for fixing my posture, do you think something like yoga would be sufficient?
I think bloodflow is crucial in hair loss, you can only go so far in terms of diet towards supporting healthy metabolism, but sometimes, after years of malfunction it's necessary to intervene in more drastic ways and have to take supplements, lifestyle changes, etc. Did you incorporate any supplements?

thanks for the advice!

i tried many supplements, like ridiculous amounts, but mostly the ones i stuck to long term were good vitamin e, d3, zinc pic and maybe b vit complex from time to time

i guess most yoga would help, but mostly you want to focus on your feet and ankles and work your way up, so the holistic approach of something like hatha might not give very fast results



is more useful i think, since the movements are simple but focus almost entirely on thoracic and leg mobility

 

[Prosper]

Appreciating your posts @ExD and I share your perspective about the importance of posture & blood flow in relation to hair health. What have you been massaging the scalp with? I've been using knuckles and fingertips but it's physically tiring. Some kind of tool would be nice.

 

[ExD]

Appreciating your posts @ExD and I share your perspective about the importance of posture & blood flow in relation to hair health. What have you been massaging the scalp with? I've been using knuckles and fingertips but it's physically tiring. Some kind of tool would be nice.

it gets a lot easier when your fingers build up strength

you can also use a gua sha stone, but it is only good for breaking up fibrosis imo, whereas stretching and pinching actually encourage angiogenesis

with the stone, the aim is to actually bruise skin and bring toxins to the surface from deep tissues throughout the body, so on the scalp, where there is no deep tissue, it's more effective for literally destroying calcified tissue through sheer force, but it can't compete with the versatility of fingers

 

[Waynish]

I bet if you quit the mb and coffee you'll see it slow down at least.

 

[Scenes]

hello matey

i stopped my hair loss about six years in my early 20's ago but wasn't happy and insisted it grew all back haha.

some things i have learnt;

diet really isn't that important - yes, it's important to eat enough food and to eat food that doesn't make you sick, but the healthier you get the less this will be an issue. eventually, you will have the intuition to know what to and what not to do.

people talk about stress hormones like they are the devil but they are not. sometimes it's better to be be ramped up on stress and out living life than to be bogged down with food and stuck obsessing over that one night's drinking. i had good regrowth during drug binges where i would eat all sorts of ***t i knew was bad for me, simply cuz i'd gotten to the point where thinking about what i could/could not eat was causing my more psychological worry than actually eating it

i would say that avoiding gluten and pufa is important, but again i was binging on these during hard times and while they certainly don't help regrowth, they didn't affect shedding/loss at all that i can see, at least not in the way people seem to go on about. those with more sensitive nervous systems will probably need to be more careful but if you get a grip on your general disposition, a few slip ups will only serve to encourage you to do better and better

if you're getting fibre, protein, carbs and good fats in, don't get too hungup on the details imo.

posture - this is the number one defining factor in most mpb cases imo. sometimes it's mild, sometimes it's not. in my case, the outer ball of my left foot was very slightly atrophied (from bag carrying/cliff diving/early trauma scoliosis) and while no one would have noticed but me, it literally made my entire frame lopsided. the irony is people always complimented my posture as near perfect, but when i corrected this (via dance/martial arts/generally groping the ground at every opportunity) not only did my frame start to re-align but a lot of emotional bull**** i'd been repressing started squirting out of everywhere and i generally felt pretty fantastic / unshakeable.

posture reflects psychology and you need to be grounded, especially if you're worried about stress hormones (that's like worrying about worrying xD), and believe me, in 99% of cases someone with hair loss will have less than perfect posture, but it can be corrected with nothing but patience and mindfulness.

another important point is to learn to rest your tongue on the soft palate of your mouth, stretching it like you would any muscle in yoga, consistently on a daily basis. the oddest thing happened in that one day in work, i found my tongue resting there naturally, it was so bizarre, but when researching it i actually discovered this is VITAL for perfect posture. you literally cannot have an aligned spine if your tongue isn't helping to support your atlantoaxial joint. it amazed me that in attempting to fix my posture, my body began doing this subconsciously. eventually, you will be able to stretch your tongue all the way up to your nasal passages and avoid having it in the mouth at all, unless you're eating or talking

topicals - generally speaking, i don't think these things work well and if they do, they don't do enough to warrant the time/investment. i tried most everything (i first registered on this forum like 6 ears ago and that was after 5 years of constant research since my thinning started at 18 so i'd tried everything short of burning my scalp with open flame xD) but the one thing i will praise is magnesium chloride. not only does this have a noticeable effect on my mood, i think it is probably the reason i became so aware of my posture problems.

when you saturate your body with magnesium it will begin to decalify tissues and relax muscles that are chronically under stress. your body has no real choice but to relax, and as you relax, you will naturally seek balance. this loosens the fascia and ultimately provides breathing room for the galea, which is generally tight and fibrotic and unable to nourish hair on the top of the head. mag baths, transdermal sprays, and mega doses of oral tablets short term can do amazing things for your mind and eventually your body

-edit- vinegar might also be useful. i actually wash my head in 8% distilled vinegar because it's cheap, it doesn't smell and it helps tenderize tough tissue while breaking up sebum and calcium deposits around hair, which feed bacteria and encourage inflammation. i don't actually know whether this has helped towards the regrowth i noticed in last six weeks but i figured i'd mention it. i think distilled is probably better than acv because the vitamins in acv will leave your head sticky and won't do much to nourish your noggin.

massage - imo the previous points will stop hair loss but regrowing it is another matter. in order to regrow you not only need to correct posture and allow clean flow of energy up and down your body, but you need to undo the years of damage caused by it - you need to literally break up the fibrotic tissue that is producing inflammatory proteins that leads to excess sebum, bacteria, and everything we think is the cause of mpb. deep tissue massage about 20-30mins x2 a day for a year is the bare minimum imo, and one of the reasons most people won't see results, because it's a massive investment most of us underestimate, but it does work

i had good regrowth on back and i was getting regrowth on front/hairline until i got hit with a hat trick of life drama - parent died, evicted, two cars blew up and my only coping strategy was drug and sex abuse, which made me too lethargic to apply any of this for the last year - during which time all i maintained was good posture, and i lost no ground except what massage had provided me

gut health - this is tricky because i'm naturally athletic and have rarely had gut issues, but i am far from having a healthy gut. while we can try to manipulate this sort of thing via diet, imo that is mostly throwing fuel on the fire if you don't master other things first. good posture, exercise, proper breathing and a calm will help heal a gut faster than stuffing it full of things it's already having a hard time dealing with. raising your body temperature via exercise/controlled breathing will raise cortisol, but this will help cellular respiration and co2 production, helping to oxygenate the body and ramp up body temperature, and i think a healthy body temperature (very slightly above average) is the best indicator of gut health. fermented foods etc probably help a lot because they are easier to digest and while ray peat says the gut should be sterile, i disagree - the same way i disagree with his theory on prolactin and balding. which brings us to;

sex - i had very unhealthy approaches to sex and still do to some extent, but a lot of it has simply dissipated as i got other stuff under control. while i admit prolactin might be involved in shedding, i do not think it is involved in actual chronic hair loss as much as people expect. chronic masturbation on the other hand can actually be detrimental simply because it encourages atrophy of muscles in and around the hips that are not only essential for great sex, but equally essential for balance and posture.

light - i'd say getting adequate sunlight is essential but honestly, i live in ireland and can't comment lol. i feel a lot better everywhere when i happen across it and on that alone, without getting into my laymen understanding of vitamin d, speaks for itself. if you live somewhere sunny, make the most of it and walk around nekkied tbh :P

i've finally got my life back under some semblance of control and have started reapplying everything i know worked in the past. normally i would say it takes 4-6months to start seeing real results but i have already started noticing regrowth on my hairline in the exact same place i noticed it prior to copping out due to life drama last year. i think this is because i know it's possible, i had already done a lot of work and despite everything, was working to get what i wanted, just in less than optimal ways.

the main points are to focus on posture because it deals with two major issues at once - stress and blood flow. if you're mindful of your posture you will naturally lower stress hormones (meditation has proven this to be the case) and by improving posture, we naturally decalcify and improve blood flow anyway

eat enough to be happy and healthy but don't let diet become an obsession that begins undermining your effort and generally make an effort to be active and energetic, without exhausting yourself.

gl gl :P

Is this all based on your n=1 experiment?

If not, how can you say so conclusively that correcting posture is the cure for mpb?

What about people who don’t lose hair...do they have outstanding posture?

 

[ExD]

Is this all based on your n=1 experiment?

If not, how can you say so conclusively that correcting posture is the cure for mpb?

What about people who don’t lose hair...do they have outstanding posture?

i don't think i mentioned cure once matey, so inferring conclusive data is sorta pointless when the whole post was based on subjective information

but, since you asked XD

i'd say the cure for hairloss is addressing whatever is causing chronic inflammation in the scalp, and if you think there is a one size fits all solution to this, i dunno what to tell you. people have been looking for it for ages, and they will continue to look, imo

addressing the whole kit and kaboodle is my advice. diet, posture, mental attitude, environment; looking for solutions, instead of problems, you know?

i know two people with severe scoliosis. ones been in a wheel chair since birth, the other is my potdealer and he can barely move his neck, let alone his spine. both have perfect heads of hair, but then we also know hair loss is genetic, so each body reacts to stress differently based on the environment they grew up in, so maybe they didn't have the neurotic tendencies or chronic mental stress i enjoyed during my teens, who knows.

all i'm saying is we need to alleviate that stress if we want to undo the damage caused, and posture is my number one recommendation because it deals with the mental issues, the physical issues and the circulation issues all at once, albeit slowly.

as far as a one size fits all cure, i'd say it comes down to pure massage, but people don't really consider this a cure, because it's too simple, straightforward and doesn't seem to produce results fast enough to warrant such a term, nor is it easy to capitalise on/market

 

[kayumochi]

Hey I've taken cyproheptadine a few times before, the stuff makes me feel so tired and I gain weight pretty fast on it too, I'm a bit disinclined considering I have to study and feeling sluggish all the time would make life quite hard.

Cypro makes me feel that way too but only if I take the full 4mg dose. 0.5 mg in the morning and another 0.5 mg in the evening does not have that effect.

 

[Prosper]

as far as a one size fits all cure, i'd say it comes down to pure massage, but people don't really consider this a cure, because it's too simple, straightforward and doesn't seem to produce results fast enough to warrant such a term, nor is it easy to capitalise on/market

I did some digging on this last night. You are probably aware of this study already, but for everyone else here's something for your consideration:

https://www.omicsonline.org/detumes...r-natural-hair-regrowth-2155-9554.1000138.pdf

TLDR: daily hard scalp massage leads to regrowth of almost all hairs in most subjects in just a few months.

To talk shortly about my own case, my hairline has been receeding increasingly for the past couple of years. A thing I hadn't previously connected to this is that during this time I have also been chewing hard gum and foods in an attempt to increase facial aesthetics by affecting the shape of maxilla & mandible. I have previously concluded that chewing with a bite that is at least mildly recessed is dysfunctional in the sense that less strain is placed on the masseters and more on the muscles around the temporalis. This has lead to unfavourable hypertrophy & muscle stiffness around the temporalis. The area is thick and very sore.

Now what is interesting is that by looking at the major veins of the skull

it becomes apparent that the blood that is supplied to most of the scalp first has to travel across the temporal area. Note that:

1) The temporal artery branches off to two major veins that travel to the forehead and the vertex

2) The occipital area has its own designated artery

To demonstrate the significance of these two points, look at the typical progression of MPB:

The areas that never go bald are precisely the ones located around the temporalis & occipital arteries. Likewise, balding seems to begin from the temples and the vertex where bloodflow is the weakest to begin with. In advanced cases of MPB only the follicles near the major scalp arteries receive sufficient blood flow for hair maintenance.


As for the DHT theory of balding, it is partly true, but not necessarily for the right reasons. Even though the balding hair follicles always have high DHT concentrations, hormonal DHT levels in itself should not be particularly relevant. What IS relevant is that DHT increases only in follicles with lessened circulation and temperature. This seems to be reversable. Once proper circulation is re-established by daily massage of the thick and sore areas of the scalp, DHT levels in the follicle should fall, allowing regrowth to begin.

As for the difference between diffuse thinning vs MPB, I suspect that scalp-wide thinning is caused by overall weakened bloodflow via the neck, whereas receeding hairline with otherwise healthy hairs is caused by stiff temporalis ( perhaps frontalis too). It seems reasonable to assume that the former is caused by posture & circulation problems in the neck and the shoulders, the latter by chronic tension and circulation problems in the scalp muscles. The way you react to stress may therefore determine what kind of balding you get. Some tense their shoulders, others their jaws.

So in short, yes, massaging the scalp hard daily and fixing body posture should improve and potentially even completely reverse most cases of balding in a matter of months.

 

[ExD]

hey @Prosper

ya that DT study was what got me interested in really applying massage. it led me to mechanotherapy studies in japan that demonstrated massage altering gene expression, turning off inflammation and stimulating angiogenesis even in deeply scarred tissue

i think your point on jaw vs shoulder tension is very interesting. the atlantoaxial joint will actually reposition and elongate the jaw when it's in correct symmetry with the rest of the spine because the muscles required to engage it relax the jaw, and i have a very defined jawline, but a lot of tension in my lower neck, so much so that i'm focusing on loosening it up more than anything else right now because moving it actually feels/sounds like there is gravel or something between the joints xD

as well as the physical benefits of massage, i think it's important to remember that it also relieves mental stress, and contributes to that sense of proactivity that we all want when dealing with a problem like this, so it hits multiple areas. my biggest problem with massage was the time investment - it's no problem once you get into the routine of it, but it's more and more difficult to maintain as real life and other stressers begin to compete for attention and that desire for instant gratification.

it's also difficult to confer just how beneficial it is when most people will assume "if it's that easy, we'd all do it" when there's nothing easy about it, which is why most people won't do it

 

[raypeatclips]

@ExD Do you have any before and after pictures of your hair improvements?

 

[ExD]

@ExD Do you have any before and after pictures of your hair improvements?

no i've had a buzzcut for years and years. without a really high def camera it's very difficult to demonstrate any cosmetic difference without growing my hair out and comparing before/after shots, which in itself is difficult since i never went out of my way to take bad looking hair pics before this time hhaa

i actually do have some pics on my old computer that i took for before/after comparison at very close distance (with buzz, obv), but they aren't high def due to my phone being the best pic quality i can get, and while i started getting progress 5-6months after taking the pics, i quit massaging at that point and my hair took a backseat to everything else, so progress became redundant during the last 12 months

i did see some good progress pics in another thread at one point. i think the user was benjaminbutton