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Without good fruit available would you eat starches?

MidBicep

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Dec 12, 2020
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I'm in a situation where milk is still not an option for my nutrition, so I rely on Greek yogurt and cheese, which have nowhere near the micronutrients of milk but they get the job done.
I used to squeeze over 1kg of oranges into juice but lately everything at the supermarket is green and sour. Watermelons are also not ripe yet. So I'm basically out of fruit.
I've worked around the liquids with coffee and sugared cola, but the nutrition of those is nowhere near OJ.
Now I've experimented in the past with potatoes and they are a bad food for me and all around troublesome, from preparation to digestion.
So the question is, would you rather have insufficient daily micronutrient intakes yet feel good and possibly get a deficiency down the line (or maybe not if you're not consuming starches and antinutrients), or would you rather risk feeling worse and have a cronometer page that looks good on paper?
I'm in the first category.
 

Nemo

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Jul 8, 2019
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I used to squeeze over 1kg of oranges into juice but lately everything at the supermarket is green and sour. Watermelons are also not ripe yet. So I'm basically out of fruit.
I've worked around the liquids with coffee and sugared cola, but the nutrition of those is nowhere near OJ.

How about marmalade? How about orange juice powder? How about canned or frozen fruit?
 
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I'm in a situation where milk is still not an option for my nutrition, so I rely on Greek yogurt and cheese, which have nowhere near the micronutrients of milk but they get the job done.
I used to squeeze over 1kg of oranges into juice but lately everything at the supermarket is green and sour. Watermelons are also not ripe yet. So I'm basically out of fruit.
I've worked around the liquids with coffee and sugared cola, but the nutrition of those is nowhere near OJ.
Now I've experimented in the past with potatoes and they are a bad food for me and all around troublesome, from preparation to digestion.
So the question is, would you rather have insufficient daily micronutrient intakes yet feel good and possibly get a deficiency down the line (or maybe not if you're not consuming starches and antinutrients), or would you rather risk feeling worse and have a cronometer page that looks good on paper?
I'm in the first category.
I personally would not drive myself crazy trying to make it look good on paper. This site is about anti-aging, good metabolism and avoiding stress, so getting the PUFA's gone is top priority and more than half of the battle. If you wanna take off a few pounds ditch the starches. If you wanna gain some weight eat more fat. Don't drive yourself crazy trying to be perfectly "Peaty" that is not the point Ray Peat has ever made, even he eats bacon! It is more about how to undo the bad choices we make and making the better choice between two evils. Ray Peat has presented the science as to WHY, when there is a glass of milk and a plate of vegetables in front of him, he would choose the milk. In the end all food is a gift of life, unfortunately with some foods expecting something in return.
 

MidBicep

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How about marmalade? How about orange juice powder? How about canned or frozen fruit?
Last time I tried store bought marmalade it messed me up and my orange peels are green so making homemade is out of the question.
I have never seen or heard of orange juice powder and frozen fruit is not a thing here.
I also just checked and the supermarket might have canned pineapple on pineapple juice, almost everything else is in HFCS. This might be worth a shot.
 
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Last time I tried store bought marmalade it messed me up and my orange peels are green so making homemade is out of the question.
I have never seen or heard of orange juice powder and frozen fruit is not a thing here.
I also just checked and the supermarket might have canned pineapple on pineapple juice, almost everything else is in HFCS. This might be worth a shot.
Being that vitamin C is heat sensitive, anything like marmalade and canned fruit would not have any vitamin C. Your best bet would be fresh pressed juices or making lemonade out of lemons. Last night I juiced a pineapple and mixed it with an equal part of water, added in some fresh squeezed lemon and some sugar and it felt and tasted amazing. I feel it is a better way to go since pineapple is so fibrous and can be problematic. I have also been buying frozen fruit. Because they are frozen right when picked the have so much more vitamin content than fresh fruit. The fresh fruits just sit in the store too long.
 

MidBicep

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Being that vitamin C is heat sensitive, anything like marmalade and canned fruit would not have any vitamin C. Your best bet would be fresh pressed juices or making lemonade out of lemons. Last night I juiced a pineapple and mixed it with an equal part of water, added in some fresh squeezed lemon and some sugar and it felt and tasted amazing. I feel it is a better way to go since pineapple is so fibrous and can be problematic. I have also been buying frozen fruit. Because they are frozen right when picked the have so much more vitamin content than fresh fruit. The fresh fruits just sit in the store too long.
Last time I drank lemonade I broke my personal record of times I went to the toilet in a day lol. Honestly I had been quite a while with no vitamin C source in my diet so I don't think it will be a problem until good fruit is available again. I might buy some fresh squeezed OJ once a week though just to be safe.
 
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Last time I drank lemonade I broke my personal record of times I went to the toilet in a day lol. Honestly I had been quite a while with no vitamin C source in my diet so I don't think it will be a problem until good fruit is available again. I might buy some fresh squeezed OJ once a week though just to be safe.
Ha! Ha! I think pineapple might put you right back on that pot :D
 

boris

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Oct 1, 2019
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@MidBicep There is no good ripe fruit for me where I live. The fruit that is available ripe, I am allergic to. There is one good orange juice brand, but it's expensive. So I've been eating lots of homemade tortillas lately from nixtamalized masa harina and feeling great. It's especially good when you can't drink milk, because it has the same amount of calcium as milk. [edit: oh, I see you can eat cheese, but it also gives some niacin. I can't drink quarts of milk either, so I usually have some meat or fish with my tortillas for nutrients]


Ray Peat: "...the chinese and central and south americans many years ago, the chinese probably 3000 years ago, discovered that if you cook a grain in lye or lime, oxidized calcium compound or potassium hydroxide from ashes of vegetation, those caustic alkalis digest the grain, destroy the things that make it indigestable, turn the potentially toxic balance of amino acids that could create pellagra if you had a corn based diet for example, convert those into vitamins so that tortillas are very rich as a source of calcium and niacin and very easy to digest because the corn and the proteins are partially digested already. So nixtamalized corn, the kind used in hominy tamales and tortillas, is not like any of the other grain starches."
 

MidBicep

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@MidBicep There is no good ripe fruit for me where I live. The fruit that is available ripe, I am allergic to. There is one good orange juice brand, but it's expensive. So I've been eating lots of homemade tortillas lately from nixtamalized masa harina and feeling great. It's especially good when you can't drink milk, because it has the same amount of calcium as milk. [edit: oh, I see you can eat cheese, but it also gives some niacin. I can't drink quarts of milk either, so I usually have some meat or fish with my tortillas for nutrients]


Ray Peat: "...the chinese and central and south americans many years ago, the chinese probably 3000 years ago, discovered that if you cook a grain in lye or lime, oxidized calcium compound or potassium hydroxide from ashes of vegetation, those caustic alkalis digest the grain, destroy the things that make it indigestable, turn the potentially toxic balance of amino acids that could create pellagra if you had a corn based diet for example, convert those into vitamins so that tortillas are very rich as a source of calcium and niacin and very easy to digest because the corn and the proteins are partially digested already. So nixtamalized corn, the kind used in hominy tamales and tortillas, is not like any of the other grain starches."
I see, that's good to hear. Ironically, I'm concerned about B1, magnesium and potassium. I get a bit of magnesium through coffee and a bit of potassium from the coke but I really want to find a sustainable way to bump up the B1 again. The OJ was taking care of quite a few needs.
Pic related is my main source of nutrients except from coffee and coke since cronometer doesn't have the values for them I think. My calories are way higher obviously.
 

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jet9

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@MidBicep There is no good ripe fruit for me where I live. The fruit that is available ripe, I am allergic to. There is one good orange juice brand, but it's expensive. So I've been eating lots of homemade tortillas lately from nixtamalized masa harina and feeling great. It's especially good when you can't drink milk, because it has the same amount of calcium as milk. [edit: oh, I see you can eat cheese, but it also gives some niacin. I can't drink quarts of milk either, so I usually have some meat or fish with my tortillas for nutrients]


Ray Peat: "...the chinese and central and south americans many years ago, the chinese probably 3000 years ago, discovered that if you cook a grain in lye or lime, oxidized calcium compound or potassium hydroxide from ashes of vegetation, those caustic alkalis digest the grain, destroy the things that make it indigestable, turn the potentially toxic balance of amino acids that could create pellagra if you had a corn based diet for example, convert those into vitamins so that tortillas are very rich as a source of calcium and niacin and very easy to digest because the corn and the proteins are partially digested already. So nixtamalized corn, the kind used in hominy tamales and tortillas, is not like any of the other grain starches."
Do you tolerate masa harina better than other starches (rice, tubers, grains, etc)? What foods are your staples besides masa harina?
 

boris

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Do you tolerate masa harina better than other starches (rice, tubers, grains, etc)? What foods are your staples besides masa harina?

I think so, but I haven't eaten rice and potatoes for over a year. Rice better than potatoes (I get allergic reactions to some variants). I love the masa, tastewise and for satiation it's as satisfying as bread, with almost none of the downsides. I also make cookies out of it, which I missed a lot. I have zero problems digesting it. My main carb sources are now masa harina and orange juice. I tolerate milk very well now when I have no stress, but in stressfull situations the milk passes undigested for me and then causes painful gas. I drink about 2-3 tall coffees with milk (0,5-0,8L in total).

I usually put whatever protein I eat into a tortilla. Philly cheese steak with a tortilla instead of bread tastes amazing.
 
Last edited:

boris

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I see, that's good to hear. Ironically, I'm concerned about B1, magnesium and potassium. I get a bit of magnesium through coffee and a bit of potassium from the coke but I really want to find a sustainable way to bump up the B1 again. The OJ was taking care of quite a few needs.
Pic related is my main source of nutrients except from coffee and coke since cronometer doesn't have the values for them I think. My calories are way higher obviously.

Oh, yeah. I take B vitamins. It's just hard to get everything from natural foods here.
 

Lilac

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May 6, 2014
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I used to squeeze over 1kg of oranges into juice but lately everything at the supermarket is green and sour. Watermelons are also not ripe yet.


If you can afford it, perhaps try mail-ordering oranges from Florida. Years ago, I used to get some kind of generic "juice" oranges that were fantastic. And lately I have gotten Valencias delivered when they are in season. (The season is short and over.) But that juice is superb, and I have noticed elevated mood in the weeks when I drink it.

I have had two watermelons this year, one from Texas and one from Florida, and both were very sweet. (I seem to remember last year's crop was disappointing throughout the season, for almost all locations.) I suppose watermelons are hit-or-miss. Visit different markets and keep trying.
 

Jessie

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Jul 9, 2020
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My main carbs are OJ concentrate, fresh apple juice, masa harina, honey, and cane sugar. Occasionally I'll have some haagen dazs.

In my area orange juice concentrate is much sweeter then any of the "fresh"orange juices sold in stores. I've also found that organic apples ripen very well, and they can be pressed into juice very easily. Pink ladies, Galas, Fujis, and Honeycrisp are all good types.

I do believe the "organic" aspect is important though, because they don't put food-grade wax on the organic apples which slow the ripening process.

Masa harina is definitely the king of starches. So easy to digest, it's the only starch that hasn't given me gas yet.
 

MidBicep

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If you can afford it, perhaps try mail-ordering oranges from Florida. Years ago, I used to get some kind of generic "juice" oranges that were fantastic. And lately I have gotten Valencias delivered when they are in season. (The season is short and over.) But that juice is superb, and I have noticed elevated mood in the weeks when I drink it.

I have had two watermelons this year, one from Texas and one from Florida, and both were very sweet. (I seem to remember last year's crop was disappointing throughout the season, for almost all locations.) I suppose watermelons are hit-or-miss. Visit different markets and keep trying.
I am not American lol.
Today I bought canned pineapple and peaches, I tried the pineapple and even with a few slices I had to rush to the toilet, so @Rinse & rePeat was right. Next up are the peaches but I wanna give my digestion a break so I might try those in the weekend.
If all else fails, cola and sugar will be my carbs. I remember Ray Peat saying that when no good fruit is available he would get half his calories from sugar.
 

OccamzRazer

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I'm in the first category.
I'm in the first category, too!

But have you considered maple syrup, molasses, or honey/other bee products? Lots of good micro's to be had here.
 

Birdie

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I think so, but I haven't eaten rice and potatoes for over a year. Rice better than potatoes (I get allergic reactions to some variants). I love the masa, tastewise and for satiation it's as satisfying as bread, with almost none of the downsides. I also make cookies out of it, which I missed a lot. I have zero problems digesting it. My main carb sources are now masa harina and orange juice. I tolerate milk very well now when I have no stress, but in stressfull situations the milk passes undigested for me and then causes painful gas. I drink about 2-3 tall coffees with milk (0,5-0,8L in total).

I usually put whatever protein I eat into a tortilla. Philly cheese steak with a tortilla instead of bread tastes amazing.
@boris Could you give us your cookie recipe?
 

boris

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@boris Could you give us your cookie recipe?
I just mix the masa harina with sugar, butter/coconut oil and milk (+some baking soda and a pinch of salt) until I have something that resembles cookie dough :) and put in the oven at about 170-180° Celsius.

....I think I would normally add an egg in there, but I don't eat them at the moment.
 

Birdie

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I just mix the masa harina with sugar, butter/coconut oil and milk (+some baking soda and a pinch of salt) until I have something that resembles cookie dough :) and put in the oven at about 170-180° Celsius.

....I think I would normally add an egg in there, but I don't eat them at the moment.
Haha. I figured that's what you'd say. Some of this and some of that. I've used sweet rice flour and it's more complicated. I want to try this and seeing the way you do it is encouraging. thanks!
 
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@MidBicep There is no good ripe fruit for me where I live. The fruit that is available ripe, I am allergic to. There is one good orange juice brand, but it's expensive. So I've been eating lots of homemade tortillas lately from nixtamalized masa harina and feeling great. It's especially good when you can't drink milk, because it has the same amount of calcium as milk. [edit: oh, I see you can eat cheese, but it also gives some niacin. I can't drink quarts of milk either, so I usually have some meat or fish with my tortillas for nutrients]


Ray Peat: "...the chinese and central and south americans many years ago, the chinese probably 3000 years ago, discovered that if you cook a grain in lye or lime, oxidized calcium compound or potassium hydroxide from ashes of vegetation, those caustic alkalis digest the grain, destroy the things that make it indigestable, turn the potentially toxic balance of amino acids that could create pellagra if you had a corn based diet for example, convert those into vitamins so that tortillas are very rich as a source of calcium and niacin and very easy to digest because the corn and the proteins are partially digested already. So nixtamalized corn, the kind used in hominy tamales and tortillas, is not like any of the other grain starches."
Boris am I missing something? My masa harina says it has 6% calcium 1/4 cup and my 8 ounce glass of milk has 30%?
 
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