Wim Hof Vs Buteyko

[m_arch]

Me too. I feel the same way.

The tricky part for me is knowing how much I can stress myself to raise my CP. Everything that raises CP causes a degree of stress. For me a gentle approach improves breathing and increases CO2, but doesn't raise the CP very significantly. Things that increase CP are using the breathslim in a vigorous way, exercising while breathing through my nose, breath holds, steps, etc. Raising the CP really reminds me of when I use to run. I bet my CP was really good then. It was a lot of effort to build up my aerobic capacity, and then it had to be regularly maintained. It seems like some people have more of a natural capacity for raising their CP without so much stress.

m_arch, I really appreciate your posts on this thread and the Control Pause Question thread. I'm glad that you got the capnometer and have been thoroughly pursuing this issue. Also, that's a beautiful picture that you're using for your user ID.

Thanks Heidi! Although its not very peat-like, with the cold and all :P
It seems like a huge issue in terms of human health, so I've been pursuing it a lot. It like they say, we can go 30 days without eating, 2 days without drinking, but no longer usually than 3 minutes without breathing... And I've always had some strange breathing patterns... i.e. I tend to fog up a room at night, I was definitely a mouth breather growing up, and I've often recovered slowly from sports (which I think is due to lactic acid build up which co2 breathing destroys!)

In the new buteyko thread I've posted, there is supposed to be a correlation with ETCO2 (or metabolism) and CP / MP. It doesn't always seem the case though.
In my situation it seems the maximum pause is closer to being correct than the control pause.

However if buteyko is right and there is a correlation, doing pro-metabolic things like taking aspirin and MB and OJ and all those kind of things should work to increase, if not the CP, then the maximum pause.

It seems CP and maximum pause can be influenced by a lot of shady factors - so i'd say metabolism and ETCO2 are a better measurement.
However like in my post above, there are noticeable benefits to flooding your body if only temporarily with CO2. Bag breathing or recovery breathing should be adequate to do this.
In fact, recovery breathing sounds perfect to do after exercise.

 

[m_arch]

Your capnometer results are interesting, but I wonder can you increase your body temperature, or is my metabolism just peculiar? Since I have seem to have breathing problems, CO2 might be a bottleneck in oxidative production for me.

Without using a thermometer I can tell my body temperature increases a lot using reduced breathing techniques, my hands and feet get warmer and sometimes i'll get some forehead sweat going - and it corresponds to an increase in metabolic rate as measured by end tidal co2.


I'm also finding keeping my core warmer (with clothing) to be an interesting technique to improve blood flow to my extremities / alertness. I think it would be anti-stress.

 

[Heidi]

Ah sorry I missed your message. Do you mean using the capnometer to measure before and after ETCO2 with a reduced breathing technique?
I mostly do the 'recovery breathing' technique, and it does lead to increased ETCO2 afterwards but it doesn't last long. It's not a huge increase either, maybe from 5.7 to 6.4 lasting for 5 minutes or so after I've finished.

I definitely feel the delayed onset muscle soreness aspects the recovery breathing website talks about. I recover from tennis a lot faster! It must get rid of lactic acid fast.

I've been curious about what the capnometer would show from the reduced breathing techniques of very long, slow breathing like what Pointless is doing or the 10 second inhale, 10 second hold, 10 second exhale, 10 second hold breathing pattern. Both of those breathing patterns show pronounced drops on the oximeter. So I was curious what you would find with the capnometer.

I have noticed that that I rarely get muscle soreness from exercise now. I think it's just due to better breathing in general and breathing through my nose while exercising. My breathing is terrible at work and sometimes I have delayed onset muscle soreness after working. It catches me by surprise because I just get low level exercise when working, but having to talk a lot and not being able to maintain an adequate CO2 level, occasionally causes the lactic acid to build up.

 

[m_arch]

I've been curious about what the capnometer would show from the reduced breathing techniques of very long, slow breathing like what Pointless is doing or the 10 second inhale, 10 second hold, 10 second exhale, 10 second hold breathing pattern. Both of those breathing patterns show pronounced drops on the oximeter. So I was curious what you would find with the capnometer.

I have noticed that that I rarely get muscle soreness from exercise now. I think it's just due to better breathing in general and breathing through my nose while exercising. My breathing is terrible at work and sometimes I have delayed onset muscle soreness after working. It catches me by surprise because I just get low level exercise when working, but having to talk a lot and not being able to maintain an adequate CO2 level, occasionally causes the lactic acid to build up.

Yeah that's interesting!

Well i'm giving it a go now

7am:
spO2 - 96
Heart rate - 63
ETCO2 - 6.0 % kPa

after:
sp2O2 - 97
heart rate - 59
ETCO2 - 5.4 % kPa

so this was the 10 sec in, 10 sec pause, 10 sec out, 10 sec pause. I had moments at the start where it would drop low to 94% spo2 during the inhale / hold. But after the exhale / hold it would often go up to 98% spo2.

I did feel warm doing this but overall it was a net decrease in ETCO2, and I don't feel so great after it.
I think breathing exercises are a very fine line balancing between stress responses. The 10 second holds after the exhales were difficult for me, probably too stressful. Someone else might get a net positive gain in ETCO2 but I sure didn't.

 

[Heidi]

Yeah that's interesting!

Well i'm giving it a go now

7am:
spO2 - 96
Heart rate - 63
ETCO2 - 6.0 % kPa

after:
sp2O2 - 97
heart rate - 59
ETCO2 - 5.4 % kPa

so this was the 10 sec in, 10 sec pause, 10 sec out, 10 sec pause. I had moments at the start where it would drop low to 94% spo2 during the inhale / hold. But after the exhale / hold it would often go up to 98% spo2.

I did feel warm doing this but overall it was a net decrease in ETCO2, and I don't feel so great after it.
I think breathing exercises are a very fine line balancing between stress responses. The 10 second holds after the exhales were difficult for me, probably too stressful. Someone else might get a net positive gain in ETCO2 but I sure didn't.

Thanks for testing this out. I totally agree about the fine line with the stress response.

I think that there may be lots of individual differences with which breathing exercises work for which people. This is an instance where your capnometer is very useful. My oximeter readings seem to indicate that it was good for me. My spO2 reading was slightly better after I did it. But I'm not really sure.

 

[Heidi]

but I wonder can you increase your body temperature

Without using a thermometer I can tell my body temperature increases a lot using reduced breathing techniques, my hands and feet get warmer and sometimes i'll get some forehead sweat going - and it corresponds to an increase in metabolic rate as measured by end tidal co2.

I'm also finding keeping my core warmer (with clothing) to be an interesting technique to improve blood flow to my extremities / alertness. I think it would be anti-stress.

I took my temperature before and after various breathing exercises today, including the long slow breathing and 10 second inhale, 10 second hold, 10 second exhale, 10 second hold breathing pattern. My temperature didn't change at all. Sometimes I feel increased energy/warmth in my hands and feet, but not so much today. Since I've been doing the reduced breathing, I've also been very attentive to keeping my core warm.

 

[tara]

I wonder why number of breaths one takes per minute is not used as a reliable type of measurement? I know that in general lighter breathing is better than deeper breathing. But you are doing a super slow breathing, so it is different than (and probably increases CO2 more than) just regular deep breathing.

Volume of breath can vary enormously.

So I did some prolonged slow breathing this morning. I hesitate to call it deep breathing because deep breathing without going this slow feels different. My exhales were longer than my inhales.

Some people say there are benefits in regularly putting the lungs through their full paces - ie expanding the fully. I like the idea of doing the long deep slow breathing for little while regularly as one of the techniques in the - hoping if I use it I won't lose it - but I don't think of it very often. For me the easiest time to think of doing it is while gentle walking.

Without using a thermometer I can tell my body temperature increases a lot using reduced breathing techniques, my hands and feet get warmer and sometimes i'll get some forehead sweat going - and it corresponds to an increase in metabolic rate as measured by end tidal co2.

I don't know if one can conclude from warmer hands and feet that core temps have increased - they may have, but couldn't it also just be a matter of the blood vessels relaxing under higher CO2 levels and bringing more circulation to the extremities?

 

[m_arch]

Volume of breath can vary enormously.


Some people say there are benefits in regularly putting the lungs through their full paces - ie expanding the fully. I like the idea of doing the long deep slow breathing for little while regularly as one of the techniques in the - hoping if I use it I won't lose it - but I don't think of it very often. For me the easiest time to think of doing it is while gentle walking.


I don't know if one can conclude from warmer hands and feet that core temps have increased - they may have, but couldn't it also just be a matter of the blood vessels relaxing under higher CO2 levels and bringing more circulation to the extremities?

True. Recovery breathing is still my favourite, because it's not so stressful. I can also easily push it a little harder if I want, say 12 second holds instead of ten.

I think better circulation itself is positive. But my etco2 also goes up doing these.

I also lay on my stomach and do crocodile breathing for the inhales to get as many benefits as possible out of the one thing. I feel my lower back get a work out from it! Core stabilisers woo yeah!

 

[tara]

I also lay on my stomach and do crocodile breathing for the inhales to get as many benefits as possible out of the one thing. I feel my lower back get a work out from it! Core stabilisers woo yeah!

Picture or description. :)

 

[m_arch]

Picture or description. :)

Basically try to breathe as much into your stomach as possible, and as little into your chest

 

[Heidi]

Some people say there are benefits in regularly putting the lungs through their full paces - ie expanding the fully. I like the idea of doing the long deep slow breathing for little while regularly as one of the techniques in the - hoping if I use it I won't lose it - but I don't think of it very often. For me the easiest time to think of doing it is while gentle walking.

Thanks Tara for giving me your perspective on this. Do you know more specifically who else recommends it?

Volume of breath can vary enormously.

I was thinking that measuring one's progress in terms of a bunch of other variables might have been inspiring and helpful. There are lots of breathing variables that could be measured and tracked, but I didn't think to note those things because the control pause was emphasized as the thing to measure.

 

[Ras]

Wim Hof Reddit AMA.

 

[griesburner]

yesterday was the first time i heard from Wim Hof. After all this thinking about Co2 i was even more confused to see that for many people it seems to work. From a Peat perspective it sounds like the worst thing you can do and i think that its very crazy and maybe dangerous too if someone isnt in the best health condition. On top of that, when i hear Wim Hof speaking of his breathing technique and how it works (i guess he says that through hyperventilation it oxygenates the body) the explanation doesnt seem to make any sense at all, cause all you do is lose massive amounts of Co2 and therefore no oxygen reaches the tissues (as i understand it).

But on the other side as i was thinking of this crazy technique i got my own theory why it COULD work, even if the explanation from Wim Hof doesnt make sense to me...

By doing this hyperventilating technique i guess the body is temporary less oxygenated what is not good. And the massive loss of Co2 i think is a major stress to the body. And if someone regulary blows off so much Co2 the body has to compensate that and upregulates the cellular Co2 generation. So maybe its like an pretty dangerous exercise but if you can handle it you can get good results?

Thats the best explanation i could give to myself on how it could work. Cause as i see it works for many people, they feel better and got better performances etc.

 

[Lenin]

I tried Hof's method, my temp went from 35.9ºC to 35.7ºC (fasted), then I toke a cold shower (in winter, 9ºC) and it felt pretty interesting, the beginning was traumatic for sure, but in a few seconds I wasn't feeling like the water was that unpleasant, and when I stopped bathing I wasn't feeling cold like when I ended a warm water shower, but rather like feeling hotter, when I toke my temp again: 36.3ºC
It's like if the compensations of the body made me rise my temperature significantly and then the ambient temperature didn't feel that cold at all, I was comfortably being nude for longer time.

 

[Hgreen56]

It's like if the compensations of the body made me rise my temperature significantly.

stress hormones.

 

[boris]

stress hormones.

Exactly. Wim Hof's much praised brown fat activation (Brown Fat | Wim Hof Method) happens under the influence of cortisol.

Stress could help activate brown fat
Glucocorticoids Acutely Increase Brown Adipose Tissue Activity in Humans, Revealing Species-Specific Differences in UCP-1 Regulation

 

[Lenin]

stress hormones.

Ok, but that's your explanation, I just reported facts and subjectives. To effectively be sure it's "stress hormones", you would need to measure all hormones before and after the cold shower.

 

[boris]

@Lenin

https://www.wimhofmethod.com/uploads/kcfinder/files/biology-now-chapter-22-Wim-Hof.pdf

Kox measured the levels of a stress hormone called cortisol in Hof's blood. Hof's blood after the ice, breathing, and meditation regimen contained far higher levels of cortisol than before.
...
Kox measured Hof's blood levels for hormones and cytokines. Kox then compared Hof's results to those of a control group of 112 healthy volunteers who had previously taken the same test. To the scientists' surprise, as soon as Hof began practising his breathing techniques, his adrenaline levels skyrocketed.
...
....while performing the breathing techniques, the trainees showed higher adrenaline levels than the controls - higher even than the adrenaline produced by a person's first bungee jump. "They produced more adrenaline just by lying in bed than somebody standing in front of an abyss going to jump in fear for the first time", says Hof.

 

[Lenin]

@Lenin
https://www.wimhofmethod.com/uploads/kcfinder/files/biology-now-chapter-22-Wim-Hof.pdf
Kox measured the levels of a stress hormone called cortisol in Hof's blood. Hof's blood after the ice, breathing, and meditation regimen contained far higher levels of cortisol than before.
...
Kox measured Hof's blood levels for hormones and cytokines. Kox then compared Hof's results to those of a control group of 112 healthy volunteers who had previously taken the same test. To the scientists' surprise, as soon as Hof began practising his breathing techniques, his adrenaline levels skyrocketed.
...
....while performing the breathing techniques, the trainees showed higher adrenaline levels than the controls - higher even than the adrenaline produced by a person's first bungee jump. "They produced more adrenaline just by lying in bed than somebody standing in front of an abyss going to jump in fear for the first time", says Hof.

Well, the man is 61 and counting, and has done pretty impressive cold resistance feats as well as seems to be decently strong compared with most of the old fellows. I mean, in the end this all things are just numbers and text, the question is: is he strong? is he healthy? are they getting stronger?
I mean, if you make your cortisol drop and are a weak and pathetic being and live 70 years, and in the other hand you live 70 years and are strong and capable of several strength and cold resistance feats, it is clear of what's the best option. Or do you think the cortisol level on a specific test during an specific breathing pattern is more valuable? I mean, if you measure a weightlifter by his adrenaline levels, pulse and blood pressure while squatting 200 kilograms, it doesn't seem to be that good, don't you think?

 

[boris]

There was no judgement intended in what I was trying to say. Just defending @Hgreen56's point that it's the result of stress hormones.



....Personally I'm not sure what to think of his method. I used to be a fan, and then against it. Now I'm open to it, but I don't enjoy practising it myself.
I'll wait and see how him and his followers do in a few decades.