Wim Hof Vs Buteyko

m_arch

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\ How much are you doing the recovery breathing?

M_arch, I wonder if it would be helpful to do capnometer readings an hour or two later and if the results of a Buteyko exercise would register then? Or maybe it would be good to take a capnometer reading at the end of each day, and see if a day that you did a lot of Buteyko exercises made a difference? Or maybe if a lot of physical exercise made a difference? (Enjoyable physical exercise makes me feel really good. So I suspect that it's doing good things for my CO2 levels, even though I have no way of measuring that.)

Artour then says, "The situation with the application of breathing devices (such as the Frolov breathing or the DIY breathing device) is different since the practicing person has to have large diaphragmatic inhalations and exhalations, while the capnometer can be used to measure CO2 inside the breathing device or near the place where air leaves the device. In this application (e.g., for the Frolov breathing device therapy), the results will show real CO2 values in the container at the end of exhalations and etCO2 monitoring and capnography waveforms can be used as biofeedback." M_arch, I think that this is really interesting, that Artour highly recommends the capnometer as a biofeedback device for the breathslim or frolov device. If you do any experimentation with this, I will be very interested to hear about your readings and results.

I think that the oximeter/capnometer and the control pause are measuring different things. I think that the CP measures respiratory strength. Athletes will automatically have a high CP.

I do recovery breathing whenever I remember. I haven't been focused on it, more just using it to see what happens to my co2 and o2 readings.

That's an interesting way to look at it! Although I have been into sports a lot of my life (and have a low heart rate to prove it), and I would consider myself to have decent respiratory health. My girlfriend who has suffered from asthma has the same CP as me (around 10 seconds). Mine is only slightly better, around 12 or 15 seconds at best.
Although I may have 'cheated' and been a chest breather most of my life, when I first read about buteyko I noticed I mouth breathed at night which is a big no-no.

I have a frolov device but don't often use it. I find it very difficult and uncomfortable to breathe from to be honest - perhaps this is due to chest breathing?
Interestingly I can exercise relatively easily while nose breathing (but i'm guessing you can still chest breathe while nose breathing?). Maybe you know something about this?
The frolov device does sound interesting, I think I will try it out some more.
 

tara

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perhaps this is due to chest breathing?
I think I used to do a lot of chest breathing; now I only catch myself at it occasionally.
I found it surprisingly quick and easy to retrain with mechanical aid.
 

Pointless

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If Wim Hof raises cortisol and adrenaline, can Buteyko also do the same thing? One may be hyperventilation, and the other slowed breathing, but there seems to be a lot in common physiologically in depriving the body of oxygen in a controlled way (someone with more knowledge of the physiology please chime in, but it seems that the exact physiology going on is pretty murky from everything I've read). Have there been blood tests done on this? This raises the specter that Buteyko might not be Peat-friendly. I remember reading an article where Ray Peat says that he doesn't agree on Buteyko on a lot of things including slowing the rate of breathing. If it raises metabolism, this might not matter. Does anyone get warming effects or increased heart rate from Buteyko?

I tried Wim Hof method. It's extremely difficult, and I was never able to make my body temperature budge, even exerting a lot of effort in doing a lot of rounds or adding cold showers. Buteyko I don't think is affecting my body temperature, either. What always helps me is to breathe as deeply and slowly as possible. I can prolong my breath to about 55 seconds, and doing this for about 12 minutes can raise my temperature a solid .4 to .5 degrees. I slow my breathing until there is a physiological urge to breathe and sometimes I prolong it a bit longer. I guess this would make me a deep breather.

I would like to see more objective results on this from a Ray Peat angle.
 

jyb

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No but cortisol and adrenalin are very potent anti inflammatory. So it makes sense that it helps with inflammation. But in the long run also very estrogenic. @jyb

I don't think the aim of such techniques is to chronically change stress hormones or the immune system. But hey, I don't know much about it so if you show me that they become all sick and estrogenic long term, I'll have a better opinion. But to claim that this is necessarily happening is, in my opinion, making a lot of assumptions.
 

Pointless

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I don't think the aim of such techniques is to chronically change stress hormones or the immune system. But hey, I don't know much about it so if you show me that they become all sick and estrogenic long term, I'll have a better opinion. But to claim that this is necessarily happening is, in my opinion, making a lot of assumptions.

I absolutely do think the aim of these techniques is to alter stress hormones long-term. My question (and I think everyone else's) is how it permanently affects the metabolism. Can anyone provide data on how it alters body temperature, pulse, estrogen, serotonin, CO2, etc?

I just did my deep breathing for 12 minutes, and I raised my body temperature from 97.4 to 97.6. I think it could've been a bigger change, but I did some deep breathing last night and as I went about my day this morning. I don't see any reason that this would be a transient increase that results in a long-term decrease because deep breathing is recognized as anti-stress.

Anyone else have any similar data? Any anecdotes about whether their Buteyko exercises have been good for their metabolism? Buteyko and Wim Hof walking in board shorts in the snow seems to be all we're going on here. Can anyone increase their metabolism with these methods?
 

m_arch

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I remember reading an article where Ray Peat says that he doesn't agree on Buteyko on a lot of things including slowing the rate of breathing. If it raises metabolism, this might not matter. Does anyone get warming effects or increased heart rate from Buteyko?\.

That's an article i'd be interested in reading! Any chance you can dig it up and post a link?
 

m_arch

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from generative energy pg 78 by ray peat:

"besides darkness, hypoxia and overload stress (which is relative hypoxia, in a sense) are the main things which damage mitochondria." (i'm assuming overload stress = breathless exercise)
"both living at a high elevation and having high thyroid function increases the quantity of mitochondria in cells, and this increase appears to be fairly permanent. pre-treatment with thyroid hormone or with a time at high altitude increases the ability to resist stress.
living at high elevation or having high thyroid function also increases the vascularity of tissues, that is, the number of capillaries per unit of tissue, and increase the quantity of blood in tissue, protecting against hypoxia."

living at elevation for a few months to increase your buteyko control pause for a biohack anyone?
 

tara

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@Pointless
I just did my deep breathing for 12 minutes, and I raised my body temperature from 97.4 to 97.6. I think it could've been a bigger change, but I did some deep breathing last night and as I went about my day this morning. I don't see any reason that this would be a transient increase that results in a long-term decrease because deep breathing is recognized as anti-stress.

I would guess that by slowing down your breathing to just over one breath per minute, even with deep/full breathing you are probably reducing the volume of air you are breathing/minute, and so get increased CO2 levels from this technique, just as Buteyko method accomplishes by breathing shallowly. I expect there are some advantages to each method, but that the central effects - increased CO2, improved oxygen delivery, reduced hypoxia - are similar.

I had a hunt on Rakhimov's site, but couldn't find the page with studies related to Buteyko - he's rearranged since I was reading it regularly, so I don't know if it's removed or just not where I've thought to look yet.

My hunch is that there is a possibility of getting so focussed on reducing breathing/increasing CP that one does this at the expense of general metabolism, but that there is almost certainly scope for most chronic hyperventilators (probably a significant portion of population, esp. sick people) to increase metabolism at least somewhat and helpfully. I think there are situations where it could cause more trouble than benefit.
 

m_arch

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i've come to the same conclusions as you tara.

People can raise CP at the expense of metabolism. So as Ray said, both metabolism* and living at altitude* (or for our sake, buteyko/similar breathing which is kind of the same thing but doesn't require altitude) are the most beneficial things for our ability to reduce stress.

Thus the optimal is not to raise CP, but to maintain a high metabolism of 37 deg. c. morning temps (or high ETCO2 readings) and at the same time raise CP as high as you can get it.

I won't recommend monitoring heart rate as an indicator of metabolism while raising the CP, because increased CO2 lowers heart rate.

---------------
*metabolism aka creating CO2 is relatively straight forward:
i'd suggest getting a DNA test (this was more helpful to me than blood tests. probably more helpful unless you have an acute condition) if you're not intuitive to see whats going on with your body, because context is so important. Some people won't be able to handle a high carb diet and might to better on higher saturated fat and ketones, some people may be actually lactose intolerant, some people won't easily achieve a higher metabolism, and some people achieve a high metabolism easily but have increased demand for nutrients like liver and oysters.

reduce PUFA intake + eat more carbs + supplements = higher metabolism
balance this against increased nutrient demands (eat liver, oysters, check cronometer)

---------------
*control pause + buteyko breathing / living at altitude / respiratory strength aka retaining circulating CO2 is not so straight forward for me yet.
ray says that is has similar effects of thyroid; increases the number of capillaries per unit of tissue, and increase the quantity of blood in tissue.

Based of buteyko research you need to nose breath 24/7 (while sleeping too) and then perform breathing exercises like buteyko breathing, frolov device, breath slim, paper bag breathing, etc... as long as they are causing air hunger. Probably small bouts of 10-15 minutes, 4x a day is best.
It seems using a device like frolov, breath slim or paper bag is better to advance and also train diaphragmatic breathing.

Buteyko research says exercise is good if nose breathing only, however the jury is undecided on this from a metabolism point of view. Probably too much stress depending on the type of exercie.

Ray hints that living at altitude for a time will have the same effects as getting used to air hunger, which i'd agree with logically. I wonder if buteyko has looked into this.
----------------

I've often had low white blood cell count - i wonder if this is related to hypoxia?

do you think saying buteyko breathing is really the same as living at altitude?
happy for everyone to weigh in with their opinions
 
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Xisca

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Depends what means breathe less!
For me, it means:
- imitate high altitude
- imitate exercising reasonably without having to open your mouth.
 

Xisca

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I absolutely do think the aim of these techniques is to alter stress hormones long-term.
Yes and no.
Yes but what is altering?
You need stress hormones to react whever it is necessary. AND you need to have your hormones go down afterward.

So, the point is to better resilience, the capacity to have hormones adapt to the present situation.
Gentle ups and downs like waves, and stand tempests when necessary.
 

Heidi

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What always helps me is to breathe as deeply and slowly as possible. I can prolong my breath to about 55 seconds, and doing this for about 12 minutes can raise my temperature a solid .4 to .5 degrees. I slow my breathing until there is a physiological urge to breathe and sometimes I prolong it a bit longer. I guess this would make me a deep breather.

I would like to see more objective results on this from a Ray Peat angle.
I wonder why number of breaths one takes per minute is not used as a reliable type of measurement? I know that in general lighter breathing is better than deeper breathing. But you are doing a super slow breathing, so it is different than (and probably increases CO2 more than) just regular deep breathing.

I was wondering what got you to work on prolonging your breath? Have you done it for a long time? Also, how many times do you breath per minute when you aren't going for really long breaths? I have noticed that when I reduce and settle my breathing, I naturally breath about 6 breaths per minute. And probably about 5 breaths per minute when I'm actively trying to reduce breathing. When I tried to see how slow I could go, I was able to do 2 breaths per minute. But I didn't try to sustain it for very long, as I was just testing it out. Next time I'll try sustaining it for a bit and see how I feel.

When I first heard of Buteyko’s ideas, I saw the systemic importance of carbon dioxide, but I wasn’t much impressed by his idea of intentionally breathing less.
I would say that you are breathing less. You're just breathing less in a different way that is working better for you. And maybe it's a better way for others, too? I wonder if other folks would get similar results as you with raising body temps? Or what a capnometer reading would show. m_arch are you interested in trying this?
 

Ahanu

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Thus the optimal is not to raise CP, but to maintain a high metabolism of 37 deg.
I ve come to the same conclusion
 

Heidi

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Thus the optimal is not to raise CP, but to maintain a high metabolism of 37 deg. c. morning temps (or high ETCO2 readings) and at the same time raise CP as high as you can get it.
Me too. I feel the same way.

The tricky part for me is knowing how much I can stress myself to raise my CP. Everything that raises CP causes a degree of stress. For me a gentle approach improves breathing and increases CO2, but doesn't raise the CP very significantly. Things that increase CP are using the breathslim in a vigorous way, exercising while breathing through my nose, breath holds, steps, etc. Raising the CP really reminds me of when I use to run. I bet my CP was really good then. It was a lot of effort to build up my aerobic capacity, and then it had to be regularly maintained. It seems like some people have more of a natural capacity for raising their CP without so much stress.

m_arch, I really appreciate your posts on this thread and the Control Pause Question thread. I'm glad that you got the capnometer and have been thoroughly pursuing this issue. Also, that's a beautiful picture that you're using for your user ID.
 

Heidi

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I just did my deep breathing for 12 minutes, and I raised my body temperature from 97.4 to 97.6. I think it could've been a bigger change, but I did some deep breathing last night and as I went about my day this morning. I don't see any reason that this would be a transient increase that results in a long-term decrease because deep breathing is recognized as anti-stress.
So I did some prolonged slow breathing this morning. I hesitate to call it deep breathing because deep breathing without going this slow feels different. My exhales were longer than my inhales. I used the oximeter and my results were similar to the 10 second inhale, 10 second hold, 10 second exhale, 10 second hold breathing pattern. Today the oximeter fluctuated steadily up and down from 98 to 94. (You can read about people's experience with this breathing pattern starting with this post here: Relearning How To Breathe And Increasing CO2 )

I did the slow prolonged breathing until my head started to hurt. (I didn't get a headache, but might have if I continued.) I took a break and then did the other breathing for a comparison. I would put these two breathing patterns in the same category. My CP was good after doing them. But they are a strenuous type of breathing. I'm not sure about how much I want to do them regularly for that reason. Next time I try it, I'll check my temperature and see if it increases. My pulse fluctuated in its usual range.
 

Pointless

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I wonder why number of breaths one takes per minute is not used as a reliable type of measurement? I know that in general lighter breathing is better than deeper breathing. But you are doing a super slow breathing, so it is different than (and probably increases CO2 more than) just regular deep breathing.

I think maybe number of breaths is not a good indicator because it's hugely susceptible to placebo and general variation throughout the day. Just measuring your breaths will automatically change your rate... If I get stressed, sometimes I notice that I'm unconsciously holding my breath after exhale. I've been doing this less often, lately, while applying more Peat principles to health.

Since I slow my breathing down to a feeling of slight air hunger, I'm sure that it is increasing my CO2.

I was wondering what got you to work on prolonging your breath? Have you done it for a long time? Also, how many times do you breath per minute when you aren't going for really long breaths? I have noticed that when I reduce and settle my breathing, I naturally breath about 6 breaths per minute. And probably about 5 breaths per minute when I'm actively trying to reduce breathing. When I tried to see how slow I could go, I was able to do 2 breaths per minute. But I didn't try to sustain it for very long, as I was just testing it out. Next time I'll try sustaining it for a bit and see how I feel.

I don't do this often. Sometimes I'm just not up for it, and it's a struggle. Loads of magnesium chloride topically helps with that. Then I can make my breaths really slow and deep. Anti-cholinergics help, too. I take Loratidine for allergies, but I have some cyproheptadine on order. I encourage anyone to experiment with more magnesium if you're having trouble with the breath. Also, taking methylene blue at night, my sinus airways are very open and I wake up breathing through my nose, which has been a lifelong thing for me.

As for how I got into it, I've experimented with various things. I was struggling much more with my Crohn's disease about 3 years back, and I noticed that making my breath as slow and deep as possible put my symptoms into remission for about 24 hours. At that point, nothing was working, so I kept coming back to that to see what other kinds of benefits I could get from it, though I had some trouble replicating the anti-inflammatory/parasympathetic calming effects I got that one night. I started to get into metabolism and bioenergetics a few months ago, so I tested various breathing techniques like Wim Hof and deep and slow breathing for increased body temperature. Making my breaths as slow and deep as possible have been the only thing that increased my temp.

I would say that you are breathing less. You're just breathing less in a different way that is working better for you. And maybe it's a better way for others, too? I wonder if other folks would get similar results as you with raising body temps? Or what a capnometer reading would show. m_arch are you interested in trying this?

Sorry about the bad formatting. I was replying from my phone and trying to copy and paste from another website, which is always a pain on the tiny screen. The quote you were referring to was from Ray Peat.

Your capnometer results are interesting, but I wonder can you increase your body temperature, or is my metabolism just peculiar? Since I have seem to have breathing problems, CO2 might be a bottleneck in oxidative production for me.
 
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Heidi

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As for how I got into it, I've experimented with various things. I was struggling much more with my Crohn's disease about 3 years back, and I noticed that making my breath as slow and deep as possible put my symptoms into remission for about 24 hours. At that point, nothing was working, so I kept coming back to that to see what other kinds of benefits I could get from it, though I had some trouble replicating the anti-inflammatory/parasympathetic calming effects I got that one night. I started to get into metabolism and bioenergetics a few months ago, so I tested various breathing techniques like Wim Hof and deep and slow breathing for increased body temperature. Making my breaths as slow and deep as possible have been the only thing that increased my temp.
That's great that the slow, deep breathing helped your Crohn's. Sometimes I get exceptionally good parasympathetic calming effects from just reducing breathing and relaxing over a period of time. Those deep calm states are really nice. I'll let you know if I get a temperature increase from the slow breathing. Maybe someone else will try it, too.
Sorry about the bad formatting. I was replying from my phone and trying to copy and paste from another website, which is always a pain on the tiny screen. The quote you were referring to was from Ray Peat.
Thanks for clearing that up. It seems obvious now that it was a Ray Peat quote.
Your capnometer results are interesting, but I wonder can you increase your body temperature, or is my metabolism just peculiar?
m_arch is the one with the capnometer. But maybe you intended this part of what you wrote for him?
 

m_arch

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I would say that you are breathing less. You're just breathing less in a different way that is working better for you. And maybe it's a better way for others, too? I wonder if other folks would get similar results as you with raising body temps? Or what a capnometer reading would show. m_arch are you interested in trying this?

Ah sorry I missed your message. Do you mean using the capnometer to measure before and after ETCO2 with a reduced breathing technique?
I mostly do the 'recovery breathing' technique, and it does lead to increased ETCO2 afterwards but it doesn't last long. It's not a huge increase either, maybe from 5.7 to 6.4 lasting for 5 minutes or so after I've finished.

I definitely feel the delayed onset muscle soreness aspects the recovery breathing website talks about. I recover from tennis a lot faster! It must get rid of lactic acid fast.
 

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